Because People Getting to Keep Their Money Is the Worst Thing Ever

[Critter7r]

Sure it can, if you reduce other costs, taxes, regulation, logistics etc. Im sure americans would rather buy american and employ american, if the cost wasnt substantially higher. More likely though might be using those savings to hire skilled workers here instead of importing foreigners. I guess we'll see.

aaaaaaaaand, pivot.

see my sig.

 

[jonny5]

aaaaaaaaand, pivot.

see my sig.

No thanks, all that annoying stuff is turned off.

 

[Critter7r]

No thanks, all that annoying stuff is turned off.

It says : I'm not going to chase you while you run around with the goalpost in your arms.

 

[jonny5]

It says : I'm not going to chase you while you run around with the goalpost in your arms.

Its turned off for a reason. If you dont want to have a debate, then just stop posting. No need to play games.

 

[Critter7r]

Its turned off for a reason. If you dont want to have a debate, then just stop posting. No need to play games.

We were having a conversation about US workers' wages, and competing for jobs with Chinese workers. Which is an arena in which the US cannot compete. Your having thrown in, "Sure it can, if you reduce other costs, taxes, regulation, logistics etc...." doesn't make it any less of a race to the bottom. Do you really want to roll back our environmental and labor regulations to Chinese standards? How is that any less of a race to the bottom? And reducing "other costs" and "logistics" sounds like it was just thrown in to make your dissention list larger. However, it's the responsibility of the corporation that is deciding whether or not to use Chinese labor, anyhow. I'm not sure how government intervention could really help those categories.

 

[washunut]

We were having a conversation about US workers' wages, and competing for jobs with Chinese workers. Which is an arena in which the US cannot compete. Your having thrown in, "Sure it can, if you reduce other costs, taxes, regulation, logistics etc...." doesn't make it any less of a race to the bottom. Do you really want to roll back our environmental and labor regulations to Chinese standards? How is that any less of a race to the bottom? And reducing "other costs" and "logistics" sounds like it was just thrown in to make your dissention list larger. However, it's the responsibility of the corporation that is deciding whether or not to use Chinese labor, anyhow. I'm not sure how government intervention could really help those categories.

If I could drop in.

First as we all know our competition is global, not just China. Many companies moved to Ireland for example due to their low tax rates. You must remember the issue of corporate tax inversions, which also drained jobs.

You also fail to consider the possibility that not only American companies but others as well would want to site their production in the world's largest consumer market. Also there are costs other than labor which impact profitability. Some products use unskilled workers and labor is a large part of their cost of goods sold. Other product, e.g. semiconductor manufacturing not so much.

Not every job will move to the states. That being said we could not accommodate all jobs. Bringing back a few million jobs would have a huuuge impact on middle class incomes.

The reality is that no one thing can totally sway such a large and diverse economy. But to say that this change in corporate taxes, which includes penalties for moving things like IP overseas, has no hope seems to be just people hoping American fails for partisan purposes (which both sides do BTW).

 

[Critter7r]

If I could drop in.

First as we all know our competition is global, not just China. Many companies moved to Ireland for example due to their low tax rates. You must remember the issue of corporate tax inversions, which also drained jobs.

You also fail to consider the possibility that not only American companies but others as well would want to site their production in the world's largest consumer market. Also there are costs other than labor which impact profitability. Some products use unskilled workers and labor is a large part of their cost of goods sold. Other product, e.g. semiconductor manufacturing not so much.

Not every job will move to the states. That being said we could not accommodate all jobs. Bringing back a few million jobs would have a huuuge impact on middle class incomes.

The reality is that no one thing can totally sway such a large and diverse economy. But to say that this change in corporate taxes, which includes penalties for moving things like IP overseas, has no hope seems to be just people hoping American fails for partisan purposes (which both sides do BTW).

"Many" (which is debatable) companies may have moved their headquarters to other countries due to tax rates, but that doesn't remove many (or any) employees from the US workforce. Burger King did a corporate inversion to Canada and the US didn't lose a single fast food job over it.

We've lost, arguably, significantly more jobs to automation than foreign countries anyhow.

Don?t Blame China For Taking U.S. Jobs | Fortune
Rise of the machines: Fear robots, not China or Mexico - Jan. 30, 2017

We agree on the last 2 points.

 

[jonny5]

We were having a conversation about US workers' wages, and competing for jobs with Chinese workers. Which is an arena in which the US cannot compete. Your having thrown in, "Sure it can, if you reduce other costs, taxes, regulation, logistics etc...." doesn't make it any less of a race to the bottom. Do you really want to roll back our environmental and labor regulations to Chinese standards? How is that any less of a race to the bottom? And reducing "other costs" and "logistics" sounds like it was just thrown in to make your dissention list larger. However, it's the responsibility of the corporation that is deciding whether or not to use Chinese labor, anyhow. I'm not sure how government intervention could really help those categories.

