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Arkansas new Ten Commandments monument at Capitol destroyed

I disagree with the 10 commandments being displayed on government property. It clearly violates the 1st amendment. But vandalism is not the proper response.
 
What would there be a monument to? Besides, the whole point of non-religious monuments put up by atheists or Satanists, is to show the utter stupidity of having monuments in the first place. You can't have monuments for everyone, so you shouldn't have monuments for anyone.

That is a ridiculous statement. I don't see the point of a 10 commandments monument that they put up. however if Atheists don't have a moment they want to put up that shouldn't mean others cant.
 
That is a ridiculous statement. I don't see the point of a 10 commandments monument that they put up. however if Atheists don't have a moment they want to put up that shouldn't mean others cant.

Separation of church and state. Religion has no business on government property, period. You either cater to all or you cater to none. The only rational answer is catering to none. The religious can find private property to put their nonsense on.
 
Your understanding of the Constitution is warped.
You do understand that you haven't even made the barest pretense of an argument, right?

Decades of jurisprudence show that while each situation can have unique circumstances that require careful deliberation by the courts, and can involve state laws that vary, it is not up to the states to determine when a law or policy violates the First Amendment. It's ultimately subject to the federal Constitution, not state constitutions.

The courts have recognized that the First Amendment was fully incorporated to the states since 1947. For matters relevant to the discussion here:

Incorporation of Free Exercise Clause 1940 https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/310/296/case.html

Incorporation of Establishment Clause 1947 https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/330/1/case.html

Other rights incorporated include:
Freedom of speech, press, assembly; right to counsel in felony and capital cases; right to public trial, confront witnesses, impartial jury, obtain defense witnesses, speedy trial, jury trial in non-petty cases, notice of accusation, right to keep & bear arms; protection from self-incrimination, double jeopardy, cruel and unusual punishment, government seizing property without compensation

And yes, prior to incorporation, states could and did reject the application of some of these rights to citizens. Barron v Baltimore (1833) determined that the Bill of Rights (specifically, via the Takings Clause) did not apply to the state government.

So. Should citizens now stop saying the Constitution can protect citizens from state laws banning handguns? That's one implication of your position that "incorporation is wrong."

Another right that you're tossing out? Protections from self-incrimination in state courts. California could, according to you, pass a law saying testimony can be compelled in state courts. Or: A state could seize your property without giving you any compensation.

You good with that?
 
That's insane. Why can't atheists put up their own monument on public grounds? Or *puke* Satanists? Any court that says one can be favored over the other is an illegitimate court and needs to be kicked off the bench. In the eyes of the Constitution, all belief groups are equal.

How exactly is not believing in something a "belief group"?
 
How exactly is not believing in something a "belief group"?
Just FYI, non-belief is treated by US law as a type of "belief system" in terms of rights and restrictions.

E.g. your boss can't fire you because he or she found out you're an atheist.** Similarly, the state can keep religion out of public schools, and can teach science (including evolution and similar topics that some religious individuals do not believe), but it cannot mandate students to renounce their religious beliefs.


** unless you work at a house of worship, with well-documented beliefs and a requirement for employees to adhere to the organization's values
 
It's both. It is the right to be free from religious influence in government.

I can still remember having christian religion teachings shoved down my throat in the public schools as an atheist.

Without freedoms from religion there is no religion freedom.

An at that time in history such figures as Madalyn Murray O'Hair was hated to a degree that I hoped is hard to understand now days for her daring to be a loud nonbeliever.

This was long before I found out that beside O'Hair where was Jefferson and Paine and so on and I was not alone with Madalyn the most hated woman in the nation at the time.
 
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Separation of church and state. Religion has no business on government property, period. You either cater to all or you cater to none. The only rational answer is catering to none. The religious can find private property to put their nonsense on.

And do you have evidence that they didn't cater to all? besides the supreme court has ruled in the past contrary to what you are saying.
 
you'd just repeatedly dump a load of cases into a post. Then, if I read them, they turned out to be pretty much irrelevant to the issue at hand.

I have never cited any Supreme Court decision in a post here which was not relevant to the point being discussed, and yet claimed it was. But I can understand why someone who did not understand a case I cited might think it was irrelevant. Both Establishment Clause decisions I mentioned in my earlier post--Capitol Square Review Board and Pleasant Grove City, Utah--involved religious monuments in public places and were entirely relevant to this thread.

Which is pretty much what Visbek is pointing out, in more patient terms than I have.

