Biden vs. Sanders - Biden way ahead in Pennsylvania

[AlphaOmega]

Answer: Because dems think he can beat Trump so they will look the other way on everything. The funny part is, Biden is perhaps the weakest of their candidates. If he is the nominee, he will lose to Trump in 2020.

It's hilarious that Biden is the cream of their crop.

 

[Perotista]

Good points!! I never looked at it that way even though I would prefer a younger, fresher candidate

Problem is, the Democrats don't seem to have one that is also viable, though Cory Booker seems to have some charisma and has a good back story

I think it is hard to say who will be the leaders of the pact come November, December this year prior to the start of the primaries. It is possible a fresh young energetic face will catch fire. What the Democrats don't need if another candidate who runs a ho hum campaign with no energy like in 2016.

I like Joe, always have as a senator and as VP. I sure would vote for him over Trump. I can't say that about a couple of other candidates outside of being sure I won't be voting for Trump. I voted against both Trump and Hillary in 2016, I would have no qualms voting third party again in 2020 if I don't like whom the Democrats pick. There were 9 million of us who voted third party in 2016 refusing to choose between Trump and Clinton. We're up for grabs by the Democrats, but still against Trump.

 

[OscarLevant]

Yeah, but only to defeat Republicans. As long as the Right continues to be unhinged, I have lost my luxury of voting Green.

Let's see who wins, then we work on green. Most dems are green enough, that I can tell.

 

[Perotista]

Again, I don't know why you keep thinking independents = moderates. It's just not true, and I keep showing you why per their stances on policy, yet you insist on trotting it out repeatedly.

Having said that, I will admit that at present, Biden is somewhat more popular among independents than Bernie, but the margin is actually smaller there than among Democrats (exactly the inverse of what you are suggesting), and, as you've noted, seeing as we're more than a year and a half out, polling on individuals means little at this point.

There's three types of independents. Independents lean Democrat, the center left. Independents lean Republican, the center right and true or pure independents with no leans. Outside of a few states which have open primaries, independents have little to no say in whom the two major parties nominate. But a huge say in who wins the general.

 

[Winston]

Let's see who wins, then we work on green. Most dems are green enough, that I can tell.

Right, I'm at the point where defeating Republicans is obstacle #1. Fight them first, then fight the Democratic Party, lol. We have a lot of work ahead.

 

[GreatNews2night]

If Sanders wins the Primary (I'm not making a prediction of who will win the Primary, btw), will you support him in his effort to defeat Trump?

Of course. I'll vote for whoever the Dem nominee is. I hope it's Biden because I think he has better chances at defeating Trump (and that's what early poll is saying too, although I'm fully aware that it is too early).

I think if Trump makes fun of Sanders in debates, Sanders will come across as awkward and light-weight. If Trump makes fun of Biden, Biden will fight back very energetically.

Like I've said before, I'll vote for the flea on the back of my worst enemy's dog rather than Trump, and I'll be fully confident that the flea is more qualified to be POTUS than Trump.

 

[washunut]

Right, I'm at the point where defeating Republicans is obstacle #1. Fight them first, then fight the Democratic Party, lol. We have a lot of work ahead.

If 2016 taught you anything it is picking the right candidate is the only way to win obstacle #1.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Completely agreed.

The only reason I didn't mention something along these lines is because I've pointed out this exact thing to GN2N at least three times or so already; I don't think he wants to acknowledge the fact.

These are interesting points, sure, but they seem to be strongly contradicted by the polls. 39% to 13% is a pretty darn big advantage for Biden. So, it seems like registered Democrats are still thinking moderate. It seems like what you and him are saying makes sense, and SHOULD be the way people would be voting. The only problem with that, is that it isn't the way people ARE voting... or will vote (given that it's a poll, not election day). And sure, it's early, but both Biden and Sanders are pretty well known politicians by now, so, it's not like the numbers are because of some misguided views of the candidates. Registered Dems seem to prefer Biden by 3 to 1 margin, DESPITE your idea, which might otherwise be valid, that we need a true progressive now.

The people not always vote wisely. The 2016 election is the best proof.

 

[Cardinal]

Of course. I'll vote for whoever the Dem nominee is. I hope it's Biden because I think he has better chances at defeating Trump (and that's what early poll is saying too, although I'm fully aware that it is too early).

I think if Trump makes fun of Sanders in debates, Sanders will come across as awkward and light-weight. If Trump makes fun of Biden, Biden will fight back very energetically.

Like I've said before, I'll vote for the flea on the back of my worst enemy's dog rather than Trump, and I'll be fully confident that the flea is more qualified to be POTUS than Trump.

