Are Polite Cultures More Violent?

[Gathomas88]

A number of studies have indicated that societies which are known for exceptionally high levels of hospitality, and generally "polite" behavior, also tend to have exceptionally high levels of violence and murder.

This is apparently seen most prominently in Hunter Gatherer societies; some of which come off as being veritable egalitarian paradises on the surface, but actually hide murder rates several times higher than the US average under the surface.

Cultural Shaping of Violence: Victimization, Escalation, Response

However, it is also seen in the United States itself, and the South in particular.

Insult, Aggression, and the Southern Culture of Honor:
An "Experimental Ethnography"

While there arguably might be a number of different reasons for that (poverty, racial differences related to cultural tensions left over from slavery and segregation, and etca), there is some evidence to suggest that Southern culture itself might play a role.

According to the above study, when Southerners and Northerners were both faced with the prospect of dealing with an aggressive or overtly insulting person under laboratory conditions, the Northerners would simply toss the abuse back, but remain more or less unaffected outside of that. Southerners, however, would try to remain passive for far longer, before ultimately exploding in violence after reaching a certain breaking point.

This was reflected on a hormonal level as well. Even while remaining outwardly polite, Southern men registered almost double the levels of Testosterone and Cortisol in response to an overt insult than did Northern men.

The roots of that seem to be psychological more than anything else. The more restrictive the social code, the more negative the emotional reaction when one violates that code. Likewise, it is also likely tied to repression. The longer one holds on to a negative emotion, the more explosive it will be when eventually released.

Though... Arguably, the initial inclination towards politeness could also originate with an explicit cultural desire not to tick people off in the first place, because one knows just how badly such things tend to turn out. :lol:

In any case, it is an interesting phenomena. Honestly, I'm not really sure which approach I prefer.

While it's probably a good thing not having to deal with the kind of culture where you have to worry about being shanked over any imagined insult (think of most mob movies, for example, or anything having to do with the Italian Renaissance) , I'm not really sure if the opposite is desirable either.

Frankly, even with the increased violence, I'd much rather live in a generally pleasant and "honorable" society, where abrasive assholes are put in their place, than one where they are allowed to prance around freely, dumping all over everyone free of consequence.

Maybe that's just me. :shrug:

 

[Simon W. Moon]

We blame the violence on the heat.

 

[cpwill]

We blame the violence on the heat.

So it's Global Warming to blame. Figures.

 

[Goshin]

A number of studies have indicated that societies which are known for exceptionally high levels of hospitality, and generally "polite" behavior, also tend to have exceptionally high levels of violence and murder.

This is apparently seen most prominently in Hunter Gatherer societies; some of which come off as being veritable egalitarian paradises on the surface, but actually hide murder rates several times higher than the US average under the surface.

Cultural Shaping of Violence: Victimization, Escalation, Response

However, it is also seen in the United States itself, and the South in particular.

Insult, Aggression, and the Southern Culture of Honor:
An "Experimental Ethnography"

While there arguably might be a number of different reasons for that (poverty, racial differences related to cultural tensions left over from slavery and segregation, and etca), there is some evidence to suggest that Southern culture itself might play a role.

According to the above study, when Southerners and Northerners were both faced with the prospect of dealing with an aggressive or overtly insulting person under laboratory conditions, the Northerners would simply toss the abuse back, but remain more or less unaffected outside of that. Southerners, however, would try to remain passive for far longer, before ultimately exploding in violence after reaching a certain breaking point.

This was reflected on a hormonal level as well. Even while remaining outwardly polite, Southern men registered almost double the levels of Testosterone and Cortisol in response to an overt insult than did Northern men.

The roots of that seem to be psychological more than anything else. The more restrictive the social code, the more negative the emotional reaction when one violates that code. Likewise, it is also likely tied to repression. The longer one holds on to a negative emotion, the more explosive it will be when eventually released.

Though... Arguably, the initial inclination towards politeness could also originate with an explicit cultural desire not to tick people off in the first place, because one knows just how badly such things tend to turn out. :lol:

In any case, it is an interesting phenomena. Honestly, I'm not really sure which approach I prefer.

While it's probably a good thing not having to deal with the kind of culture where you have to worry about being shanked over any imagined insult (think of most mob movies, for example, or anything having to do with the Italian Renaissance) , I'm not really sure if the opposite is desirable either.

Frankly, even with the increased violence, I'd much rather live in a generally pleasant and "honorable" society, where abrasive assholes are put in their place, than one where they are allowed to prance around freely, dumping all over everyone free of consequence.

Maybe that's just me. :shrug:

I could've just told them all that, no need for a study.


Yes, Southerners tend to put a higher value on politeness and honor. Yes, insults and provocations are likely to produce anger, and possibly violence. Yes, Southern men are disinclined to let themselves be pushed around or insulted without retaliation. Don't like it, live somewhere else.


