Canada demands U.S. end ‘right to work’ laws as part of NAFTA talks

[OlNate]

Probably not, and your not going to tell us how to run our country.

Exactly, so simmer down - as I said, this is likely a bargaining chip to offset something else. At the end of the day, it's just more nonsense, we'll find out when it's over what all sides really thought was important.

 

[OlNate]

Who said anything about stopping trade with Canada? There was trade with Canada before NAFTA, and there will be in any possible post-NAFTA world, too.

Do you think trade is only possible if NAFTA is in force?

Boudreaux did.

In regards to whether or not we could do trade without NAFTA, I mean, possibly, but it would simply mean establishing another trade agreement, as the entwinement of all three countries is to the point where you couldn't conduct trade without one. Trust me, I'm a logistics analyst in the automotive industry, simply to move parts around alone you would have to have some documented agreement between all three countries outlining exactly how to do it. There must be a trade agreement in order to ensure all three economies, whether any of us particularly like it or not.

 

[Harshaw]

Boudreaux did.

In regards to whether or not we could do trade without NAFTA, I mean, possibly, but it would simply mean establishing another trade agreement, as the entwinement of all three countries is to the point where you couldn't conduct trade without one. Trust me, I'm a logistics analyst in the automotive industry, simply to move parts around alone you would have to have some documented agreement between all three countries outlining exactly how to do it. There must be a trade agreement in order to ensure all three economies, whether any of us particularly like it or not.

No, he didn't. He said it would be the end of NAFTA between the US and Canada, not trade.

And that's all well and good, but if Canada is going to implacably tie any agreement to something the US federal government has no authority to grant, then it's Canada who is torpedoing the deal, not the US, and Canada is far more dependent on US/Canada trade than we are.

So, your country would be shooting itself in the foot over something really snotty.

And you seem to think it's the US which should give in.

 

[OlNate]

No, he didn't. He said it would be the end of NAFTA between the US and Canada, not trade.

And that's all well and good, but if Canada is going to implacably tie any agreement to something the US federal government has no authority to grant, then it's Canada who is torpedoing the deal, not the US, and Canada is far more dependent on US/Canada trade than we are.

So, your country would be shooting itself in the foot over something really snotty.

And you seem to think it's the US which should give in.

K, go back and read the thread, and you'll find:

B saying "If that means stopping trade with you? Well. That's your choice, not ours."

And me saying: "this is likely a bargaining chip to offset something else"

And us shooting ourselves in the foot would also mean shooting you in the foot. And Mexico. That's the point. Our feet are on top of each other...lol... That's why we can negotiate, vs. you just coming in and telling us how it's going to be....

 

[Harshaw]

K, go back and read the thread, and you'll find:

B saying "If that means stopping trade with you? Well. That's your choice, not ours."

And me saying: "this is likely a bargaining chip to offset something else"

And us shooting ourselves in the foot would also mean shooting you in the foot. And Mexico. That's the point. Our feet are on top of each other...lol... That's why we can negotiate, vs. you just coming in and telling us how it's going to be....

No, he was responding to the scenario you presented, specifically. You were the one who introduced the idea of stopping trade.

The US automotive industry would survive being cut off from Canada. Your job probably would not survive being cut off from the US automotive industry.

I say this not to be jingoistic, but because it's you who have been peacocking about cutting off trade and why the US should give in to an impossible demand.

 

[OlNate]

No, he was responding to the scenario you presented, specifically. You were the one who introduced the idea of stopping trade.

The US automotive industry would survive being cut off from Canada. Your job probably would not survive being cut off from the US automotive industry.

I say this not to be jingoistic, but because it's you who have been peacocking about cutting off trade and why the US should give in to an impossible demand.

Nobody's peacocking, my initial comment was that NAFTA would not be discarded as nonchalantly as B seemed to be suggesting was what started this conversation. I only point out our interdependence in response to the suggestion that anyone could pull out from this agreement, which further supports the notion that all of this is just bargaining (which I've said a few times now, so I'm a little confused as to why you keep saying I think "the US should give in to an impossible demand". No one is taking their ball and going home.

