Burning your own flag is freedom of speech. Burning your neighbors is vandalism

[ecofarm]

Like Pearl Harbor

It was set in war, but more of a rom-com.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Troll.

Sad for you, old friend.

 

[OldFatGuy]

No, shouting "fire" in a movie theater is NOT the same as burning a flag

Flag burning is freedom of speech

The guy that cut the Trump balloon is exactly the reason why the whistle blower's life would be under threat if his/her name were to be revealed.

In your not so humble opinion.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Please show those "often" rulings. You can't. What you have proven is you know **** about the law.

How many of the thousands of court rulings overturning prior court rulings do you require?

Shall we start with the court orders requiring bussing as a tool of desegregation? Or perhaps decisions prohibiting child labor? How about court decisions overthrowing divorce decrees which absolved fathers from alimony and child support because the mother and wife commenced the divorce action

There are stupid demands from debaters in these forums, but you just iced the cake.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Sad for you, old friend.

Don't ever call me friend, troll. You could not be further from who I accept as a friend.

 

[apdst]

I have seen at least two cons writing that taking a knife to the Baby Trump should be covered under free speech, but it is not. SCOTUS has spoken that when you burn your own flag it is covered by the 1st Amendment to the constitution as free speech. To desecrate your neighbors flag is a violation of the law. So when you take a knife to baby Trump you have violated the law, unless you own the balloon. It would never be covered by the 1st Amendment.

This is funny, coming from the folks who sefend attacks on Trump supporters, who are wearing MAGA gear.

There were posters, right here on thos forum, who threatened Adam Sandman with physical violence. His offense: he was wearing a MAGA hat.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Don't ever call me friend, troll. You could not be further from who I accept as a friend.

OK, fat guy.

Sorry you hate and fear the truth.

I find them wonderful!

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Intent does make the difference.

No, agreement or not is never justification, perhaps explanation? But to ignore the complicity of the provocateur is naive at best.

Meanwhile, hyperbole is just that. Neither MLK or Gandhi found violence wherever they delivered their messages. Reality shows both found adulation more often than not, especially in their latter years. No question both died violently for their opinions and provocations, but that does come with the territory, and was not unexpected by either.

So, what do you think Rosa Park's intent was when she refused to give up her seat? She enraged people. She was a provocateur. She broke the law!

What about those black folks who dared to sit at a lunch counter? Tell me what was their intent? And what was the response?

Was MLK provocative? Is that what got him thrown into the Birmingham jail? Did he have it coming? Did he deserve that? Was he complicit?

 

[btthegreat]

Actually they might if it's a hate speech.

There is no such crime in American jurisprudence as engaging in 'hate speech'. They cannot prosecute 'hate speech'. There has to be an underlying crime such as vandalism or murder, or rape, then they tack on some extra penalties as an aggravating factors /circumstances or sentencing enhancements in the sentencing of the original crime and the intent or motive behind the crime may be taken into account in sentencing.
Aggravating and Mitigating Factors in Criminal Sentencing | Justia. Now how does the prosecution prove that the accused deserved hate crime status in his sentence because he was motivated by bias or animus towards a broader class than the specific victim represented? They look at what he said or did either during the crime, or before it, or after it, just like we would any time we want to prove or assert a motive.

So in our hypothetical. First there has to be a crime committed. There is no crime in burning your own flag or popping your own Baby Trump Balloon. There definitely is in burning or destroying someone else's. Or maybe they might charge you with creating a hazard on a public street, or burning that flag outside of a proper burn receptacle ( whatever they can find in the local ordinances on fire code) but there has to be a crime committed beyond a reasonable doubt , before they can enhance the sentence behind it because your intent or motive was particularly despicable. And that aggravating factor deserving of a sentencing enhancement also has to be proved in a separate sentencing hearing, and what you say or do is admissible to prove the aggravating factor just as it was in the trial as a reason you might have wanted to commit the crime.