But don't worry... the younger generation doesn't seem to be absorbing too much of this. In another 20 years the South will probably be nearly as rude and without honor as any other part of the country.

 

[Gathomas88]

I could've just told them all that, no need for a study.


Yes, Southerners tend to put a higher value on politeness and honor. Yes, insults and provocations are likely to produce anger, and possibly violence. Yes, Southern men are disinclined to let themselves be pushed around or insulted without retaliation. Don't like it, live somewhere else.


But don't worry... the younger generation doesn't seem to be absorbing too much of this. In another 20 years the South will probably be nearly as rude and without honor as any other part of the country.

That does seem to be the case, unfortunately.

I'll be curious to see if - per this theory - the murder rate responds accordingly. lol

 

[Goshin]

That does seem to be the case, unfortunately.

I'll be curious to see if - per this theory - the murder rate responds accordingly. lol

The rise in Meth will probably keep it high.

 

[bg85]

this sort of confirms what i've always thought based on my experiences: "southern" culture stresses politeness which in turn results in folks talking about other folks behind their backs a lot more so than in other places. eventually, when two people can no longer pretend to like each other any longer, it will result in a much more violent outcome than actually addressing the issue up front.

 

[shrubnose]

We blame the violence on the heat.

Sometimes it's mighty hard not to get ticked-off when you're soaked wet with sweat from the heat and humidity.

Been there, done that.

 

[shrubnose]

So it's Global Warming to blame. Figures.

I hadn't really thought about it but maybe that has something to do with the increasing level of violence all over this planet.

And maybe the heat is why the people who live in the hotter parts of this planet seem to be at war so much of the time.

 

[bg85]

I hadn't really thought about it but maybe that has something to do with the increasing level of violence all over this planet.

hasn't violence been steadily decreasing for a couple thousand years now?

 

[Goshin]

this sort of confirms what i've always thought based on my experiences: "southern" culture stresses politeness which in turn results in folks talking about other folks behind their backs a lot more so than in other places. eventually, when two people can no longer pretend to like each other any longer, it will result in a much more violent outcome than actually addressing the issue up front.

When I was a young man, my mother's sister and my cousins came to visit (at my parent's house). Female Cuz had a young man in tow, her BF.... and I recognized him as a guy who had once pulled a knife on me over a stupid incident.

Nonetheless, he was a guest of my kinfolk and a guest IN my parent's home... he was therefore not to be touched if he gave no further immediate offense.


I gritted my teeth and was polite, pretending I didn't recognize or remember him. I left the room as soon as decorum permitted.... and went off and STEAMED for a while. I could have cheerfully shot him in the face just then, to be sure.

Starting **** with a guest in your family home Simply Is Not Done, however. Everyone Knows That. Low-class trashy behavior.


Yet my head was about to explode.


Finally I formulated a plan, to catch him as he was leaving and offering to "meet" him later, without specifying why... figured he'd know, but Cuz and the rest wouldn't. Unfortunately as I sought to implement this plan I found they'd already left.


Never saw him again. He died in a car crash a couple years later. :shrug:

 

[cpwill]

I hadn't really thought about it but maybe that has something to do with the increasing level of violence all over this planet.

..... violence is lower all over the planet (broadly speaking).

 

[shrubnose]

hasn't violence been steadily decreasing for a couple thousand years now?

Not since WWI started I don't believe.

 

[Goshin]

Not since WWI started I don't believe.

Per capita I KNOW it is down throughout the USA since a high in the late 1970s.


I think it has been trending down worldwide too.

 

[shrubnose]

Per capita I KNOW it is down throughout the USA since a high in the late 1970s.

I think it has been trending down worldwide too.

Maybe better days are coming and the USA can stop acting as the World Police.

That would be nice.

 

[Unrepresented]

Curious if they controlled for population density. Nothing gets you used to dealing with unreasonable people as living in larger cities.

 

[Nilly]

Not since WWI started I don't believe.

Absolute numbers must be higher but there are far more of us now. I suspect 'violence per capita' (obviously not a real thing) is lower now than ever before (although admittedly that's largely a guess).

 

[Gathomas88]

When I was a young man, my mother's sister and my cousins came to visit (at my parent's house). Female Cuz had a young man in tow, her BF.... and I recognized him as a guy who had once pulled a knife on me over a stupid incident.

Nonetheless, he was a guest of my kinfolk and a guest IN my parent's home... he was therefore not to be touched if he gave no further immediate offense.


I gritted my teeth and was polite, pretending I didn't recognize or remember him. I left the room as soon as decorum permitted.... and went off and STEAMED for a while. I could have cheerfully shot him in the face just then, to be sure.