And I will assume that you understand that the interdependency we share is not limited to the automotive industry, but even if it were limited to that, enjoy your Hyundai's and Hondas (for a good bit more than what they cost now) if you suddenly pull the carpet out from under the US automotive industry by killing NAFTA. The first six months would be so expensive that the only way to save it would be massive government subsidy, and even then...ya...lol... I dunno, man, I don't see, from where I sit, how you think they would manage. It can take 6 months and tens thousands of dollars (hundreds of thousands, if new tooling / equipment is required) to approve a new supplier of rubber gaskets that cost less than a penny...but can stop the assembly line completely if they don't have them. And that's assuming the supplier has capacity to make that gasket, in addition to the orders they are already filling. Again, this is not "peacocking", this is a statement of fact.

Trust me, given how things are going down there, I wish we weren't as in bed together as we are, but we are. Which is why I don't think this is anything more than a tactic, which is meant to drive towards something else. All sides need to huff and puff otherwise we'd be wondering what we pay them for...hehe

 

[SheWolf]

Oh boy....



https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...-laws-as-part-of-nafta-talks/article36160015/


I think that these Nafta negotiations are not going to be pleasant.

I can never understand why Americans don't value labor unions more. Germany has high labor union participation and large manufacturing sector. They also lack the trade deficit that America has. Trade Unions would ensure that all races and nationalities are represented in the labor force, entitled to the same benefits and basic pay. Instead of fair treatment and equality in the labor force, Americans have opted for supply side economics, crushing unions, outsourcing, and argue business owners have a right to discriminate. On top of that, workers think unskilled foreign labor is depressing their wages.

 

[Harshaw]

Nobody's peacocking, my initial comment was that NAFTA would not be discarded as nonchalantly as B seemed to be suggesting was what started this conversation. I only point out our interdependence in response to the suggestion that anyone could pull out from this agreement, which further supports the notion that all of this is just bargaining (which I've said a few times now, so I'm a little confused as to why you keep saying I think "the US should give in to an impossible demand". No one is taking their ball and going home.

And I will assume that you understand that the interdependency we share is not limited to the automotive industry, but even if it were limited to that, enjoy your Hyundai's and Hondas (for a good bit more than what they cost now) if you suddenly pull the carpet out from under the US automotive industry by killing NAFTA. The first six months would be so expensive that the only way to save it would be massive government subsidy, and even then...ya...lol... I dunno, man, I don't see, from where I sit, how you think they would manage. It can take 6 months and tens thousands of dollars (hundreds of thousands, if new tooling / equipment is required) to approve a new supplier of rubber gaskets that cost less than a penny...but can stop the assembly line completely if they don't have them. And that's assuming the supplier has capacity to make that gasket, in addition to the orders they are already filling. Again, this is not "peacocking", this is a statement of fact.

Trust me, given how things are going down there, I wish we weren't as in bed together as we are, but we are. Which is why I don't think this is anything more than a tactic, which is meant to drive towards something else. All sides need to huff and puff otherwise we'd be wondering what we pay them for...hehe

You were most definitely dismissing the point - Canada's demand - as trivial.

If Canada holds firm on the demand, then Canada is wrong, and it will be Canada who scuttles the agreement.

 

[JANFU]

Whoever in the Canadian government that said that, or came up with that idea, has absolutely no idea how the US system of government works (a Constitutional Republic), or how our Constitution is laid out and how it LIMITS the power of the federal government.

If that's a go-no go point for NAFTA and the Canadians, well then, NAFTA with the Canadians and the US, is done.

I heard it and it is just a negotiating ploy. Thing is to raise job standards in Mexico is where it is directed at.
Next- when you open negotiations, all sorts of things are thrown on the table, or against the wall, pun not intended, to see what sticks.