It's not all that easy to prove that a crime was committed because the accused had animus or malicious intent towards the victim's class. An offhand use of a slur in the commission of the crime, is just not going to cut it. There are too many other reasons why that slur might have been thrown out there other than a group animus. I may have no animus towards blacks as a class at all when I call my victim the 'n' word. But if I also make a habit of it, in circumstances when I don't want to provoke my victim into a fight, but still want to disparage the group, or if I do so routinely in white power forum on line, and I get KKK newsletters delivered to my address...… hmmm. That is a lot of evidence that my use of the 'n' word that day was actual hate speech, and that it reflects animus towards blacks that formed at least part of the motive in committing a crime against a black man.

 

[btthegreat]

This is funny, coming from the folks who sefend attacks on Trump supporters, who are wearing MAGA gear.

There were posters, right here on thos forum, who threatened Adam Sandman with physical violence. His offense: he was wearing a MAGA hat.

See if the FBI is interested in pursuing charges against someone on an internet forum posting an anonymous and vague 'threat' of violence against
Sandman, who was not likely to know such a threat even existed and against whom not the slightest act suggested an attempt to seriously follow through or move forward with a concrete plan to commit an assault. What you have, is a pissed off poster, venting or trolling other posters.

Saying you would grab a baby trump balloon and slice it is not a crime. But grabbing of a sharp object in one hand, and the grabbing of someone else's property in another hand, and shoving that sharp into the side of someone's else's property, with the capacity to understand what was likely to result. That is a crime.

 

[OldFatGuy]

So, what do you think Rosa Park's intent was when she refused to give up her seat? She enraged people. She was a provocateur. She broke the law!

What about those black folks who dared to sit at a lunch counter? Tell me what was their intent? And what was the response?

Was MLK provocative? Is that what got him thrown into the Birmingham jail? Did he have it coming? Did he deserve that? Was he complicit?

IMHO, Rosa wanted a seat with a better view than the backs of other people's heads. She did not want violence, neither did those people wanting a meal. MLK was a man who preferred nonviolence, but what you want is rarely what you get. And he carried a gun. Certainly he was responsible for his actions, and even when guilty in the eyes of the law, but that is not a judgment of his reasons for his actions.

Yes, they were all provocateurs and were as responsible for the reactions they suffered as those who reacted violently. Assignation of responsibility, even guilt in the eyes of the law, has nothing to do with the qualities of reason for those provocations. The assumption that responsibility for the effects of a provocation has anything to do with the underlying merit for that provocation is erroneous. An emotional rather than intellectual evaluation. Confusion from failure of thought.

Laws written by men are written to control, suppress and use as tools of oppression. Breaking those laws to change those laws that are unacceptable may be the only recourse. Are those who break those laws responsible and guilty? Absolutely. Are they right or wrong? That is for history to judge. Or you and I should we decide to join in for breaking those laws. Then we will be responsible and guilty for our actions. However, as we determined, it was the right thing to do.

Now of course, some bozo will come along and claim a thief or murderer can use the same distinction, the same logic. Doesn't make the thief or murderer any less of a thief or murderer. Responsibility and raison d'être are distinct.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

IMHO, Rosa wanted a seat with a better view than the backs of other people's heads. She did not want violence, neither did those people wanting a meal. MLK was a man who preferred nonviolence, but what you want is rarely what you get. And he carried a gun. Certainly he was responsible for his actions, and even when guilty in the eyes of the law, but that is not a judgment of his reasons for his actions.

Now you're just yanking my chain.

You wrote that the intent makes the difference. So if Rosa Parks had burned a flag instead of simply breaking the law, you would say her intent, being the same, justifies her behavior.

And BTW, her intent was not to 'get a seat with a better view.' Your humble opinion is BS. Her intent, as was the intent of MLK and others was to stop America from treating them as second class citizens.

 

[independentusa]

how?

is this nation really any poorer than 3 years ago?

is there any damage he can do that is permanent?

i know some of you believe so, but really i dont....

unless we have a nuclear war....which i give a .0001% chance, the nation will still be here, and we will still continue on

Trump opened some peoples eyes maybe....and he has attacked the "establishment" (whatever that means to some)

He doesnt play by the rules that have been established for decades....

