Christian vs. Christian

[Angel]

Christian vs. Christian

Remember Spy vs. Spy?
The wordless comic strip published in Mad magazine?

This thread reminds me of that comic strip.
But without the good grace of wordlessness.

 

[Daisy]

No we are not.

Tartarus or Hades, or the Hebrew word Gehinnom.

In the Septuagint and New Testament the authors used the Greek term Hades for the Hebrew Sheol, but often with Jewish rather than Greek concepts in mind. In the Jewish concept of Sheol, such as expressed in Ecclesiastes, Sheol or Hades is a place where there is no activity. However, since Augustine, Christians have believed that the souls of those who die either rest peacefully, in the case of Christians, or are afflicted, in the case of the damned, after death until the resurrection.

Hebrew OT Septuagint Greek NT times in NT Vulgate KJV NIV
שְׁאוֹל (Sheol) [38] Ἅιδης (Haïdēs)[39] ᾌδης (Ádēs)[40] x10[41] infernus[42] Hell Hades
גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם (Ge Hinom)[43] Εννομ (Ennom)[44] γέεννα (géenna)[45] x11[46] infernus Hell Hell
(Not applicable) (Not applicable) Ταρταρόω (Tartaróō)[47] x1 infernus Hell Hell
While these three terms are translated in the KJV as "hell" these three terms have three very different meanings.

Hades has similarities to the Old Testament term, Sheol as "the place of the dead" or "grave". Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.

Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnom", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.


Some modern Christian theologians subscribe to the doctrines of conditional immortality. Conditional immortality is the belief that the soul dies with the body and does not live again until the resurrection. As with other Jewish writings of the Second Temple period, the New Testament text distinguishes two words, both translated "Hell" in older English Bibles: Hades, "the grave", and Gehenna where God "can destroy both body and soul". A minority of Christians read this to mean that neither Hades nor Gehenna are eternal but refer to the ultimate destruction of the wicked in the Lake of Fire in a consuming fire after resurrection. However, because of the Greek words used in translating from the Hebrew text has become confused with Greek myths and ideas. In the Hebrew text when people died they went to Sheol, the grave and the wicked ultimately went to Gehenna which is the consuming by fire. So we see where the grave or death or eventual destruction of the wicked, was translated using Greek words that since they had no exact ones to use, became a mix of mistranslation, pagan influence, and Greek myth associated with the word, but its original meaning was simple death or the destruction of the wicked at the end.

Christian mortalism is the doctrine that all men and women, including Christians, must die, and do not continue and are not conscious after death. Therefore, annihilationism includes the doctrine that "the wicked" are also destroyed rather than tormented forever in traditional "Hell" or the lake of fire. Christian mortalism and annihilationism are directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life at the second coming of Christ and resurrection of the dead.

Biblical scholars looking at the issue through the Hebrew text have denied the teaching of innate immortality. Rejection of the immortality of the soul, and advocacy of Christian mortalism, ...

The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God" (CCC 1035). During an Audience in 1999, Pope John Paul II commented: "images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

 

[crazyme]

Why do some Fundamentalist Christians believe Catholics are going to hell?

On what Biblical principles are Fundamental Christians making these claims?

 

[Logician Man]

On what Biblical principles are Fundamental Christians making these claims?

Ask a Fundamentalist Christian to answer that.I am not one of them. I've just seen them make the claim.

 

[Davey]

Why do some Fundamentalist Christians believe Catholics are going to hell?

The mainstream way of looking at it is there are Catholics, and there are Protestants.

Both are Christian. Within the Protestant group, you have your Pentecostals, Baptist, Assembly of God, Methodist, certainly Lutheran, Church of Christ, all these different mainstream denominations, Faith Free Evangelical.

The Protestants believe in one Central truth, and that is that Jesus is the son of God, died on the cross at Calvary for our sins, was resurrected three days later after fighting Satan for the keys of hell and death, and now he sits at the right hand of God interceding on our behalf when we pray through Jesus to get to God.

Protestants believe that we need to acknowledge to God we are sinners, ask Jesus to come into our lives to be Lord and Savior, and that's pretty much mainstream agreement.