 

[cuban smokes]

I can never understand why Americans don't value labor unions more. Germany has high labor union participation and large manufacturing sector. They also lack the trade deficit that America has. Trade Unions would ensure that all races and nationalities are represented in the labor force, entitled to the same benefits and basic pay. Instead of fair treatment and equality in the labor force, Americans have opted for supply side economics, crushing unions, outsourcing, and argue business owners have a right to discriminate. On top of that, workers think unskilled foreign labor is depressing their wages.

Ronnie RayGun initiated the broader demise of unions in the US by busting the air traffic controllers union PATCO.

BIG business in the US took note & unions got **** on like syrup on pancakes.

Rot in Hell Ronnie .........

 

[cuban smokes]

Outside of the US there is no country with the means to invade Canada. To even attempt to make Canada safe from an attack, meaning missile strike or air strikes would bankrupt Canada. There is no need for Canada to have hundreds of military bases across the world and try to state it is for "defense". A military base in Qatar does nothing to protect North America

BUT it is one of about 40 US bases that surround Iran .............. huh ...........

 

[cuban smokes]

And yet you work there? I don't think they can legally take away someone's vacation time if it's company policy.

depends on the state ........

 

[cuban smokes]

I work for a company that has been building Navy equipment since WWI, now located in coastal Georgia. We had an meeting about the hurricane on Thursday. After the speech by the president, HR reminded us that even though we could not come to work Monday or Tuesday, we would need to use vacation or personal time to cover that. This was true of hurricane Mathew last year. And if you didn't have enough time on the books, it would be deducted from the next years allotted hours.
It's not a horrible place to work. We have good health benefits, matching IRA funds to 6%. It is challenging work, we build cool stuff, but they cut people like they served no real purpose and then act surprised when others can't fulfill that function on top of the job they already had. This is all to serve a business model based entirely upon revenue and growth. If we can't meet projected revenue, regardless of how inflated, then cuts will be made, raises will be put off and bonuses, well those were the first thing to go.

'lean manufacturing' = it's all about the stock holders ......... not the workers .................

 

[KevinKohler]

I can never understand why Americans don't value labor unions more. Germany has high labor union participation and large manufacturing sector. They also lack the trade deficit that America has. Trade Unions would ensure that all races and nationalities are represented in the labor force, entitled to the same benefits and basic pay. Instead of fair treatment and equality in the labor force, Americans have opted for supply side economics, crushing unions, outsourcing, and argue business owners have a right to discriminate. On top of that, workers think unskilled foreign labor is depressing their wages.

Yeah, and every couple a years, they make more and more of their manufactured **** in countries not called Germany.

 

[cuban smokes]

Boudreaux did.

In regards to whether or not we could do trade without NAFTA, I mean, possibly, but it would simply mean establishing another trade agreement, as the entwinement of all three countries is to the point where you couldn't conduct trade without one. Trust me, I'm a logistics analyst in the automotive industry, simply to move parts around alone you would have to have some documented agreement between all three countries outlining exactly how to do it. There must be a trade agreement in order to ensure all three economies, whether any of us particularly like it or not.

and anyone with half a brain would think that Trump could grasp such a concept

I'm sure Trump does understand that but his base was played like a fiddle by Trump's campaign bull**** concerning NAFTA & trade agreements thus proving that Trump's base are actually the ones with <half a brain

Trump was voted into office by a bunch of brainless hillbillies ...............

 

[KevinKohler]

Basically, Canada is trying to level the playing field, so that jobs don't leak out of Canada and into the US.

But then, say we do that...what do WE demand of Mexico? You know, to keep THAT playing field level?

 

[KevinKohler]

and anyone with half a brain would think that Trump could grasp such a concept

I'm sure Trump does understand that but his base was played like a fiddle by Trump's campaign bull**** concerning NAFTA & trade agreements thus proving that Trump's base are actually the ones with <half a brain

Trump was voted into office by a bunch of brainless hillbillies ...............