What his posts point out is that he usually has not read the decisions he brings up and has only a vague, superficial understanding of them. If a few minutes of reading someone else's synopsis of what a Supreme Court decision means on some internet site were all that were required to understand it thoroughly, they wouldn't make you actually read and analyze cases in law school.

You're cherry-picking quotes (a major no-no, which would lose one all credibility before a judge, especially an appellate justice), you're citing borderline relevant and/or irrelevant cases (another major no-no).

Of course I have never done any such thing. I did not and do not think it was necessary to make my post even longer by including Justice Douglas' pro forma nod to the general separation of church and state in Zorach v. Clauson. Douglas was distinguishing McCollum in Zorach, and Justice Black had authored the majority opinions in both that case and in the Court's first Establishment Clause case, Everson. Douglas was going to call Zorach the other way, needed a majority to join his opinion, and considered it advisable to affirm that he agreed with the view Black had taken in the earlier two cases--up to a point.

There would be silly and intolerable consequences if the Court interpreted the Establishment Clause to build a solid wall between church and state, as some people here would like it to, and that is just what the part of Douglas' opinion I quoted points out.
 
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I have never cited any Supreme Court decision in a post here which was not relevant to the point being discussed, and yet claimed it was. But I can understand why someone who did not understand a case I cited might think it was irrelevant. Both Establishment Clause decisions I mentioned in my earlier post--Capitol Square Review Board and Pleasant Grove City, Utah--involved religious monuments in public places and were entirely relevant to this thread.
*shrug*

Again, Capital Square and Summum are in the same general area, but didn't answer the question as you claimed. Specifically, they don't tell us how the courts would rule if this specific monument was (will be?) challenged.

Nor have you actually defended their relevance to this particular discussion. No surprise there.


What his posts point out is that he usually has not read the decisions he brings up and has only a vague, superficial understanding of them.
Yes, cherry-picking rulings and legal concepts, and substituting insults for arguments, is a much better approach. Keep up the good work!


I did not and do not think it was necessary to make my post even longer by including Justice Douglas' pro forma nod to the general separation of church and state in Zorach v. Clauson.
Yes, those two short paragraphs were definitely taxing our cognitive resources. :mrgreen:

Anyway... Yes, a further explication was necessary, hence my adding context.

Among other issues, Douglas wasn't making a "pro forma nod" to the separation of church and state, he wasn't discussing our "Protestant roots," he didn't write a survey of the history of the Establishment Clause in American jurisprudence. He was supporting McCollum (in which he voted with the majority) and the idea of a strong separation of church and state. He pointed out that we don't want to take the separation to extremes. Somehow, that nuance was lost in your quote and interpretation. How.... convenient

We may also want to note that Douglas voted with the majority on Lemon. His reasoning was different (hence his concurrence), but he wasn't openly critical of the test.

Your comments also didn't discuss Cephus' allegations of bias. Ooops

I might add, I concur that the separation of church and state could be taken too far -- as can any legal precept, really. Rather, I'm pointing out that you appear to have mischaracterized Douglas' views. He wasn't a critic of the separation; your quotation was excessively brief and taken out of context; and it doesn't provide a "more accurate" description of the Establishment Clause. (More accurate than what, by the way...?)
 
View attachment 67219275


LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — Officials say Arkansas’ new Ten Commandments monument was destroyed by someone driving a vehicle into it less than 24 hours after the monument was placed on state Capitol grounds.

Secretary of State’s Office spokesman Chris Powell says Capitol Police arrested the male suspect early Wednesday. The suspect’s name and motive haven’t been released.

The stone monument fell to the ground and broke into multiple pieces.

The privately funded monument was 6 feet tall (1.8 meters) and weighed 6,000 pounds (2,721 kilograms). It was installed Tuesday morning on the southwest lawn of the Capitol with little fanfare and no advance notice. A 2015 law required the state to allow the display near the Capitol, and a state panel last month gave final approval to its design and location.


Read more: https://apnews.com/cd6d8a4529a24681...en-Commandments-monument-at-Capitol-destroyed


Yea Yea Yea I know, we need wait for more information :2razz:

Maybe it was a strong Storm that blew it over :roll:

Just as Moses did...So good for him/her
 
*shrug*

Again, Capital Square and Summum are in the same general area, but didn't answer the question as you claimed. Specifically, they don't tell us how the courts would rule if this specific monument was (will be?) challenged.

