Christianity and eternal life

[Ironfist17]

Are there any real Christians here? How do you feel about eternal life? Just imagine that one day scientists will be able to create the elixir of life. Would you drink it to stay forever young? Is it ethical enough for you? I am Christian myself but recently my faith weakened greatly since there are too many terrible things happening in the world. I would've abandoned my faith if I had a chance to live forever (though I still stand for the Christian values).

 

[Gathomas88]

All life ultimately comes to an end sooner or later. Even the universe itself is not eternal (as far as modern physics currently understands, at least).

If I could buy myself a bit more time to experience and explore the world God has created for us, I would. The hereafter will always be waiting.

 

[Radical]

Are there any real Christians here? How do you feel about eternal life? Just imagine that one day scientists will be able to create the elixir of life. Would you drink it to stay forever young? Is it ethical enough for you? I am Christian myself but recently my faith weakened greatly since there are too many terrible things happening in the world. I would've abandoned my faith if I had a chance to live forever (though I still stand for the Christian values).

I'm a Christian, and my feelings on eternal life is pretty unique. I think when you die, you're dead. You don't float off to heaven, you don't walk on golden streets, you don't see God, you don't enter a white light, you don't get super powers, you don't get new knowledge, you don't reincarnate, etc. You're dead.

But, Jesus got a new body after death. He said we also will get new bodies after death. This makes sense to me. My soul has no eyeballs. It has no ears. No feet. No brain. No hands. I don't even think the soul is conscious of the passage of time without the body. A body seems pretty necessary to me.

Scientists will likely one day make the elixir of life. People will one day never die. But so long as scientists have created medical technology, we've also found new ways to kill people. I guarantee you that this elixir, whatever it is, wouldn't be as powerful as you imagine it. It might stop the aging process, but would it stop an atomic bomb? Lets say it does, well what if the head was severed from the body? Maybe it stops that too. Does it stop someone from kidnapping and torturing? Maybe. But all of these things are doubtful. There's no way that science will solve everyone's problems. It hasn't yet. It hasn't even progressed society in the last 500 years.

Also, what is your faith in? "God", sure, but what does that even mean? To be able to throw it away for some magic, futuristic, elixir of life sounds like you don't actually know what Christians are supposed to have faith in. Do you not know that God will give everyone, righteous and unrighteous, new bodies? That you don't stop existing? That God already promises a kind of "magical, futuristic, elixir of life", and then some?

 

[EdwinWillers]

Are there any real Christians here? How do you feel about eternal life? Just imagine that one day scientists will be able to create the elixir of life. Would you drink it to stay forever young? Is it ethical enough for you? I am Christian myself but recently my faith weakened greatly since there are too many terrible things happening in the world. I would've abandoned my faith if I had a chance to live forever (though I still stand for the Christian values).

Would I drink such an elixir as a Christian, knowing eternal life without sin, without sorrow, without tears, forever in His presence awaited me?

I honestly wouldn't entertain the thought for an instant. Nor do I guess I understand why, when one sees all the terrible things that do happen in this world, that have always happened, generation to generation since the beginning, and which will continue to happen - and worsen until His coming - why would one want to abandon their faith in the One able to rescue us from all that for the opportunity to live forever IN it? I don't get that.

On our walks, as we did this evening, my wife and I like to imagine what heaven will be like - perfect bodies, no sickness, no disease, no death... no taxes! And in nature, no weeds, no mosquitoes - no humidity (or at least there better not be ). Animals won't run from us in fear anymore; predators won't threaten us. We like to imagine what the weather will be like, what flowers and trees will look like - the colors, the smells... Haven't a clue what we'll be doing, whether we'll eat and drink, work? But we won't be tempted to sin anymore, we won't stumble into it, worry over it; it'll be gone - forever. Will we be able to fly? That'd be pretty cool.

No anger, no deceit... no politics. And the singing... I can't wait to be part of the heavenly chorus; can you imagine what that will be like?

No more wars; no more terrorism; no more dictators, tyranny, despotism, slavery, discrimination, hatred, riots, shootings, thefts, murders...