If you believe that defeating Trump is a top priority, then consider this: you can't control who ultimately wins the Primary, but you can play a part in how bloodied and damaged that Primary winner is after he or she emerges from that process. So when you make comments like "Sanders is a loser," you are doing Trump's work for him by damaging him here and now. Maybe that won't matter because Sanders won't win the Primary anyway, but if he does, you are playing your part here, and it's not in the service of defeating Trump in 2020.

 

[GreatNews2night]

I don't like Bernie for president, though his heart is in the right place:

First, a lot of the luster of "feel the bern" is lost. His numbers have shrunk.

What I don't like about Bernie is that every time he appears on a townhall, interview, etc., he doesn't really banter, doesn't wing conversation well, he always falls onto a narrow bullet points he carries around with him. He does stick to the script, I will say that.

Also, when asked about what 'socialism' means, he NEVER defines it. He never dispells the right wing notion that Bernie wants USSR communism, Cuba styled, Venezuela, etc. He never explains what DS actually means, he just starts talking about policies, which are socialistic, only confirming right wing fears. ( I am for those pollicies, however, I would go out of my way to dispell the idea that they are socialism, and try and define socialism what it originally meant. In fact, today's "democratic socialists" aren't really socialists, they are progressives, or rather "social democrats". Bernie has done a fine job of mucking it all up withi the socialist label, making it harder for dems to present their case. )

Additionally, I think the socialist moniker was a strategic blunder of epic proportions, giving the right a hammer that they will beat upon his balding head and dems in general, for frickin' ever. Let's get it straight about what socialism is, it's state ownership of all the means of production and distribution, plus some other egalitarian ideals. Dems are for egalitariansim, but state ownership of everything? No dem I know is for that.

This gives the right the ammunition to claim that dems want "Venezuela", "Cuba", "USSR", etc. ANd it's a lie.

And they know that it is a lie, but all is fair in the blood sport called politics.

Kamala Harris rejects the label, as does Biden. They are both correct for doing it.

Another thing I don't like about Bernie is his failure to be a democrat. He spends his life being "independent" (which he isn't , he caucuses with dems 95% of the time ) and when it's convenient to be a democrat, take advantage of their caucus machinery which does not exist for independents, now that he is running for president and needs DNC machinery, he is a democrat.

I"m sorry Bernie, but that doesn't cut it.

I couldn't agree more. These are precisely some of the reasons why I don't like Bernie. People say he has integrity... real integrity would be to run as an independent if he spent his entire career thumping his chest and calling himself an independent. His opportunism in joining the Dems just to run showed up in 2016, then he bitched and complained and whined about the Democratic Party rules (well, if he doesn't like them, he isn't forced to join), lost, got out, and now... joined again!!!

If I were a Democratic official I'd deny him the registration... But they can't do this, because they don't want to further alienate Bernie's base.

But yes, it has shrunk, and this time the progressive vote is diluted among other candidates. Advantage Biden.

And you mentioned another Sanders weakness: the one-trick pony with his endless Wall Street point. I believe that he underestimates how many middle class Americans actually have investments and want Wall Street to do well.

 

[GreatNews2night]

If you believe that defeating Trump is a top priority, then consider this: you can't control who ultimately wins the Primary, but you can play a part in how bloodied and damaged that Primary winner is after he or she emerges from that process. So when you make comments like "Sanders is a loser," you are doing Trump's work for him by damaging him here and now. Maybe that won't matter because Sanders won't win the Primary anyway, but if he does, you are playing your part here, and it's not in the service of defeating Trump in 2020.

That's a good point. But consider this: if I firmly believe that Biden has better chances, then I should be propping up Biden and bringing down Bernie, because I'd be afraid that people would choose unwisely and nominate Bernie, who would then lose to Trump (he'll be extensively attacked as a socialist who wants the US to become Venezuela, which is not true, but the truth has never stopped Trump, and many less informed Americans will buy it).

By the way, yes, I do control some of it. I vote in the Democratic primaries (and will be voting for Biden), and I am active during elections, donating money and volunteering my time.

 

[GreatNews2night]

There's three types of independents. Independents lean Democrat, the center left. Independents lean Republican, the center right and true or pure independents with no leans. Outside of a few states which have open primaries, independents have little to no say in whom the two major parties nominate. But a huge say in who wins the general.

It's not just a few states that have open primaries. Many do. More precisely, 15. This can make a big difference in close races.

 

[GreatNews2night]

If 2016 taught you anything it is picking the right candidate is the only way to win obstacle #1.

Exactly, and I don't think that candidate is Sanders. That's why I've been so virulent against him. I believe that Sanders is likely to lose to Trump, while I believe that Biden is likely to beat Trump. And I don't think that any of the others will gather enough support to win the nomination, so it's between Biden and Sanders, and if I want Trump defeated, I want Biden.