He is a boob, a rube, and a perrenial liar....and this too shall pass

Tell me HOW he has changed your personal life? really....because mine hasnt changed one iota because of him

my taxes may have gone up a smidgen....that is politics....
other than that...nada nothing

Actually he has done some things that we may never be able to correct. One good example is how he has destroyed our relationships with our allies and instead pinned himself to the strong men dictators around the world. We may never be able to fix what he has done. He has damaged our democracy in ways you may like but we may never be able to fix. The idea that a president can do whatever he wants and no one can touch him will certainly lead to the kind of political corruption that trump may be impeached for but will certainly remain in office. Thus letting everyone know that you can do what you want in the political arena as long as you win. And then to our farm interests in this country. He has ruined the verey markets that the farmers in this country worked toward for the past forty years and now will never come back. He has taken stpes to move our environmental regulations back to the fifties, which by the time we are able to check may take another forty years to fix. I could go on, but I am tired of writing about this.

 

[Hypothetical]

I have seen at least two cons writing that taking a knife to the Baby Trump should be covered under free speech, but it is not. SCOTUS has spoken that when you burn your own flag it is covered by the 1st Amendment to the constitution as free speech. To desecrate your neighbors flag is a violation of the law. So when you take a knife to baby Trump you have violated the law, unless you own the balloon. It would never be covered by the 1st Amendment.

sure it is a violation of the law.

there have at times, though, been violations of the law that were warranted and good.

its a misdemeanor that he should have to pay the owner back for, at best.

 

[veritas1]

Nothing more humorous then watching the champions of illegal immigration self righteously prattle about the law. They simply ignore any law that doesn't suit them but are quite alert for any opportunity to bloviate about conservatives. Their hypocrisy can hardly be categorized.

 

[gdgyva]

Actually he has done some things that we may never be able to correct. One good example is how he has destroyed our relationships with our allies and instead pinned himself to the strong men dictators around the world. We may never be able to fix what he has done. He has damaged our democracy in ways you may like but we may never be able to fix. The idea that a president can do whatever he wants and no one can touch him will certainly lead to the kind of political corruption that trump may be impeached for but will certainly remain in office. Thus letting everyone know that you can do what you want in the political arena as long as you win. And then to our farm interests in this country. He has ruined the verey markets that the farmers in this country worked toward for the past forty years and now will never come back. He has taken stpes to move our environmental regulations back to the fifties, which by the time we are able to check may take another forty years to fix. I could go on, but I am tired of writing about this.

he is waging a trade war....i know MANY think this a stupid idea (unwinnable)

Here is what i do know....we have been running a HUGE trade deficit for ages now....and because of it, we are slowly but surely having more and more of our capital assets transferred to foreign ownership....if you check land ownership, and home ownership by foreign entities and people, that number has consistently risen for the last 5 decades

We have countries stealing our tech, and mass producing those products with very little issues

Is what he doing going to make it worse? i dunno...not yet. It is possible....it is also possible that it may make things better in the long run. Only time will tell, as this has been decided yet.

What has been decided is that some people are getting hurt as he tries this....farmers come to mind immediately. He hasnt done a lot in his three years....so i am "hoping" that this does work. But who knows....it may be another Don Quixote moment in politics....presidents taking on far more than they are capable of handling....i guess we will see

 

[independentusa]

Nothing more humorous then watching the champions of illegal immigration self righteously prattle about the law. They simply ignore any law that doesn't suit them but are quite alert for any opportunity to bloviate about conservatives. Their hypocrisy can hardly be categorized.

Ah, another attempt at deflection and one that is sooooo far out no one can understand how you got there with the present OP. Again, if you have nothing more than deflection, please stay out of the fray.