There's a reason terrible things happen in this world - and it's because of who currently rules it:
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." John 12:31
"...and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." John 16:11

But while there's no hope for the ruler of this world, there is hope for the Christian:
"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." I Cor 15:51ff

Regardless what terrible things happen here, it'll be worth persevering to the end.

"Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." I Pet 5:8

 

[CrabCake]

Are there any real Christians here? How do you feel about eternal life? Just imagine that one day scientists will be able to create the elixir of life. Would you drink it to stay forever young? Is it ethical enough for you? I am Christian myself but recently my faith weakened greatly since there are too many terrible things happening in the world. I would've abandoned my faith if I had a chance to live forever (though I still stand for the Christian values).

I'm assuming this elixir stops the aging process, not that you will one day be a 500 year old prune who somehow refuses to die.

I'm a strong Christian believer. In fact, I'm in ministry vocationally. Sure, I would drink it in a heartbeat. I don't think it's a faith question at all. Christianity does not teach escaping from this life, that's a gnostic idea which has nothing to do with the Christianity the bible talks about and the disciples preached. Christianity teaches that the creator God will one day return to renew and restore his creation and solve the problem of evil once and for all. That being the case, whether you take the elixir or not does not have any effect on your ultimate destination; you will still inherit the Earth some day upon Christ's return. So, this just becomes a question of how tired of life you are and whether you prefer to go wait for the second coming in heaven or continue to serve God for longer here. Personally, I love life and wouldn't choose to give it up unless my circumstances took some drastic turns for the worse.

Let me reverse the question. If you have something in front of you that can save your life and you choose not to use it, how is this not suicide? What makes you think that suicide is what God would want you to do in this case? An elixir that "cures" aging should be treated the same way you would an elixir that cures cancer...use it if you need it! (of course I'm not taking into account other questions like, how do we stop the Earth from being overpopulated if no one's dying. I'm only referring to theological questions here).

 

[Bodi]

Are there any real Christians here? How do you feel about eternal life? Just imagine that one day scientists will be able to create the elixir of life. Would you drink it to stay forever young? Is it ethical enough for you? I am Christian myself but recently my faith weakened greatly since there are too many terrible things happening in the world. I would've abandoned my faith if I had a chance to live forever (though I still stand for the Christian values).

Because recently terrible things are happening in the world? :lol:

 

[Bodi]

No anger, no deceit... no politics. And the singing... I can't wait to be part of the heavenly chorus; can you imagine what that will be like?

No more wars; no more terrorism; no more dictators, tyranny, despotism, slavery, discrimination, hatred, riots, shootings, thefts, murders...

Any God worth his salt, and worth worshipping, would not allow so many millions of innocent people die for no reason... seems like God is really an asshole.

 

[countryboy]

I'm a Christian, and my feelings on eternal life is pretty unique. I think when you die, you're dead. You don't float off to heaven, you don't walk on golden streets, you don't see God, you don't enter a white light, you don't get super powers, you don't get new knowledge, you don't reincarnate, etc. You're dead.

But, Jesus got a new body after death. He said we also will get new bodies after death. This makes sense to me. My soul has no eyeballs. It has no ears. No feet. No brain. No hands. I don't even think the soul is conscious of the passage of time without the body. A body seems pretty necessary to me.

Scientists will likely one day make the elixir of life. People will one day never die. But so long as scientists have created medical technology, we've also found new ways to kill people. I guarantee you that this elixir, whatever it is, wouldn't be as powerful as you imagine it. It might stop the aging process, but would it stop an atomic bomb? Lets say it does, well what if the head was severed from the body? Maybe it stops that too. Does it stop someone from kidnapping and torturing? Maybe. But all of these things are doubtful. There's no way that science will solve everyone's problems. It hasn't yet. It hasn't even progressed society in the last 500 years.

Also, what is your faith in? "God", sure, but what does that even mean? To be able to throw it away for some magic, futuristic, elixir of life sounds like you don't actually know what Christians are supposed to have faith in. Do you not know that God will give everyone, righteous and unrighteous, new bodies? That you don't stop existing? That God already promises a kind of "magical, futuristic, elixir of life", and then some?

Soooo, you're a "Christian" who doesn't believe in Christianity? Neat trick that.