Nor have you actually defended their relevance to this particular discussion. No surprise there.



Yes, cherry-picking rulings and legal concepts, and substituting insults for arguments, is a much better approach. Keep up the good work!



Yes, those two short paragraphs were definitely taxing our cognitive resources. :mrgreen:

Anyway... Yes, a further explication was necessary, hence my adding context.

Among other issues, Douglas wasn't making a "pro forma nod" to the separation of church and state, he wasn't discussing our "Protestant roots," he didn't write a survey of the history of the Establishment Clause in American jurisprudence. He was supporting McCollum (in which he voted with the majority) and the idea of a strong separation of church and state. He pointed out that we don't want to take the separation to extremes. Somehow, that nuance was lost in your quote and interpretation. How.... convenient

We may also want to note that Douglas voted with the majority on Lemon. His reasoning was different (hence his concurrence), but he wasn't openly critical of the test.

Your comments also didn't discuss Cephus' allegations of bias. Ooops

I might add, I concur that the separation of church and state could be taken too far -- as can any legal precept, really. Rather, I'm pointing out that you appear to have mischaracterized Douglas' views. He wasn't a critic of the separation; your quotation was excessively brief and taken out of context; and it doesn't provide a "more accurate" description of the Establishment Clause. (More accurate than what, by the way...?)

The Court's Establishment Clause jurisprudence is a jumbled, contradictory mess. I think Justice Thomas suggested the best way to resolve it in his concurring opinion in Elk Grove Unified School Dist. v. Newdow. Thomas is one of several Supreme Court justices who have taken the view that the Court grossly misinterpreted the Establishment Clause by incorporating it, bringing about the very result the clause was intended to prevent. Questions about religious establishments by states--whether the inclusion of Santa Claus or plastic reindeer makes a public Christmas display secular enough, whether the Ten Commandments may be posted in a state building, whether a school district may have students recite the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, etc., etc.--should not even raise a constitutional issue.

Because I agree with that view, Lynch, Allegheny, Stone v. Graham, McCreary County, Salazar v. Buono, Capitol Square Review Bd., Van Orden v. Perry, Pleasant Grove City, and so on strike me as somewhat arbitrary and unprincipled--as if the Court were each time making it up as it went. As Thomas noted, that is just what the majority did in Elk Grove Unified, because it realized it had painted itself into a corner. There are certain parts of the Constitution the Court has seemed to be unable to figure out. The Takings Clause is another one. I (and a lot of others) have the same feeling about the Court's line of takings decisions, which dates back to the 1800's.
 
The Court's Establishment Clause jurisprudence is a jumbled, contradictory mess. I think Justice Thomas suggested the best way to resolve it in his concurring opinion in Elk Grove Unified School Dist. v. Newdow. Thomas is one of several Supreme Court justices who have taken the view that the Court grossly misinterpreted the Establishment Clause by incorporating it, bringing about the very result the clause was intended to prevent. Questions about religious establishments by states--whether the inclusion of Santa Claus or plastic reindeer makes a public Christmas display secular enough, whether the Ten Commandments may be posted in a state building, whether a school district may have students recite the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, etc., etc.--should not even raise a constitutional issue.

Because I agree with that view, Lynch, Allegheny, Stone v. Graham, McCreary County, Salazar v. Buono, Capitol Square Review Bd., Van Orden v. Perry, Pleasant Grove City, and so on strike me as somewhat arbitrary and unprincipled--as if the Court were each time making it up as it went. As Thomas noted, that is just what the majority did in Elk Grove Unified, because it realized it had painted itself into a corner. There are certain parts of the Constitution the Court has seemed to be unable to figure out. The Takings Clause is another one. I (and a lot of others) have the same feeling about the Court's line of takings decisions, which dates back to the 1800's.

By the 1800's You mean the Marshall court?
 
View attachment 67219275


LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — Officials say Arkansas’ new Ten Commandments monument was destroyed by someone driving a vehicle into it less than 24 hours after the monument was placed on state Capitol grounds.

Secretary of State’s Office spokesman Chris Powell says Capitol Police arrested the male suspect early Wednesday. The suspect’s name and motive haven’t been released.

The stone monument fell to the ground and broke into multiple pieces.

The privately funded monument was 6 feet tall (1.8 meters) and weighed 6,000 pounds (2,721 kilograms). It was installed Tuesday morning on the southwest lawn of the Capitol with little fanfare and no advance notice. A 2015 law required the state to allow the display near the Capitol, and a state panel last month gave final approval to its design and location.