Starting **** with a guest in your family home Simply Is Not Done, however. Everyone Knows That. Low-class trashy behavior.


Yet my head was about to explode.


Finally I formulated a plan, to catch him as he was leaving and offering to "meet" him later, without specifying why... figured he'd know, but Cuz and the rest wouldn't. Unfortunately as I sought to implement this plan I found they'd already left.


Never saw him again. He died in a car crash a couple years later. :shrug:

Yea. I've been there. I actually wouldn't mind introducing a couple of the people here to a bit of pain either, if we're being completely honest (though, obviously, I won't name names). :lol:

Apparently, the prevailing theory for how this came about is due to the strong Northern English and Scottish influence in the South. The "Borderlands" between England and Scotland were an incredibly violent place throughout the Middle Ages and Early Modern era; prone to raids, ethnic strife, and blood feuds. Colonists to the Americas simply brought that culture with them.

It's been watered down a bit over the centuries, but some of the foundations are still present.

 

[bg85]

When I was a young man, my mother's sister and my cousins came to visit (at my parent's house). Female Cuz had a young man in tow, her BF.... and I recognized him as a guy who had once pulled a knife on me over a stupid incident.

Nonetheless, he was a guest of my kinfolk and a guest IN my parent's home... he was therefore not to be touched if he gave no further immediate offense.


I gritted my teeth and was polite, pretending I didn't recognize or remember him. I left the room as soon as decorum permitted.... and went off and STEAMED for a while. I could have cheerfully shot him in the face just then, to be sure.

Starting **** with a guest in your family home Simply Is Not Done, however. Everyone Knows That. Low-class trashy behavior.


Yet my head was about to explode.


Finally I formulated a plan, to catch him as he was leaving and offering to "meet" him later, without specifying why... figured he'd know, but Cuz and the rest wouldn't. Unfortunately as I sought to implement this plan I found they'd already left.


Never saw him again. He died in a car crash a couple years later. :shrug:

maybe if you guys had talked it out your sister might have found out who he was and not ended up with an asshole knife fighter. not saying either way of handling the situation is superior, just posing an alternative viewpoint.

 

[Goshin]

Absolute numbers must be higher but there are far more of us now. I suspect 'violence per capita' (obviously not a real thing) is lower now than ever before (although admittedly that's largely a guess).

Per Capita is a very real thing. I'd say it is actually more important than the absolute numbers since those change per population growth. "Per capita" tells you much more clearly what the odds are of a given generic person running into it.

 

[bg85]

Yea. I've been there. I actually wouldn't mind introducing a couple of the people here to a bit of pain either, if we're being completely honest (though, obviously, I won't name names). :lol:

Apparently, the prevailing theory for how this came about is due to the strong Northern English and Scottish influence in the South. The "Borderlands" between England and Scotland were an incredibly violent place throughout the Middle Ages and Early Modern era; prone to raids, ethnic strife, and blood feuds. Colonists to the Americas simply brought that culture with them.

It's been watered down a bit over the centuries, but some of the foundations are still present.

that's a damn interesting point about the Scottish/English connection. makes a lot of sense.

 

[blackjack50]

We blame the violence on the heat.

So true lol.

 

[Northern Light]

It depends on the reason for the politeness.

Victorian cultures are passive aggressive. They say one thing and do another. That's different than, say, Scandinavian cultures which are quite polite due to having formed liberal civil societies where people can express themselves across most situations.

Sometimes politeness is indicative of a mature culture, or an immature one. It depends.

I personally don't find southern u.s. culture honorable. It is still enclave driven and based on factors like privilege and conformity. If you stick out there you will know it.

 

[Goshin]

maybe if you guys had talked about it like men your sister might have found out who he was and not ended up with an asshole knife fighter. not saying either way of handling the situation is superior, just posing an alternative viewpoint.

I wasn't telling the story as if it were an ideal way of dealing with such things. Obviously it wasn't. But it was, nonetheless, a true story about the way things are traditionally done in the South.

We were both young men, and no doubt both intemperate hotheads.

I'm now pushing 50 and with the perspective of time and experience would certainly have handled that situation very differently. Also, times and customs have changed as well, and I would expect my own son (a young man) to handle such an instance differently than I did thirty-plus years ago.

I grew up in the 70s and early 80s, a time when violence was much more common... extremely so among young men. That has changed a lot, thankfully.

 

[blackjack50]

Per Capita is a very real thing. I'd say it is actually more important than the absolute numbers since those change per population growth. "Per capita" tells you much more clearly what the odds are of a given generic person running into it.

I agree as disagree. Per capita has to take into account certain factors to be accurate. Population size can affect that. 1 murder in a town of 500 people? That doesn't make it more likely. It could have been cheating spouse and it will not happen again for 20 years.