Where the difference is, and this is where people on the outside looking in think that all Christians do is a bunch of in fighting because we can never agree on anything.

Most Christians agree that main Central truth of which I just stated above. Where the difference is that some will celebrate communion every week, some once a quarter, some believe you need to be baptized to be saved, some believe you don't need to be baptized to be saved.

Some speak in tongues, some don’t.

There's all these differences of worshiping, because most churches in the Protestant denomination are autonomous, meaning they don't have a hierarchy to answer to. Locally on their own they decide how they're going to run their own church and how they are going to worship.

Most even search for, interview and hire their own Pastors.

The Catholic have common ground with Protestants in that they believe that Jesus is Lord also, born of the virgin Mary and died on the cross for us.

Of course they have the Pope.

Their differences come in where they believe that you must be baptized to be saved. They believe that after you die, that your relatives can pay a priest to pray for that person's soul, and if they weren't going to heaven when they died, they can go to heaven if the priest pray’s their soul into heaven.

That it is a huge different with Protestants, because that totally negates the cross.
Catholics also tend to put Mary the mother of Jesus, Peter, John, and Paul way up there on the scale of importance, so much so that they pray to them.

Protestants believe that we only pray to Jesus.

Several other differences but I can only have so many characters for each post. Questions just ask.

 

[Logician Man]

The mainstream way of looking at it is there are Catholics, and there are Protestants.

Both are Christian. Within the Protestant group, you have your Pentecostals, Baptist, Assembly of God, Methodist, certainly Lutheran, Church of Christ, all these different mainstream denominations, Faith Free Evangelical.

The Protestants believe in one Central truth, and that is that Jesus is the son of God, died on the cross at Calvary for our sins, was resurrected three days later after fighting Satan for the keys of hell and death, and now he sits at the right hand of God interceding on our behalf when we pray through Jesus to get to God.

Protestants believe that we need to acknowledge to God we are sinners, ask Jesus to come into our lives to be Lord and Savior, and that's pretty much mainstream agreement.

Where the difference is, and this is where people on the outside looking in think that all Christians do is a bunch of in fighting because we can never agree on anything.

Most Christians agree that main Central truth of which I just stated above. Where the difference is that some will celebrate communion every week, some once a quarter, some believe you need to be baptized to be saved, some believe you don't need to be baptized to be saved.

Some speak in tongues, some don’t.

There's all these differences of worshiping, because most churches in the Protestant denomination are autonomous, meaning they don't have a hierarchy to answer to. Locally on their own they decide how they're going to run their own church and how they are going to worship.

Most even search for, interview and hire their own Pastors.

The Catholic have common ground with Protestants in that they believe that Jesus is Lord also, born of the virgin Mary and died on the cross for us.

Of course they have the Pope.

Their differences come in where they believe that you must be baptized to be saved. They believe that after you die, that your relatives can pay a priest to pray for that person's soul, and if they weren't going to heaven when they died, they can go to heaven if the priest pray’s their soul into heaven.

That it is a huge different with Protestants, because that totally negates the cross.
Catholics also tend to put Mary the mother of Jesus, Peter, John, and Paul way up there on the scale of importance, so much so that they pray to them.

Protestants believe that we only pray to Jesus.

Several other differences but I can only have so many characters for each post. Questions just ask.

It is also my understanding that Protestants are more into Salvation by Faith,whereas Catholics are more into Salvation by Works. Another point of contention between the two.As an outsider ( skeptic),I would have to go with the Catholics on this one.

 

[Daisy]

It is also my understanding that Protestants are more into Salvation by Faith,whereas Catholics are more into Salvation by Works. Another point of contention between the two.As an outsider ( skeptic),I would have to go with the Catholics on this one.

Hiya LM...James points out that one without the other is dead/useless/not acceptable to God...he makes it clear that our faith is a verb, not a noun...

"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead." James 2:14-17

 

[Logician Man]

Hiya LM...James points out that one without the other is dead/useless/not acceptable to God...he makes it clear that our faith is a verb, not a noun...

"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead." James 2:14-17

Well..I'm 1/2 way there..My 'works' resume is pretty good.

 

[Daisy]

Well..I'm 1/2 way there..My 'works' resume is pretty good.