 

[Radical]

Soooo, you're a "Christian" who doesn't believe in Christianity? Neat trick that.

I'm a Christian who denies Platonistic corruption. I think we have souls, I think we're Resurrected, I think Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the holy Trinity, and by his wounds we are healed. There is nothing within the doctrine of salvation that demands I think the soul receives superpowers upon death.

 

[countryboy]

I'm a Christian who denies Platonistic corruption. I think we have souls, I think we're Resurrected, I think Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the holy Trinity, and by his wounds we are healed. There is nothing within the doctrine of salvation that demands I think the soul receives superpowers upon death.

There is nothing in the Word that demands anything. But you either believe His Word, or you don't. The Bible states when a believer dies, he is absent from the body, present with The Lord. What do you suppose that means?

 

[EdwinWillers]

Any God worth his salt, and worth worshipping, would not allow so many millions of innocent people die for no reason... seems like God is really an asshole.

And yet that same God, not regarding His own status as God as something to be grasped, humbled Himself, taking human form, and although totally innocent Himself, allowed Himself to be put to death in one of the most painful, torturous, and demeaning ways possible.

That "asshole" (as you put it) understands like neither your nor I will ever understand (I hope, anyway) what the tragic, painful death of an innocent person truly means.

Moreover, there is no such thing as a "causeless death." Every death has a reason - be it accidental, the result of disease, of foul play, or of the sadistic fantasies of our worst psychopaths. Death is something we all face. There is no cheating death; I don't care if you're Mother Theresa or Adolf Hitler, guilty or innocent we will all die one day. It might be peacefully, in our sleep, nightmarishly at the hand of some sicko, or slowly racked by disease or cancer. We WILL die. And we WILL die, regardless our supposed "innocence" or "goodness."

We KNOW this life is temporary - our average life expectancy being what, about 66 years?

If eternity is real, and I believe most of us believe it is, religious or no. How important is a 66 year life span here compared to an eternity... elsewhere?

If eternity is real; if we really will live forever beyond this life and that 66 years spent here is but a drop in the infinite ocean of time - then what is our real purpose here? To be happy? To see if we can live to 70? 80? 100?

 

[Radical]

There is nothing in the Word that demands anything. But you either believe His Word, or you don't. The Bible states when a believer dies, he is absent from the body, present with The Lord. What do you suppose that means?

That he's dead, and his spirit has gone back from whence it came. It does not mean that he's conscious of any of this.

Ecc. 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (the grave), to which you are going.

What do you suppose that means?

 

[countryboy]

That he's dead, and his spirit has gone back from whence it came. It does not mean that he's conscious of any of this.

Ecc. 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (the grave), to which you are going.

What do you suppose that means?

Hmmm, that's a good question. But what of the many other verses that seem to indicate consciousness after death? What of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Or what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "this day you will be with me in paradise"? Could an unconscious void really be described as "paradise"?

 

[Radical]

Hmmm, that's a good question. But what of the many other verses that seem to indicate consciousness after death? What of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Or what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "this day you will be with me in paradise"? Could an unconscious void really be described as "paradise"?

I don't think there are verses that indicate consciousness after death. I just think that interpretation of the passage has been the norm for forever. You actually do get random people popping up in the early church advocating what I believe, but they have always, always been the minority.

The rich man and lazarus is a parable. It's told in the exact same style as a parable and even has that "bang" at the end with "if did not believe Moses and the prophets, they would not believe a man back from the dead" (hint hint Jesus). So I think the story is not an eyewitness account from Lazarus, but instead a parable.

The thief on the cross actually presents more of a problem for consciousness-after-death than for me. Jesus says "today I will be with you in paradise", but then when Jesus dies, he descends to hell for three days (1 Peter 3). How can the thief be with Jesus in paradise if Jesus is in hell? There are two options. The first is that there is this giant, complex spirit world where "prison" and "paradise" are really the same place, but some have hope and others don't. This has no biblical support, and is entirely created to solve this seeming paradox.

