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Are Electors still relevant?

Ikari said:
That's fair enough, I think that people can have rational reasons for wanting to switch to the popular vote. But I do think the fundamental of it is sound and just. This is a Republic, the States matter. The founders were worried about popularism, which I think is a legitimate concern. I don't think they ever thought our party system would have devolved and stagnated to such a degree that the choice was Clinton/Trump or Biden/Trump. But that's not on the EC. When your choice is Pile of **** A and Pile of **** B, you're going to get a Pile of **** no matter what.
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pretty much.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
The winner of the presidency should be by the United States as well as the people of the entire country. Taking away the vote of most of our states by population means we are no longer the United States of America.
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Yes it would. Take another federal republic - say Germany

It has no EC, yet is still Germany
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes it would. Take another federal republic - say Germany

It has no EC, yet is still Germany
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Germany is not the United States of Germany however this is not America but the United States of America. Like I said you need to do a lot more research to understand that we are not just a country but 50 states that make up a country.
 
BrotherFease said:
I hope you realized there were a lot of electors who disliked Clinton and Trump, but couldn't vote their conscience. This was a direct violation of the intention of the founders. Preventing a demagogue or tyrant was the reason for humans voting. I remember before the real election, newspaper columnist were writing: This is why we have the electoral college, to prevent somebody like Trump from being President. Ironically the faithless electors were more so against Clinton. A Democrat elector in Colorado wanted to vote for John Kasich, but was forced to step aside.
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I think that we really do need to understand and stress the importance of the Faithless Elector. In my opinion, it's right up there with Jury Nullification as necessities to the Republic.
 
Rich2018 said:
Maybe so but it still exists, and should not in any democracy
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We are not a democracy. We are a representative republic. More to the point, it was a specific choice, with direct popular vote as one of the alternatives.

How do you know it works as designed as that Trump's election is the law of unintended consequences working in practice?
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We know because the results line up with the design. It's just like Congress--part by population and part by geography.

There's no evidence that there'd be a difference at all.
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Sure there is. It's for a subtle shift, if any at all, but you cannot say there no evidence.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Germany is not the United States of Germany...
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No, it is the Federal Republic of Germany

I would remain so with or without an Electoral College


however this is not America but the United States of America....
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A distinction most "Americans" (meaning US citizens) don't understand


Mexicans are "Americans", indeed they're even "North Americans"



Like I said you need to do a lot more research to understand that we are not just a country but 50 states that make up a country.
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I kinda knew that

And Germany is 16 states that make up a country
And Mexico is 31 states that make up a country.
 
Rich2018 said:
And Germany is 16 states that make up a country
And Mexico is 31 states that make up a country.
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But when they came together to become a country the states made sure they would still be governed by the state government. Everything was and is still fine except for the people like you who cannot accept defeat and want to change what made this country great. Sorry but I do not want mob rule or a king. I want a constitution to protect the rights of the individual and the minority from mob rule. I want a senate to protect the majority of states from mob rule by a few states that think they should tell everyone how to live. I like the fact that all the states take part in the election along with the majority. Sorry if a lot of us do not want to be bullied by the mob majority.
 
Helix said:
I'm arguing that we should fix that. If Republicans want their latest idiot to win, they should get more votes.
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That would take 38 states to ratify a change to the treaty. I don't actually see that happening, but maybe. Don't give up hope.
 
Samwise said:
That would take 38 states to ratify a change to the treaty. I don't actually see that happening, but maybe. Don't give up hope.
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i also don't see it happening. too many people have too much to gain by winning while losing.
 
Helix said:
i also don't see it happening. too many people have too much to gain by winning while losing.
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One can't win and lose simultaneously. Not sure what you're talking about.
 
Samwise said:
One can't win and lose simultaneously. Not sure what you're talking about.
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the EC has proven that it won't prevent incompetent madmen from becoming president. it now effectively only serves to help idiots to win when they lost the popular vote. that's a dumb system that i don't support.
 
I'd have no problem eliminating the Electoral College, simply applying each individual States Electoral Vote to the candidate who won the popular vote.
Both Houses of Congress are filled by the result of the popular vote, and sometimes a minority of voters are able to apply a check upon Congress by electing the President.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
But when they came together to become a country the states made sure they would still be governed by the state government. Everything was and is still fine except for the people like you who cannot accept defeat and want to change what made this country great. Sorry but I do not want mob rule or a king. I want a constitution to protect the rights of the individual and the minority from mob rule. I want a senate to protect the majority of states from mob rule by a few states that think they should tell everyone how to live. I like the fact that all the states take part in the election along with the majority. Sorry if a lot of us do not want to be bullied by the mob majority.
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I perfectly understand the arguments for the popular vote. If the popular vote went away, I wouldn't be sad about it. I just think founders wanted to make both the large and small colonies happy and create a system where demagogues get weeded out. We have been a country for over 200 years and never had a dictatorship. Political powers have been pretty well spread out. Electors about 99% of the time, go with their assigned candidate.
 
Rich2018 said:
No, it is the Federal Republic of Germany

I would remain so with or without an Electoral College




A distinction most "Americans" (meaning US citizens) don't understand


Mexicans are "Americans", indeed they're even "North Americans"






I kinda knew that

And Germany is 16 states that make up a country
And Mexico is 31 states that make up a country.
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Rich, I think you do make good points. The National Vote Interstate Compact could very well get enacted if they get 270 guarantee votes. I just think we need to think about removing safeguards.
 
Helix said:
the EC has proven that it won't prevent incompetent madmen from becoming president. it now effectively only serves to help idiots to win when they lost the popular vote. that's a dumb system that i don't support.
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There is no popular vote for the office of president.
 
Helix said:
i support get more votes or go home.
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I think it would be interesting for states to appoint their electors without any kind of vote. Simply appoint learned and erudite citizens and allow them to vote for the person they thought was most qualified.
 
Samwise said:
I think it would be interesting for states to appoint their electors without any kind of vote. Simply appoint learned and erudite citizens and allow them to vote for the person they thought was most qualified.
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those pesky voters. why even bother? let's just appoint the next right wing moron.
 
Helix said:
those pesky voters. why even bother? let's just appoint the next right wing moron.
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How do you know she would be right wing?
 
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