It's not that I find Biden to be great. Far from that. But I don't see any other pre-candidate or candidate that is likely to gather national support and win the primaries other than Biden and Sanders.

If a fresh face, very solid, very appealing, with national recognition, and broad support, showed up, sure, I'd be delighted, but this is not happening, so far.

 

[Cardinal]

That's a good point. But consider this: if I firmly believe that Biden has better chances, then I should be propping up Biden and bringing down Bernie, because I'd be afraid that people would choose unwisely and nominate Bernie, who would then lose to Trump (he'll be extensively attacked as a socialist who wants the US to become Venezuela, which is not true, but the truth has never stopped Trump, and many less informed Americans will buy it).

By the way, yes, I do control some of it. I vote in the Democratic primaries (and will be voting for Biden), and I am active during elections, donating money and volunteering my time.

Bringing down Bernie doesn't help your cause if he ends up winning the Primary anyway. If you believe in Biden, great. Prop up Biden. I certainly have my favorite candidates too, but I also understand that my favorite candidates may not win, and what I say now is some contribution to how how strong the final candidate will be after the Primary.

But if I choose to help my candidate now by trashing the other candidates, then I'd just be doing Trump's re-election campaign work for him, and I'd be doing it entirely for free.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Bringing down Bernie doesn't help your cause if he ends up winning the Primary anyway. If you believe in Biden, great. Prop up Biden. I certainly have my favorite candidates too, but I also understand that my favorite candidates may not win, and what I say now is some contribution to how how strong the final candidate will be after the Primary.

But if I choose to help my candidate now by trashing the other candidates, then I'd just be doing Trump's re-election campaign work for him, and I'd be doing it entirely for free.

Like I said, those are good points. A bit of unity in the Dem field would be good. But that's one of the reasons why I profoundly dislike Bernie. He is not for the unity of the Democratic Party, much the opposite, he attacked the party at every opportunity in 2016 and only joined the Hillary campaign too little too late, after having extensively weakened her.

I don't want a repeat. Bernie irritated me profoundly in 2016 and I believe he is in great part responsible for Trump's victory. Not the only one, of course, and not more responsible than inept Hillary herself, but inept as she was, she could still have won if Bernie had graciously stepped down when it became clear that the nomination was beyond his reach - he continued way past that point, which ended up being one of the decisive factors for Trump. And by pushing the notion that the nomination got stolen from him (which is absolutely not true; he lost because Hillary simply appealed to millions of Dem primary voters more than him), he provoked the phenomenon of his followers sitting out or even joining Trump.

There were many factors in Hillary's loss, the biggest one being herself with her unforced errors. But since the election was so close, by a razor-thin margin in three states, any ONE of those factors, not having materialized, would make Trump's victory impossible. Hillary's blunders... Comey's letter... the Russians... The DNC leaks and Wikileaks... etc., etc... but ALSO, one aloof opportunistic narcissistic Senator from Vermont called Bernie Sanders.

Without Sanders Hillary would have won, despite her multiple blunders.

I don't want Sanders to hang on and damage Biden like he damaged Hillary, because I believe that Biden has a much better chance at defeating Trump, if he is not undermined by Sanders, in a repeat of the 2016 divisiveness.

If you are talking unity, Sanders is the anti-unity candidate. He isn't even a true Democrat.

-------

By the way, that's why I don't like AOC either. She is extremely divisive, and she keeps giving ammunition to the right wing. She has a detrimental effect on the Dems' chances of defeating Trump. The more she opens her damn mouth, the worst things get. She should shut up and learn the ropes for a couple of years. She isn't even of legal age to run for President, so it would be advisable for her to be humble and to stop interfering now. Later, in a few years, if she wants to run with a very progressive platform, sure, but now, it's not the time to give ammunition to the right wing. We shouldn't underestimate Trump. He will be difficult to beat, and divisive people like Sanders and AOC undermine the party's effort to recover the White House.

 

[Simpletruther]

no feel free to jail all people who fondle children. Biden is a creep who touches women and children innapropriately. If anyone else did what he has done we would have been sitting in a courtroom. If Kavanaugh got caught on video doing what Biden did thr left would be losing their minds over it. The question is...why arencha?

No doubt, but it’s true in politics in general. The righ would be all over a dem for doing lots of trumpisms.

 

[Cardinal]

Like I said, those are good points. A bit of unity in the Dem field would be good. But that's one of the reasons why I profoundly dislike Bernie. He is not for the unity of the Democratic Party, much the opposite, he attacked the party at every opportunity in 2016 and only joined the Hillary campaign too little too late, after having extensively weakened her.