Now all ya gotta have is faith...we'll convert ya yet...:giggle1:

 

[Logician Man]

Now all ya gotta have is faith...we'll convert ya yet...:giggle1:

eace

 

[Davey]

It is also my understanding that Protestants are more into Salvation by Faith,whereas Catholics are more into Salvation by Works. Another point of contention between the two.As an outsider ( skeptic),I would have to go with the Catholics on this one.

Excellent point and yes, that is a point of difference. The book of James talks about Faith without works is dead. James would need to be a separate thread.

I personally lean toward Faith by Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8,9,10 says it is by grace you are saved through Faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of any works, least any man should boast.

Meaning men being men, if some do more works than others, they will start bragging and trouble would follow. God doesn't want division. It's not His way.

He also says in the last verse of Galations or Colosians, I can't remember, He says if righteousness came by the law (doing works out of duty), then Christ died in vain. IOW, if we could work our way to heaven, Christ would not have had to die for our Salvation.

There's merit to both sides. After much much study and even more prayer, that is what I have concluded.

 

[Logician Man]

Excellent point and yes, that is a point of difference. The book of James talks about Faith without works is dead. James would need to be a separate thread.

I personally lean toward Faith by Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8,9,10 says it is by grace you are saved through Faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of any works, least any man should boast.

Meaning men being men, if some do more works than others, they will start bragging and trouble would follow. God doesn't want division. It's not His way.

He also says in the last verse of Galations or Colosians, I can't remember, He says if righteousness came by the law (doing works out of duty), then Christ died in vain. IOW, if we could work our way to heaven, Christ would not have had to die for our Salvation.

There's merit to both sides. After much much study and even more prayer, that is what I have concluded.

I got booted from my own Lutheran confirmation because I refused to give the 'rubber stamped catechism' answers the Church Elders and Pastor were expecting from me,opting to give honest answers as I perceived them.I thought my mom was going to have a heart attack! :lamo

 

[Davey]

I got booted from my own Lutheran confirmation because I refused to give the 'rubber stamped catechism' answers the Church Elders and Pastor were expecting from me,opting to give honest answers as I perceived them.I thought my mom was going to have a heart attack! :lamo

You rebel you lol

 

[Davey]

eace

As long as a person is informed correctly, and then decided to go the JW way (as an example), I would encourage all to exercise their free will God has given us.

All should also know the JW's are not Christian.

They believe Jesus is the Archangel Michael for Pete's sake!

What James is talking about faith without works is dead, meaning that if you truly are saved, and have committed your life over to Christ, the natural growth of that person is going to be wanting to go out and do good for others.

It's not commanded to do it, it just will naturally show itself. You will know them the Bible says, and you will know them by their fruits.

So when the Inner Man or woman gives their life to Christ, and they start having a personal relationship with Him, we start becoming more Christ-like.

Jesus always did for others, as matter of fact he was the ultimate servant. We are called to be servants in the Name of Christ. But from a warm, caring heart, naturally.

JW’s do it like punching in and out of a factory, they are expected to do it, and if they don’t, they are severely frowned upon within their circle.

So that type of witness is more out of duty to them.

So to have it as if it is a law, that you have to go door-to-door to talk to people about Jesus whether you want to or not, or whether you have to do this, or whether you have to do that, in order to get to heaven, no that is not what James means.

He said if you sincerely give your life to Christ, the natural growth of that would be outwardly you're going to start doing more for your fellow brothers and sisters naturally, not as a prerequisite to Heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

A gift is free. God’s gift to us is free. It has been bought and paid for on the cross by His Son Jesus and His death.

Galatians 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Meaning if a person can work their way to Heaven, then there was no reason for God to sacrifice His Son. Suggesting works is critically necessary for Salvation nullifies the death on the Cross.

There is no other way to Heaven but through Jesus only! That is mainstream Christian belief. JW do not believe that, making them JW's but not Christian. They try to associate themselves with the Christian name to make themselves look mainstream, but they are a cult folks.

 

[Logician Man]

As long as a person is informed correctly, and then decided to go the JW way (as an example), I would encourage all to exercise their free will God has given us. All should also know the JW's are not Christian.

