At Long Last, a Glimpse of a Black Hole

[Helix]

this is the illustration of space time that helped me to understand it a little better.

 

[Chomsky]

Don't forget the first law of both chemistry & physics: matter can neither be created nor destroyed. The one exception to that is Einstein's E=mc^2 that made the A-bomb & nuclear power possible.

To the bolded: Of course!

But the A-bomb didn't create matter or energy; it simply transformed them. (which of course is a really big deal)

 

[Chomsky]

So mass isn't the trigger, a lack of flow is the trigger.

I'll let you have a go at it:

(Forbes) What Happens When A Black Hole Dies?

 

[ecofarm]

I'll let you have a go at it:

(Forbes) What Happens When A Black Hole Dies?

Stopped here but bookmarked it:

As the temperature gets higher and higher, more kinds of particles and antiparticles will be emitted by the black hole - basically, if the temperature of the black hole is high enough to create these particles, it will. The details of the last few microseconds or nanoseconds of the lifetime of a black hole will depend on the details of quantum gravity - and we have no quantum gravity theory at this point that could calculate those details.

 

[AmNat]

Some physicists believe that black holes are flat 2-dimensional objects which create the illusion of a three dimensional sphere.

It's the accepted theory that rotating black holes are perfectly flat 2-dimensional objects. Only non-rotating black holes are considered to be 0-dimensional singularities. And it's not likely that any actual black holes are totally non-rotating.

Event horizons are three dimensional by definition. All gravitational fields are.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

I don't claim to be an astrophysicist. My understanding is once something - anything - gets past the event horizon, it's goodbye forever! But I believe Stephan Hawking once postulated what you're saying ...

I thought I read it somewhere. Of course it is all theory. Until we get a better look at one from the inside who knows for sure.

 

[Chomsky]

Stopped here but bookmarked it:

It sounds to me not too dissimilar to the singularities that occurred in the very beginning of the big bang. We have neither the understanding nor the math to handle it. We have no frame of reference.

 

[ecofarm]

It sounds to me not too dissimilar to the singularities that occurred in the very beginning of the big bang. We have neither the understanding nor the math to handle it. We have no frame of reference.

We know what happens before (emission of waves, energy and even matter) and eventually a bang. We just don't know how gravity interacts in the final nano seconds of a black hole's life.

 

[Chomsky]

We know what happens before (emission of waves, energy and even matter) and eventually a bang. We just don't know how gravity interacts in the final nano seconds of a black hole's life.

We've sure come a long way from this, eh?

 

[Chomsky]

It's the accepted theory that rotating black holes are perfectly flat 2-dimensional objects. Only non-rotating black holes are considered to be 0-dimensional singularities. And it's not likely that any actual black holes are totally non-rotating.

Event horizons are three dimensional by definition. All gravitational fields are.

Geezus, is that a freaky concept!

 

[ecofarm]

We've sure come a long way from this, eh?

"We" is kind. Could be a cheese moon and all that crap's made up. I can't do the math.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

The best books I ever read were the Time Life Books. I read Voyage Through the Universe about 20 books that you got 1 each month back in the 80's I think. They me be a little out of date but from what I remember they had theories that I haven't heard again until lately. What I learned from those books put everything I learned in school to shame. I couldn't wait for the next book. I got about 6 books into the contract and finally just paid for the whole lot and they sent me all of them. I couldn't wait a month for the next book. I had over 100 books about different things. I gave them all to my nephew who is 8 and is just starting to look at the pictures. If you are interested in this kind of stuff I could not think of a better starter collection of books.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

To the bolded: Of course!

But the A-bomb didn't create matter or energy; it simply transformed them. (which of course is a really big deal)

The best explanation I have heard is the math theory (+1 and -1 equal 0). So to create matter from nothing you must reverse the equation. To create something from nothing you must create its opposite as well. (0 = -1 + 1) In order to make a positive universe a negative universe had to be created at the same time. The math works. In order to have (up you must have down), (left you need right), (hot/cold), (good/evil), (forward/backward), and so on.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

We know what happens before (emission of waves, energy and even matter) and eventually a bang. We just don't know how gravity interacts in the final nano seconds of a black hole's life.

I have been told that bang isn't the right word either. First off there was most likely no noise. Second we think of a bang as an explosion with debris flying off from a central location. We can't find a central location that everything is flying away from. So the expansion theory is I believe the current theory. It seems no matter where you go in the present universe matter is moving away from you in all direction. With an explosion if you go to move towards the edge of the explosion there should be matter coming towards you as well as flying away from you. It is a hard concept to wrap your mind around. With expansion everything could be getting further away from each other with no central location of point of explosion.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

'Seeing the unseeable': Scientists reveal first photo of black hole - Reuters

'Seeing the unseeable': Scientists reveal first photo of black hole

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Using a global network of telescopes to see “the unseeable,” an international scientific team on Wednesday announced a milestone in astrophysics - the first-ever photo of a black hole - in an achievement that validated a pillar of science put forward by Albert Einstein more than a century ago.

Black holes are monstrous celestial entities exerting gravitational fields so vicious that no matter or light can escape. The photo of the black hole at the center of Messier 87, or M87, a massive galaxy in the relatively nearby Virgo galaxy cluster, shows a glowing ring of red, yellow and white surrounding a dark center.
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IMO, the attached photo should not be possible. I believe a black hole is spherical & not flat. The photo shows a flat object surrounded by glowing stellar matter. It should, IMO, be a bright circular blob instead of a black disc.