Read more: https://apnews.com/cd6d8a4529a24681...en-Commandments-monument-at-Capitol-destroyed


Yea Yea Yea I know, we need wait for more information :2razz:

Maybe it was a strong Storm that blew it over :roll:

You mean the big storm who drove his car into it? There was nothing "storm" about it only a hurricane of stupidity. No matter how much you disagree with an eyesore like this in front of the state capital, you have no business driving your car into it. Hope he gets to pay for a new one, which he can chisel out of stone when sitting in the big house.
 
This is for anyone who imagines the Lemon test continues to enjoy broad support on the Supreme Court. The following passage, from a dissenting opinion written by Justice Scalia in Lee v. Weisman, a case decided 25 years ago, should make clear that Lemon has been pretty much a dead letter for a long time. I was going to cut and paste the entire opinion, but it seemed a little long. So here is my selected part of Scalia's dissent, and anyone who thinks I am leaving out other parts of it in order to deceive can go to the decision and read the whole thing for himself.




Our Religion Clause jurisprudence has become bedeviled (so to speak) by reliance on formulaic abstractions that are not derived from, but positively conflict with, our long accepted constitutional traditions. Foremost among these has been the so-called Lemon test, see Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U. S. 602, 612-613 (1971), which has received well-earned criticism from many Members of this Court. See, e. g., County of Allegheny, 492 U. S., at 655-656 (opinion of KENNEDY, J.); Edwards v. Aguillard, supra, at 636-640 (SCALIA, J., dissenting); Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U. S., at 108-112 (REHNQUIST, J., dissenting); Aguilar v. Felton, 473 U. S. 402, 426-430 (1985) (O'CONNOR, J., dissenting); Roemer v. Board of Pub. Works of Md., 426 U. S. 736, 768-769 (1976) (WHITE, J., concurring in judgment). The Court today demonstrates the irrelevance of Lemon by essentially ignoring it, see ante, at 587, and the interment of that case may be the one happy byproduct of the Court's otherwise lamentable decision. Unfortunately, however, the Court has replaced Lemon with its psycho-coercion test, which suffers the double disability of having no roots whatever in our people's historic practice, and being as infinitely expandable as the reasons for psychotherapy itself.
 
The Court's Establishment Clause jurisprudence is a jumbled, contradictory mess.
So it's like... every other aspect of constitutional law. Noted.

Of course, it is possible that it's a "jumbled mess" because any judgment will necessarily be subjective, and there is not (and never will be) any easy way to determine if something has violated the Establishment Clause. Further, the people who need to make that call change over time, as do their ideas about the relevant laws and standards, and the circumstances of the various cases.

To the extent that you criticize it because "it isn't simple," or because not every ruling is 100% consistent with your (highly idiosyncratic) beliefs, then you are making an unreasonable demand of the law and the courts.


Thomas is one of several Supreme Court justices who have taken the view that the Court grossly misinterpreted the Establishment Clause by incorporating it....
Yes, and his views on incorporation are thoroughly rejected by the legal community. IIRC even Scalia didn't agree with Thomas on that view.

And what is the view? For some odd reason, you showed off your chops by... not explaining it.



Thomas' view is... slightly bizarre. It relies not only on his usual radical Textualism, but a radical reading of the text:

The Establishment Clause provides that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” As a textual matter, this Clause probably prohibits Congress from establishing a national religion. But see P. Hamburger, Separation of Church and State 106, n. 40 (2002) (citing sources). Perhaps more importantly, the Clause made clear that Congress could not interfere with state establishments, notwithstanding any argument that could be made based on Congress’ power under the Necessary and Proper Clause.

He believes that individual states are empowered to establish official religions, whereas the federal government cannot establish a national religion. Further, the federal government should not be allowed to interfere in states that establish official religions.

On this basis, he concludes that the Establishment Clause is not an individual right, and should not be selectively incorporated.

The first problem here is with (surprise!) his extreme Textualism. He's deliberately ignoring the intent of its author and the other Framers, particularly Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments ("The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right" etc).

The second is with the reading of the text. To put it mildly, it's a stretch. A plain-English rendering, and the way Americans have understood it for centuries, is closer to "Congress shall make no law that establishes a state religion." His reading just doesn't make sense, which is probably why so few people interpret it as he does.