I was primarily responding to snarky comments about Trump, so dont expect a answer of substance. I think its obvious that a business will choose the path of most shareholder value, and that includes MANY factors, of which labor cost is only one. Reducing compliance costs by hundreds of billions is certainly a incentive to keep business here. Its also my opinion that american businesses have some loyalty to america, and certainly their customers do, and that they prefer to be made in america, even if the cost was a little higher.

 

[Critter7r]

I was primarily responding to snarky comments about Trump, so dont expect a answer of substance. I think its obvious that a business will choose the path of most shareholder value, and that includes MANY factors, of which labor cost is only one. Reducing compliance costs by hundreds of billions is certainly a incentive to keep business here. Its also my opinion that american businesses have some loyalty to america, and certainly their customers do, and that they prefer to be made in america, even if the cost was a little higher.

$500B split amongst the 30 million small businesses in the country works out to about $1,200 a month per business. I think this tax cut will cover a lot of that, so it looks like we won't be forced to choose between (for example) having marble tile in our foyers, or drinking water.

I hope jobs come back, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[washunut]

"Many" (which is debatable) companies may have moved their headquarters to other countries due to tax rates, but that doesn't remove many (or any) employees from the US workforce. Burger King did a corporate inversion to Canada and the US didn't lose a single fast food job over it.

We've lost, arguably, significantly more jobs to automation than foreign countries anyhow.

Don?t Blame China For Taking U.S. Jobs | Fortune
Rise of the machines: Fear robots, not China or Mexico - Jan. 30, 2017

We agree on the last 2 points.

Obviously you don't lose jobs at the local outlet. You do lose high paying admin and executive jobs that get moved. You also lose the taxes from foreign operations, which was the main reason for the takeover.

We have clearly lost jobs due to automation, doubt it equals the jobs that moved overseas. We also gain jobs from automation. Ironically I wrote a term paper on the effects of automation (computers in this case) to office jobs. That was 50 years ago!

 

[Critter7r]

Obviously you don't lose jobs at the local outlet. You do lose high paying admin and executive jobs that get moved. You also lose the taxes from foreign operations, which was the main reason for the takeover.

We have clearly lost jobs due to automation, doubt it equals the jobs that moved overseas. We also gain jobs from automation. Ironically I wrote a term paper on the effects of automation (computers in this case) to office jobs. That was 50 years ago!

Did you read either link?

Better yet, Google "automation vs. outsourcing". I didn't see a single source that would corroborate your assertion.

 

[jonny5]

$500B split amongst the 30 million small businesses in the country works out to about $1,200 a month per business. I think this tax cut will cover a lot of that, so it looks like we won't be forced to choose between (for example) having marble tile in our foyers, or drinking water.

I hope jobs come back, but I'm not holding my breath.

Well youve already got proof. Several high profile businesses increasing employee benefits as a direct result of this bill.

 

[Critter7r]

Well youve already got proof. Several high profile businesses increasing employee benefits as a direct result of this bill.

And that's great. But let's not wipe our brows and call it a total win just yet. A half million employees from 4 or 5 large companies getting a thousand bucks apiece while the government forgoes $200 Billion in business taxes each year is still a little lopsided.

It is however, a development that garners some cautious optimism.

 

[Mr Person]

"getting to keep their own money".

Playbook propaganda.




The question is what government services we want, then how to pay for them. We don't need dishonest re-framings.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I say that wealth belongs to the collective, that we need to place it where it will do the most good, which figures because I am a socialist.

We do a pretty crap job at that these days, and this is getting worse with this drive to hand out even more money to victims and those who refuse to produce.

 

[Jetboogieman]

Anyone who actually believes these cuts are actually in the best interests of the country... I'm afraid, you're brainwashed :shrug:

It's amazing that for all the support of Trump as a protest against the establishment, this was an atypical but much more generous giveaway to the wealthy that the establishment must do as a form of patronage for those who have participated in the legal bribery to the Elites Citizens United so kindly provided.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Anyone who actually believes these cuts are actually in the best interests of the country... I'm afraid, you're brainwashed :shrug:

It's amazing that for all the support of Trump as a protest against the establishment, this was an atypical but much more generous giveaway to the wealthy that the establishment must do as a form of patronage for those who have participated in the legal bribery to the Elites Citizens United so kindly provided.

He says as Washington gets massively defunded....

This is in part an attack on the Swamp.

 

[jonny5]

And that's great. But let's not wipe our brows and call it a total win just yet. A half million employees from 4 or 5 large companies getting a thousand bucks apiece while the government forgoes $200 Billion in business taxes each year is still a little lopsided.

It is however, a development that garners some cautious optimism.

That sounds like a total win. Less money in govts hands AND companies giving out bonuses as a direct result. Govt forgoing money goes in the win side.

 

[jonny5]

I say that wealth belongs to the collective, that we need to place it where it will do the most good, which figures because I am a socialist.

We do a pretty crap job at that these days, and this is getting worse with this drive to hand out even more money to victims and those who refuse to produce.

So for example, you think my labor belongs to you? Whatever I produce by that labor, you (the collective) should decide where it will do the most good?