 

[independentusa]

he is waging a trade war....i know MANY think this a stupid idea (unwinnable)

Here is what i do know....we have been running a HUGE trade deficit for ages now....and because of it, we are slowly but surely having more and more of our capital assets transferred to foreign ownership....if you check land ownership, and home ownership by foreign entities and people, that number has consistently risen for the last 5 decades

We have countries stealing our tech, and mass producing those products with very little issues

Is what he doing going to make it worse? i dunno...not yet. It is possible....it is also possible that it may make things better in the long run. Only time will tell, as this has been decided yet.

What has been decided is that some people are getting hurt as he tries this....farmers come to mind immediately. He hasnt done a lot in his three years....so i am "hoping" that this does work. But who knows....it may be another Don Quixote moment in politics....presidents taking on far more than they are capable of handling....i guess we will see

Exactly what has he done except pass a trillion dollar tax cut for the wealthy, which has ballooned our deficit to twice that when Obama left office and it is still growing. Cut regulations that are allowing our environment to go to hell. And I will not repeat what he has done to our reputation world wide. He has made us like him a joke. And his tariff war is doomed. It will not reduce our trade deficit, in fact if you look at the numbers, it has increased since this tariff war began. And what will the trade war do for stealing our tech, not a damn thing. Maybe the tariff war might have worked if he had stayed close to our allies and the TPN, which would have given him the power to force China to do something. Instead President stupid dropped out of the TPN and started a trade war with our allies weakening our trade positions. As he did with his own businesses, he will bankrupt this country to help himself and the other wealthy people.

 

[gdgyva]

Exactly what has he done except pass a trillion dollar tax cut for the wealthy, which has ballooned our deficit to twice that when Obama left office and it is still growing. Cut regulations that are allowing our environment to go to hell. And I will not repeat what he has done to our reputation world wide. He has made us like him a joke. And his tariff war is doomed. It will not reduce our trade deficit, in fact if you look at the numbers, it has increased since this tariff war began. And what will the trade war do for stealing our tech, not a damn thing. Maybe the tariff war might have worked if he had stayed close to our allies and the TPN, which would have given him the power to force China to do something. Instead President stupid dropped out of the TPN and started a trade war with our allies weakening our trade positions. As he did with his own businesses, he will bankrupt this country to help himself and the other wealthy people.

Like i said.....i dont know how this ends

I dont know if he can get China to blink...and in reality, neither does anyone else....YET

You could be very right....and this could be a HUGE ****UP of epic proportions....but we dont know that yet

I am not willing to wave the white flag when the battle isnt even halfway over

And the reason i say that is one thing....

China Q3 GDP: Beijing posts economic data amid trade war with US

Their economy is used to growing very fast....this is HURTING them....

 

[roguenuke]

Yes, even tho it is not a question of thin skin. Have you bled for your country? Or just sat at home watching comedic war movies? The people who intentionally provoke have no self control. That is on the protestor.

I broke my nose on the ship I was stationed on (which actually is probably more blood than my husband shed in both Iraq and Afghanistan). But I still believe flag burning is a protected form of free speech, regardless of how despicable I find it. Just as protesting funerals is, again a thing I think is absolutely horrible and provocative, but still protected speech.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

 

[OldFatGuy]

I broke my nose on the ship I was stationed on (which actually is probably more blood than my husband shed in both Iraq and Afghanistan). But I still believe flag burning is a protected form of free speech, regardless of how despicable I find it. Just as protesting funerals is, again a thing I think is absolutely horrible and provocative, but still protected speech.

When actions are despicable, protected by law, is that an excuse to refuse to react? The "good" Germans did nothing to protect the Jews, Roma, Slavs, the mentally disturbed and retarded, were they any less guilty than the Nazis?

 

[roguenuke]

When actions are despicable, protected by law, is that an excuse to refuse to react? The "good" Germans did nothing to protect the Jews, Roma, Slavs, the mentally disturbed and retarded, were they any less guilty than the Nazis?