I choose the second option. If death is unconscious existence, then when the thief is resurrected, he will think it was the same day. Relative to the thief, it is the same day. It would be as if you went to bed and in the morning Jesus was giving you the wake up call (and in the Hebrew understanding of "day", 00:00 was sundown, not midnight). This also allows me to say that there is not two judgments. Most people say there is a judgment when you die and then another judgment at resurrection. I can say "that's the same judgment", because when I die, I believe the next thing I experience is resurrection.

 

[CrabCake]

You actually do get random people popping up in the early church advocating what I believe, but they have always, always been the minority.

Not just random people. People like Martin Luther and William Tyndale were proponents of that view. It usually goes hand in hand with Christian Mortalism. It's a view that has always had proponents going as far back as at least the 3rd century when, according to Eusebius, Origen took part in a synod to address this issue and changed the opinion of those dissenters.

It should be noted however, that the church has always considered this view to be heretical (that means it goes against orthodox teaching on the matter). It almost certainly was not something the early disciples taught. In fact, in describing the synod mentioned earlier, Eusebius refers to that teaching as being "foreign to the truth" and calls those who held those teachings but had now changed their mind thanks to Origen "formerly fallen".

Today only the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses promote this view.

Jesus says "today I will be with you in paradise", but then when Jesus dies, he descends to hell for three days (1 Peter 3).

1 Peter 3 does not say what you claim it does. It gives absolutely no time frame for when Jesus went to "make the proclamation to the imprisoned spirits". It does not say he spent 3 days doing it or that it occurred in the three days prior to being resurrected.

How can the thief be with Jesus in paradise if Jesus is in hell? There are two options.

There are countless options once we see what the bible actually says as compared to what you claim it says.

1. The "proclamation to imprisoned spirits" could have occurred after his bodily resurrection.
2. The "proclamation to imprisoned spirits" could have been one of many things he did throughout his stay in heaven.
3. The "proclamation to imprisoned spirits" could have taken just one day and the other two he spent with the thief on the cross.
4. The "proclamation to imprisoned spirits" might not refer to people who were in hell at all (it never says hell, it says "imprisoned spirits").
5. etc. etc..

The possibilities are endless once we read the actual bible instead of taking your word for what it says.

 

[zyzygy]

And yet that same God, not regarding His own status as God as something to be grasped, humbled Himself, taking human form, and although totally innocent Himself, allowed Himself to be put to death in one of the most painful, torturous, and demeaning ways possible.

According to an old story in an old storybook.

 

[tosca1]

Are there any real Christians here? How do you feel about eternal life? Just imagine that one day scientists will be able to create the elixir of life. Would you drink it to stay forever young? Is it ethical enough for you? I am Christian myself but recently my faith weakened greatly since there are too many terrible things happening in the world. I would've abandoned my faith if I had a chance to live forever (though I still stand for the Christian values).

Will I drink the elixir to stay young forever? Most probably not.
The longer one stays in this world - the longer it is to battle all the temptations this world will offer, and the more pitfalls one has to navigate carefully from falling into. That gets too exhausting.

Forever young in a beautiful world is one thing - but in an ugly world? And it seems to even get uglier as we move "onward?"
What is there to live forever for?


Nah - I'll pass this one. I'll wait for the the one that will be established by Christ, and hopefully I'll be allowed to live in it. Forever.

 

[Bodi]

And yet that same God, not regarding His own status as God as something to be grasped, humbled Himself, taking human form, and although totally innocent Himself, allowed Himself to be put to death in one of the most painful, torturous, and demeaning ways possible.

That "asshole" (as you put it) understands like neither your nor I will ever understand (I hope, anyway) what the tragic, painful death of an innocent person truly means.

We don't know that Jesus was actually a God or not... that said, that has nothing to do with God allowing innocent babies to be raped and strangled to death by some creepy freak. For him to make us in his image, giving us logic, and then to do things that are illogical and just expect us to accept it is the opposite of the gifts he gave us and is literally retarded.

Moreover, there is no such thing as a "causeless death." Every death has a reason - be it accidental, the result of disease, of foul play, or of the sadistic fantasies of our worst psychopaths. Death is something we all face. There is no cheating death; I don't care if you're Mother Theresa or Adolf Hitler, guilty or innocent we will all die one day. It might be peacefully, in our sleep, nightmarishly at the hand of some sicko, or slowly racked by disease or cancer. We WILL die. And we WILL die, regardless our supposed "innocence" or "goodness."