I don't want a repeat. Bernie irritated me profoundly in 2016 and I believe he is in great part responsible for Trump's victory. Not the only one, of course, and not more responsible than inept Hillary herself, but inept as she was, she could still have won if Bernie had graciously stepped down when it became clear that the nomination was beyond his reach - he continued way past that point, which ended up being one of the decisive factors for Trump. And by pushing the notion that the nomination got stolen from him (which is absolutely not true; he lost because Hillary simply appealed to millions of Dem primary voters more than him), he provoked the phenomenon of his followers sitting out or even joining Trump.

There were many factors in Hillary's loss, the biggest one being herself with her unforced errors. But since the election was so close, by a razor-thin margin in three states, any ONE of those factors, not having materialized, would make Trump's victory impossible. Hillary's blunders... Comey's letter... the Russians... The DNC leaks and Wikileaks... etc., etc... but ALSO, one aloof opportunistic narcissistic Senator from Vermont called Bernie Sanders.

Without Sanders Hillary would have won, despite her multiple blunders.

I don't want Sanders to hang on and damage Biden like he damaged Hillary, because I believe that Biden has a much better chance at defeating Trump, if he is not undermined by Sanders, in a repeat of the 2016 divisiveness.

If you are talking unity, Sanders is the anti-unity candidate. He isn't even a true Democrat.

Trump appreciates your efforts here.

Just kidding, Trump doesn't appreciate anything. He's still glad you're helping him, though.

 

[GreatNews2night]

If Sanders starts doing poorly in the primaries (like I expect he will; his hot wave has cooled, and his base has shrunk; other progressives now dilute that vote; he should still be a bit above the others, but not as much as in 2016), and starts whining again about the DNC and the establishment, again turning off his followers against the eventual Dem nominee, I'll be furious.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Trump appreciates your efforts here.

Just kidding, Trump doesn't appreciate anything. He's still glad you're helping him, though.

No, I'm not sure I'm helping him. If I help NOT nominating a candidate that will lose to him, and I help nominating a candidate that will beat him, I fail to see how I'm helping him.

You are blaming me for doing what Bernie is a specialist in doing: attacking his primaries opponents. Bernie is divisive (and he attacks the very party he is opportunistically joining, just to run). So fighting him off increases the odds that the Dems will be united.

 

[Cardinal]

No, I'm not sure I'm helping him. If I help NOT nominating a candidate that will lose to him, and I help nominating a candidate that will beat him, I fail to see how I'm helping him.

You are blaming me for doing what Bernie is a specialist in doing: attacking his primaries opponents. Bernie is divisive. So fighting him off increases the odds that the Dems will be united.

But Bernie may end up winning the Primary anyway, and what will your attacks on him all this time end up meaning? Do you think they will ultimately end up helping him in his fight with Trump, or hurting him?

 

[MorrisDay]

I would take Biden over Sanders, but it doesn't matter since I won't be supporting any leftist socialist democrat.

 

[washunut]

Exactly, and I don't think that candidate is Sanders. That's why I've been so virulent against him. I believe that Sanders is likely to lose to Trump, while I believe that Biden is likely to beat Trump. And I don't think that any of the others will gather enough support to win the nomination, so it's between Biden and Sanders, and if I want Trump defeated, I want Biden.

It's not that I find Biden to be great. Far from that. But I don't see any other pre-candidate or candidate that is likely to gather national support and win the primaries other than Biden and Sanders.

If a fresh face, very solid, very appealing, with national recognition, and broad support, showed up, sure, I'd be delighted, but this is not happening, so far.

Just my opinion but I think if the senator from Calif is given some light she could be a better candidate for 2020 than Biden.

 

[Perotista]

It's not just a few states that have open primaries. Many do. More precisely, 15. This can make a big difference in close races.

I never realized it was that many. Still that leaves 35 who have closed primaries, 70%. I wonder if there was a huge difference between the way Democratic leaning independents voted vs. registered or those who identify with the Democratic Party in the primaries? I don't think there is anyway to tell.

 

[GreatNews2night]

But Bernie may end up winning the Primary anyway, and what will your attacks on him all this time end up meaning? Do you think they will ultimately end up helping him in his fight with Trump, or hurting him?

Well, IF he wins the nomination then you'll be proven right. But I sincerely hope he won't. And I actually think he won't. Then, I won't be helping Trump.

 

[GreatNews2night]

I never realized it was that many. Still that leaves 35 who have closed primaries, 70%. I wonder if there was a huge difference between the way Democratic leaning independents voted vs. registered or those who identify with the Democratic Party in the primaries? I don't think there is anyway to tell.

There's some way to tell, by polls, and by exit polls. So far, polls show independents favoring Biden over Sanders, which doesn't surprise me at all.