View attachment 67254603

There is really no way to determine if it's flat or not. That photo does not have enough clarity and detail to prove one way or the other. It may well be spherical.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

There is really no way to determine if it's flat or not. That photo does not have enough clarity and detail to prove one way or the other. It may well be spherical.

What if it were a negative dimension. What if positive matter was crushed beyond nothing to negative matter creating negative space.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

What if it were a negative dimension. What if positive matter was crushed beyond nothing to negative matter creating negative space.

Me stupid, me no got math to cipher that.
Seriously, what grey matter I have is good for artsy stuff but my math isn't good enough to do physics.
At first blush, I'd say it looks like you're talking about anti-matter.

 

[American]

Opinion | At Long Last, a Glimpse of a Black Hole - The New York Times

This week scientists are expected to release images of the silhouette of this elusive and inscrutable astronomical object.

This week we may get the first glimpse of what scientists have long been able only to theorize, calculate and simulate: the edge of a black hole. This is the so-called event horizon, beyond which even light cannot escape and where all known physical laws break down.

Astronomers who have created a global network of radio telescopes called the Event Horizon Telescope are expected to release images of this elusive and inscrutable astronomical object on Wednesday morning. Such images would represent not only a major scientific accomplishment but also an opportunity to rethink the cosmos and our place in it.
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Einstein predicted it but after years of trying we have yet to see one because no light escapes them. There is said to be one in the center of each galaxy, so there should be many trillions of them.

This week a major effort by radio astronomers should hopefully give us an image of the outermost edge of a black hole - the so-called Event Horizon where stars, planets & even other galaxies sworl to their destruction into the black hole.

You sure it ain't a hoax, like the moon landings? :lol:

 

[Thingfish]

I always had a hard time visualizing how a teaspoon of material could weigh 5 metric tons

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Me stupid, me no got math to cipher that.
Seriously, what grey matter I have is good for artsy stuff but my math isn't good enough to do physics.
At first blush, I'd say it looks like you're talking about anti-matter.

Well we already know antimatter and matter annihilate each other giving off a much more tremendous amount of energy compared to fission of fusion. We are not seeing this. What I am saying is possibly the matter being crushed to a singularity or a single point may actually break through the fabric of space. The black hole could be releasing the matter or what it has been changed into. It could be another dimension with completely different rules than our dimension. As matter is compressed it heats. Also when you compress and heat matter it can change state and even become something entirely new. When released on the other side pressure maybe reduced and it may cool changing state again as well turn into something new. That is the problem with not knowing what is happening is the possibilities are infinite.

 

[JacksinPA]

Wow, this is exciting stuff!

But the thing is, we still can't see or measure anything on the other side of the event horizon, because there is simply no material that can exist beyond it, much less escape from it!

I don't think we have any evidence to support that view. The first law of chemistry & physics: matter can neither be created no destroyed. The Einstein E=mc^2 equation that gave rise to nuclear energy is an obvious exception, matter being converted directly into energy. I believe that the gravitational & magnetic forces inside the black hole renders matter into a plasma of fundamental atomic particles & gamma (X) rays. If we can identify such a source via astronomy a case could be made that we're looking at the 'other' side of a black hole existing either in an alternative universe or elsewhere in our own. Only a special probe could determine whether or not this was true.

 

[Deuce]

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IMO, the attached photo should not be possible. I believe a black hole is spherical & not flat. The photo shows a flat object surrounded by glowing stellar matter. It should, IMO, be a bright circular blob instead of a black disc.

View attachment 67254603

Are you making some kind of joke or do you actually not understand your computer screen is two-dimensional.

 

[Deuce]

I don't think we have any evidence to support that view. The first law of chemistry & physics: matter can neither be created no destroyed. The Einstein E=mc^2 equation that gave rise to nuclear energy is an obvious exception, matter being converted directly into energy. I believe that the gravitational & magnetic forces inside the black hole renders matter into a plasma of fundamental atomic particles & gamma (X) rays. If we can identify such a source via astronomy a case could be made that we're looking at the 'other' side of a black hole existing either in an alternative universe or elsewhere in our own. Only a special probe could determine whether or not this was true.

E=mc^2 is not an exception at all, much less an obvious one. You fundamentally don't understand it, so maybe you should stop trying to invent explanations about things.

 

[zyzygy]

I agreed with most of what you said, but this is one of those banal platitudes that people say to show off their own sophistication more than anything else.

Gravity just is attraction between massive objects. There's not an object out there called gravity causing it.



There's no evidence that strings exist. It's a neat exercise in mathematics, but there's no good reason to think that String Theory actually corresponds to anything in reality.

Gravity is not an attraction. It's caused by massive objects warping spacetime.

 

[Chomsky]

I don't think we have any evidence to support that view. The first law of chemistry & physics: matter can neither be created no destroyed. The Einstein E=mc^2 equation that gave rise to nuclear energy is an obvious exception, matter being converted directly into energy. I believe that the gravitational & magnetic forces inside the black hole renders matter into a plasma of fundamental atomic particles & gamma (X) rays. If we can identify such a source via astronomy a case could be made that we're looking at the 'other' side of a black hole existing either in an alternative universe or elsewhere in our own. Only a special probe could determine whether or not this was true.

I really can't give a credible opinion here. It's because I believe the laws of physics within a black hole are likely different than that outside. It's similar to trying to explain the physics in the initial moment of the big bang. Or like trying to understand the physics of the singularity that produced the big bang.

We've gone from Newtonian Mechanics, to Quantum Mechanics, to Relativity. And every leaped forward negated much of the rules previously in place. So who knows how many more leaps we may make, before we understand the physics of a black hole? I surely can't render a guess!