There you go, Cuban. You keep that up. Keep calling half the country brainless hillbillies.

 

[cuban smokes]

There you go, Cuban. You keep that up. Keep calling half the country brainless hillbillies.

~60 million would only be about ~19% ................. all pure hillbilly ................. still have about 31% left to meet "half the country"

we just learned there are much less hillbillies in the US than you thought

that calls for celebration :monkey

 

[calamity]

There you go, Cuban. You keep that up. Keep calling half the country brainless hillbillies.

Trump's base certainly fit the mold. Hicks, hillbillies, racists, homophobes, xenophobia, misogynists, and easily conned by Russian fed fake news.

 

[KevinKohler]

And how many people who voted for him right here on DP are you calling brainless hillbillies, xenophobes, easily conned?

 

[OlNate]

You were most definitely dismissing the point - Canada's demand - as trivial.

If Canada holds firm on the demand, then Canada is wrong, and it will be Canada who scuttles the agreement.

Yes, I was most definitely dismissing the point - Canada's demand - as trivial, because I don't believe it was ever serious to begin with. But, if the American negotiation team continues with the BS rhetoric coming out of Trump's mouth surrounding the deal, then expect it to be tougher to reach a consensus, because in this Mexican standoff (excuse the pun) there is no clear side that holds any advantage that wouldn't hurt them as much as their "opponent".

Frankly, you guys are dumb to even want to mess with it, in regards to anything going on with Canada. Consider the following (scroll down to the breakout of top 5 trading partner trade volumes vs. deficit if you don't feel like reading the whole thing):

https://www.thebalance.com/trade-deficit-by-county-3306264

When you take into consideration our population, compared to the populations of the other 4, you can see that we have an excellent thing going, and you probably shouldn't fix what isn't broken, lest someone take the opportunity to try to get an upgrade. This whole thing is happening because Trump wants to dispel the myth of his small hands, and he's quickly finding that despite our reputation for politeness, we're no pushovers. Neither is Mexico (have they paid for that wall yet, by the way?). Everyone has basically been playing nice, until this jackass started stirring the pot. I agree you have problems with Mexico, but if you think Canada owes you guys anything, or has been anything other than a top shelf trade partner, you (universal you, not saying you specifically, Harsh, of course) are ****ed in the head.

 

[Fishking]

LOL ......... **** Trump & his NAFTA bull**** .................... Trump will destroy the American farmer as we know it & let Trump take credit for that .............. those American farmers that Trump will destroy are part of Trump's ****ty base ........................... **** them ................... good for them ................ they voted for prick Trump ................

^----That's not unhinged.

 

[trblmkr]

'lean manufacturing' = it's all about the stock holders ......... not the workers .................

It was the 2nd week of December 2015 and they called it "right sizing". That made it sooo much better.

 

[VanceMack]

As an employer, I can tell you that if they killed right to work laws I would never hire a full time employee ever again. Killing Right to Work along with the tax burdens and push to force employers to pay for their employees healthcare...its like the socialists that have never started a business know absolutely nothing ABOUT business.

 

[Yes_Minister]

Whoever in the Canadian government that said that, or came up with that idea, has absolutely no idea how the US system of government works (a Constitutional Republic), or how our Constitution is laid out and how it LIMITS the power of the federal government.

If that's a go-no go point for NAFTA and the Canadians, well then, NAFTA with the Canadians and the US, is done.

Hey man, why should Canadian workers have to compete with lower wages from down South, that's not fair.

Funny how some the arguments Trump made against Mexico, Canada can apply to the US. Canada is also trying to promote higher wages in Mexico and a good way to do that is through unions.

Also I don't think Canada is ignortant of the US system, but in trade talks you have to use all the bargining chips you have and this one Canada can play, maybe Canada drops this demand is exchange for something else.

I think Trump supporters are just mad Canada and Mexico didn't knuckle under instantly.