...and apparently that is God's plan no matter how ridiculous it sounds... right?

We KNOW this life is temporary - our average life expectancy being what, about 66 years?

If eternity is real, and I believe most of us believe it is, religious or no. How important is a 66 year life span here compared to an eternity... elsewhere?

If eternity is real; if we really will live forever beyond this life and that 66 years spent here is but a drop in the infinite ocean of time - then what is our real purpose here? To be happy? To see if we can live to 70? 80? 100?

To put us on earth for 70 years out of eternity again... makes no sense. That we are randomly here makes far more sense.

 

[Logicman]

We don't know that Jesus was actually a God or not... that said, that has nothing to do with God allowing innocent babies to be raped and strangled to death by some creepy freak...

You skeptics still can't answer the question:

If you're God, how do you create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to commit evil acts (killing babies, etc.) if he chooses.

Answer the question?

 

[Bodi]

You skeptics still can't answer the question:

If you're God, how do you create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to commit evil acts (killing babies, etc.) if he chooses.

Answer the question?

That is the flaw in the argument FOR God... Free Will. There is no way to answer that question because it is fallicious.

Logical Fallacies» False Dilemma / Bifurcation Fallacy

There is obviously a third option. God did not create man.

 

[Logicman]

That is the flaw in the argument FOR God... Free Will. There is no way to answer that question because it is fallicious.

Logical Fallacies» False Dilemma / Bifurcation Fallacy

There is obviously a third option. God did not create man.

It's the Bible you're arguing against, not a logical fallacy. You mentioned Jesus and in the same vein talked about God and him putting us on the earth for 70 years. That's the Biblical God.

So don't try to skate - answer the question: If you're God, how do you create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to commit evil acts (killing babies, etc.) if he chooses?

 

[Bodi]

It's the Bible you're arguing against, not a logical fallacy. You mentioned Jesus and in the same vein talked about God and him putting us on the earth for 70 years. That's the Biblical God.

So don't try to skate - answer the question: If you're God, how do you create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to commit evil acts (killing babies, etc.) if he chooses?

This post doesn't even make sense. You presented a Biblical argument that is a logical fallacy. There is no skating around that so I pointed it out.

 

[Logicman]

This post doesn't even make sense. You presented a Biblical argument that is a logical fallacy. There is no skating around that so I pointed it out.

Well, when you want to bad-mouth the Biblical God then when I see it you're going to get that question posed right back at you again. You may not want to answer it but those who read these posts will realize you can't deal with the question in a credible way.

 

[Bodi]

Well, when you want to bad-mouth the Biblical God then when I see it you're going to get that question posed right back at you again. You may not want to answer it but those who read these posts will realize you can't deal with the question in a credible way.

It is a logical fallacy designed to defend God by making God absolved of all wrong doing in the universe that he created...

 

[Goshin]

Are there any real Christians here? How do you feel about eternal life? Just imagine that one day scientists will be able to create the elixir of life. Would you drink it to stay forever young? Is it ethical enough for you? I am Christian myself but recently my faith weakened greatly since there are too many terrible things happening in the world. I would've abandoned my faith if I had a chance to live forever (though I still stand for the Christian values).

I am a Christian.


The only true eternal life is in Christ Jesus, and is of the spirit and not the body.

With that said... it is entirely possible in the next 10-40 years that medical science will devise ways to greatly extend human lifespan and preserve relative youth and health. If such becomes available, I will probably partake of them just as I partake of antibiotics, antivirals, MRI's, and whatever cure is available for whatever ails me.

This has little bearing on my faith, IMO. It is to me more about quality of life. I will still die one day; science will NEVER provide a method of true immortality.

Even if they could give you a lifespan of 1000 years, you'd still die. Even if they could give you an indefinite lifespan, you'd still eventually die by accident, misadventure or violence. In the extreme, even the Earth and the Universe are not going to last forever.

"It is appointed unto Man once to die; and after this, the Judgment."


I mean no offense... but if you can say "I would abandon my faith if...." then I must ask if you ever really had faith to begin with? You need not answer, but I think it would bear some thought.