You don't react with violence. And flag burning is nothing akin to what Nazis did.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

 

[independentusa]

Like i said.....i dont know how this ends

I dont know if he can get China to blink...and in reality, neither does anyone else....YET

You could be very right....and this could be a HUGE ****UP of epic proportions....but we dont know that yet

I am not willing to wave the white flag when the battle isnt even halfway over

And the reason i say that is one thing....

China Q3 GDP: Beijing posts economic data amid trade war with US

Their economy is used to growing very fast....this is HURTING them....

The reason China is having trouble is the same as we have had for the past ten years, their wage growth has made it cheaper to produce goods elsewhere, such as South Vietnam, India and indonesia.

 

[SoCal]

...is this nation really any poorer than 3 years ago?

is there any damage he can do that is permanent?

i know some of you believe so, but really i dont....

unless we have a nuclear war....which i give a .0001% chance, the nation will still be here, and we will still continue on..."

I was referring to your claim that, "We become stronger by listening to crap and knowing when to ignore it. Trump's lies blows your theory about permanent damage out of the water;

"The largest audience ever to witness an inauguration, period"

The phone call was "perfect".

" ...my polls went up, I think they said, 17 points in the last two or three days". "His polling didn't go up 17 point, Don picks a number out of thin air, pretends it’s real and insists everyone accept his made-up number. And this is only one of his made-up numbers.

Accusing Congress of, “treason" and a "coup" and raising the prospect of a ,“Civil War-like fracture." "...an attempted to overthrow America..."

"Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, and Alabama, will most likely be hit (much) harder than anticipated".Remember his ridiculous hand drawn sharpie enlargement of the hurricane forecast? If he's successful in convincing the public that Coast Guard Admirals and the NOAA are in the business of partisan spin rather than facts, millions won’t trust their future warnings.

He claims that, "There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea” This is not true, both Kim Jong-un and Putin pose a serious nuclear threat. Trump has relentlessly attacked U.S. intelligence agencies and divulged secrets to foreign officials, potentially burning high-value sources. Etc, etc, etc.

The fact is, we don't, "become stronger by listening to crap and knowing when to ignore it", because millions of Americans won't ignore his lies, they'll believe them. His lies can alter our relations to the world and cause America permanent damage. If you don't recognize the above is crap, you're what we call a Cult member.

...Trump opened some peoples eyes maybe....and he has attacked the "establishment" (whatever that means to some)

He doesnt play by the rules that have been established for decades....

Our establishment can always be improved and streamlined, but there's no reason to attack millions of Americans working for our government. Your eyes have been opened to a president who believes conspiracy theories about, 'The Deep State' and not playing by the "rules, shouldn't make us weaker and the laughing stock of the world.

...He is a boob, a rube, and a perrenial liar....and this too shall pass...

I agree with your description, but while some lies will pass, many will not. See above.

...Tell me HOW he has changed your personal life? really....because mine hasnt changed one iota because of him...

Although raising taxes has obviously effected most American's lives, including ours, like you, he hasn't changed my personal life much. My biggest problem with him is his risking our county's security. He's a one man show like the dictators he admires. He has no use for our intelligence agencies, or state department. That wouldn't be so bad if he didn't have the self control of a ten year old and wasn't an ignoramus who doesn't read. You seem to know this, but you're ok with that change in America?

Why can't conservatives see past their personal lives to something bigger? Do you believe Don is motivated by love of country or love of money and power? How about Obama? If conservative isolationists have their way, they'll have an enormous impact on America forever. Handing our position as leader of the world to China and Russia might save us a few million in funding the UN, but like many issues with cons, it's a short sighted policy. To put it another way, it's penny wise and pound foolish.

From earlier in your post, "is this nation really any poorer than 3 years ago?"

...my taxes may have gone up a smidgen....that is politics....
other than that...nada nothing

Don has added four trillion to our national debt since taking office. Millions of American's taxes might have gone up, including ours, but someone has to pay for the wealthy's windfall. You should consider revising your political leaning claim...

 

[3leftsdoo]

What if I accidentally burn my neighbor's flag?