They believe Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael for Pete's sake!

What James is talking about faith without works is dead, meaning that if you truly are saved, and have committed your life over to Christ, the natural growth of that person is going to be wanting to go out and do good for others.

It's not commanded to do it, it just will naturally show itself. You will know them the Bible says, and you will know them by their fruits.

So when the Inner Man or woman gives their life to Christ, and they start having a personal relationship with Him, we start becoming more Christ-like.

Jesus always did for others, as matter of fact he was the ultimate servant. We are called to be servants in the Name of Christ. But from a warm, caring heart, naturally.

JW’s do it like punching in and out of a factory, they are expected to do it, and if they don’t, they are severely frowned upon within their circle.

So that type of witness is more out of duty to them.

So to have it as if it is a law, that you have to go door-to-door to talk to people about Jesus whether you want to or not, or whether you have to do this, or whether you have to do that, in order to get to heaven, no that is not what James means.

He said if you sincerely give your life to Christ, the natural growth of that would be outwardly you're going to start doing more for your fellow brothers and sisters naturally, not as a prerequisite to Heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God’s gift to us is free. It has been bought and paid for on the cross by His Son Jesus and His death.

Galatians 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Meaning if a person can work their way to Heaven, then there was no reason for God to sacrifice His Son. Suggesting works is critically necessary for Salvation nullifies the death on the Cross.

There is no other way to Heaven but through Jesus only! That is mainstream Christian belief. JW do not believe that, making them JW's but not Christian. They try to associate themselves with the Christian name to make themselves look mainstream, but they are a cult folks.

your opinion only

 

[Davey]

your opinion only

Not so much with JW's not being Christian. Any bible believing Christian from leaders down to the lay people, all recognize what the Bible says regarding Salvation.

There is only one way to Heaven, it is not through witnessing, not through works, it is a one on one personal relationship with God, and that can only be through His Son Jesus.

Most other times I would agree with you that it is Just my opinion. However on this subject regarding Salvation, I humbly have to say I am correct scripturally.

 

[Logician Man]

Not so much with JW's not being Christian. Any bible believing Christian from leaders down to the lay people, all recognize what the Bible says regarding Salvation.

There is only one way to Heaven, it is not through witnessing, not through works, it is a one on one personal relationship with God, and that can only be through His Son Jesus.

Most other times I would agree with you that it is Just my opinion. However on this subject regarding Salvation, I humbly have to say I am correct scripturally.

you have already displayed your biases on other issues.Case in point:///// the left is slime balls////. I no more trust your interpretation of biblical scripture than I do your silly slandering/blanket statements on matters of political ideology.

 

[Davey]

you have already displayed your biases on other issues.Case in point:///// the left is slime balls////. I no more trust your interpretation of biblical scripture than I do your silly slandering/blanket statements on matters of political ideology.

Are you a Jehova Witness?

 

[Logician Man]

Are you a Jehova Witness?

You've already asked that and I have already answered it.

 

[Davey]

you have already displayed your biases on other issues.Case in point:///// the left is slime balls////. I no more trust your interpretation of biblical scripture than I do your silly slandering/blanket statements on matters of political ideology.

I did say that and I regret it. Again if you stand before God and you say to God 'God, Davey on the internet kept me from you', He is gonna tell you to leave His presence. IOW don't blame me for you not coming to Jesus.

I believe the far left leadership are slime balls, with their constant lying and slandering and the corruption and cover ups being revealed on a daily basis. That is a disgrace to my country. But as a group overall, mostly great people as far as I know.

 

[Davey]

You've already asked that and I have already answered it.

I forgot.

 

[Logician Man]

I forgot.

Then go through your post history.find where you asked it the first time,scroll down and see my response..That should refresh your memory.

 

[Davey]

Then go through your post history.find where you asked it the first time,scroll down and see my response..

Just give me the post number.

 

[Logician Man]

Just give me the post number.

It's your post.Find it yourself.I just told you how to find it.

 

[Davey]

It's your post.Find it yourself.I just told you how to find it.

It's actually your post you want me to read isn't it? If you don't want to put in the work then I don't either. Not germane to this thread I suppose.