A third problem is that this does involve individual rights. While the Free Exercise Clause protects an individual's freedom of religion, the Establishment Clause protects an individual's freedom from religion -- i.e. protection against the state imposing religious beliefs on individuals. This is not necessarily restricted to coercion, as I as an individual am certainly impacted if my state gives preferential treatment to a religion to which I do not belong. Again, see Madison's Memorial.


On a side note, Thomas does not espouse a judicial philosophy one can accept selectively. You cannot be a radical Textualist with the Establishment Clause, and then drop it when it comes to other provisions. At a minimum, there certainly is nothing in any of the Constitution which justifies such inconsistent application of Textualism. So, is that your method of Constitutional interpretation? Are you really committed to that view?

<< cont'd >>
 
Because I agree with that view, Lynch, Allegheny, Stone v. Graham, McCreary County, Salazar v. Buono, Capitol Square Review Bd., Van Orden v. Perry, Pleasant Grove City, and so on strike me as somewhat arbitrary and unprincipled....
Then so should Zorach v. Clauson. Which you quoted -- albeit in an unjustifiably selective manner -- in support of your position.

If you did in fact accept Thomas' view, then you should declare that the federal government is not empowered to have any say whatsoever in the matter of students leaving school grounds to receive religious instruction. (I certainly see no indication that Douglas would agree with Thomas.)

Similarly, the Thomas position allows certain possibilities that many Americans would reject. California could declare Secular Humanism as the official state religion; Dearborn MI could post text of the Koran in schools. The only question the federal courts could address is whether the subsequent policies violate the Free Exercise Clause (as it is an individual right, and validly incorporated to the states), e.g. by coercing individuals to engage in religious observations.

You good with that? Have you thought this one through? Or are you just latching on to any decision that supports your belief that it's OK for the government to establish a religion?

Further, the Thomas view should not imply that other decisions are "arbitrary" or "unprincipled" or "making it up as they go along." That's irrelevant. You should only say "the federal government has no business here, unless it involves the Free Exercise Clause / coercion."


As Thomas noted, that is just what the majority did in Elk Grove Unified, because it realized it had painted itself into a corner.
Yeah... no.

The majority in Elk Grove was consumed with questions of standing, not questions of the Establishment Clause. Thomas and Rehnquist just used their concurrences as an opportunity to discuss their views on the Establishment Clause. It wouldn't make any sense for Thomas to proclaim "the majority's position of the Establishment Clause has switched yet again!" because... there wasn't really anything there. Nor did he directly criticize Rehnquist's reasoning as inconsistent with precedent.

The closest he came to any of that was criticizing the notion of "coercion" as discussed in Lee, and explained his views on the Establishment Clause.


And for the record:
• You still haven't explained how Capital Square and Summum provide us with any potential guidance on the question at hand (how the court might rule on this monument)

• You did not justify what seems to be a deliberate misinterpretation of Douglas' position, to try and paint him as hostile to the Establishment Clause / separation of church and state.
 
This is for anyone who imagines the Lemon test continues to enjoy broad support on the Supreme Court. The following passage, from a dissenting opinion written by Justice Scalia in Lee v. Weisman....
One good citation deserves another.

Scalia's dissent in Lamb's Chapel, one year after Lee:

Like some ghoul in a late night horror movie that repeatedly sits up in its grave and shuffles abroad, after being repeatedly killed and buried, Lemon stalks our Establishment Clause jurisprudence once again, frightening the little children and school attorneys of Center Moriches Union Free School District. Its most recent burial, only last Term, was, to be sure, not fully six feet under: our decision in Lee v. Weisman, 505 U. S. ----, ---- (1992) (slip op., at 7), conspicuously avoided using the supposed "test" but also declined the invitation to repudiate it. Over the years, however, no fewer than five of the currently sitting Justices have, in their own opinions, personally driven pencils through the creature's heart (the author of today's opinion repeatedly), and a sixth has joined an opinion doing so....

The secret of the Lemon test's survival, I think, is that it is so easy to kill. It is there to scare us (and our audience) when we wish it to do so, but we can command it to return to the tomb at will.


I.e. one year after a ruling that you use to claim the court doesn't abide by Lemon, Scalia is squealing because... err... his colleagues applied the Lemon Test.

While such dissents are often entertaining, they are also often powerless. Obergefell is one example, King v Burwell is another. So are these rulings, as the Lemon Test is still in use.

I'm also fairly confident that Scalia's comments in Lamb and Lee do not comport with Thomas' position that the government stay out of most such decisions. Don't you agree?
 
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