Arctic Ocean and Greenland ice sheet see record June melting

[EnigmaO01]

How much smaller than the North Atlantic conveyor do you think the entire melt in summer off Greenland is? What do you think the ratio is?

Do you understand that the ocean current is driven by the wind. The wind will continue to blow.

More ignorance. Oh. My. God!:lamo

 

[Media_Truth]

LOL...

You're funny.

Of course, with equal conditions of those not specified, the one with warmer variables will melt faster.

I just think it's stupid that you think you have to dumb it down, and then miss critical aspects.

Leave yourself enough rope... and I will hang you!@

It's not quite as simple as you believe - especially when it comes to the melting of ice from air contact. Heat transfer coefficients are variable, with the the velocity of the airstream.

Convective Heat Transfer Coefficient for Air
The convective heat transfer coefficient for air flow can be approximated to

hc = 10.45 - v + 10 v1/2 (2)

where

v = relative speed between object surface and air (m/s)

Note! - this is an empirical equation and can be used for velocities 2 to 20 m/s.

The last footnote demonstrates some of the additional complexities. New methods must be used for velocities outside this range. States of matter are also important, because the largest amounts of heat and cooling can be achieved through latent state changes. This is the basis of air conditioners, refrigerators, and heat pumps. This can also happen in nature. Scientists (and even Technicians) - Chemists, Physicists, Engineers - spend their entire lives studying these issues.

 

[Threegoofs]

It's not quite as simple as you believe - especially when it comes to the melting of ice from air contact. Heat transfer coefficients are variable, with the the velocity of the airstream.

Convective Heat Transfer Coefficient for Air
The convective heat transfer coefficient for air flow can be approximated to

hc = 10.45 - v + 10 v1/2 (2)

where

v = relative speed between object surface and air (m/s)

Note! - this is an empirical equation and can be used for velocities 2 to 20 m/s.

The last footnote demonstrates some of the additional complexities. New methods must be used for velocities outside this range. States of matter are also important, because the largest amounts of heat and cooling can be achieved through latent state changes. This is the basis of air conditioners, refrigerators, and heat pumps. This can also happen in nature. Scientists (and even Technicians) - Chemists, Physicists, Engineers - spend their entire lives studying these issues.

Well, LoP thought about in between posts- about 2.5 minutes, so he knows what he’s talking about!

 

[marke]

Once again....the heat is on.

Temperatures leap 40 degrees above normal as the Arctic Ocean and Greenland ice sheet see record June melting
Not good.

Fake Vietnam veteran Indian chief weather drum beating prayer to mother nature:
'Oh great godless goddess of the sky, save us from the heat that is being caused by rich nations in their greed and selfishness driving them to kill the planet. Help us fight the industrialists, the capitalists, the bankers, the corporate executives and, especially, the Christians who are creating this problem by hindering the free flow of trillions of dollars of government money needed to stop dangers such as cow farts which are tearing this land apart. Give us bright, brilliant, vibrant, young, succulent prophets and leaders like AOC to lead the fight against the white slave owners who are doing so much damage to our pristine nation of tree huggers. Amen.'

 

[Quaestio]

Fake Vietnam veteran Indian chief weather drum beating prayer to mother nature:
'Oh great godless goddess of the sky, save us from the heat that is being caused by rich nations in their greed and selfishness driving them to kill the planet. Help us fight the industrialists, the capitalists, the bankers, the corporate executives and, especially, the Christians who are creating this problem by hindering the free flow of trillions of dollars of government money needed to stop dangers such as cow farts which are tearing this land apart. Give us bright, brilliant, vibrant, young, succulent prophets and leaders like AOC to lead the fight against the white slave owners who are doing so much damage to our pristine nation of tree huggers. Amen.'

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get Raptured .... any day now. Then you can leave this less than 10,000 year old earth behind.

 

[Tim the plumber]

The guy with the ZERO science degree speaks again. Here is the formula for heat transfer from water to ice ---

SPECIFIC HEAT AND HEAT OF FUSION

In this part of the experiment, the heat of fusion of water will be determined. Warm water will be used to melt ice, and the change in temperature of the water in the calorimeter will be used to compute the amount of energy extracted from the water to melt the ice. The ice must absorb heat in order to melt. The heat absorbed can be expressed as

Heat gained by ice = Heat lost by water
View attachment 67259805

where Lf is the symbol for the heat of fusion in calories/gram. The necessary heat will be transferred from the warm water to the ice.

As any novice scientist could see, the Temperature does matter. As the water temperature rises, the amount of heat transferred to the ice increases. A similar formula can be used for air, except there is also convection heat transfer, which is greater with wind velocity.

We understand the equation. You don't.

A novice would understand that the air temperature matters. Matters a tiny insignificant bit. Which is why it is not in the equation.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Quibble-quibble-quibble! Then you will have no problem showing the difference, using the formula, of say 5 deg C.

View attachment 67259807

With what values for the masses? And are you still assuming the ice is at zero c and the water at 5c?

Note the no need to know the air temperature.

 

[Tim the plumber]

WTF?! :shock: The hell is it! pH has it's own logarithmic scale of 1 to 14 and the only relationship it has with alkalinity is alkalinity acts as a buffer to pH changes. Alkalinity is measured in ppm or mg/l .

Dude, as a science major that also involved chemistry and limnology you have lost ALL credibility with me. Maybe you need to stick to plumbing.

https://sciencing.com/measure-acidity-alkalinity-7776075.html

"When testing the acidity or alkalinity of an item you are referring to the pH, also known as potential hydrogen. The pH of an item is measured by finding the concentration of hydrogen ions an item contains in moles. Measuring the acidity or alkalinity of an item comes in handy for many items such as foods, personal care products, soil and much more. The pH is best obtained in liquid form. A neutral item such as water is often mixed with the item being measured."

 

[Tim the plumber]

More ignorance. Oh. My. God!:lamo

So how big do you think the North Atlantic current, the Gulf Stream, is and how big do you think the out flow from Greenland is?

 

[Tim the plumber]

It's not quite as simple as you believe - especially when it comes to the melting of ice from air contact. Heat transfer coefficients are variable, with the the velocity of the airstream.

Convective Heat Transfer Coefficient for Air
The convective heat transfer coefficient for air flow can be approximated to

hc = 10.45 - v + 10 v1/2 (2)

where

v = relative speed between object surface and air (m/s)

Note! - this is an empirical equation and can be used for velocities 2 to 20 m/s.

The last footnote demonstrates some of the additional complexities. New methods must be used for velocities outside this range. States of matter are also important, because the largest amounts of heat and cooling can be achieved through latent state changes. This is the basis of air conditioners, refrigerators, and heat pumps. This can also happen in nature. Scientists (and even Technicians) - Chemists, Physicists, Engineers - spend their entire lives studying these issues.

You are talking to an engineer.

LoP is an engineer.

Life studying this sort of thing.

Sacked if he ever got it wrong.

Needed to understand it.

You don't.

 

[Media_Truth]

We understand the equation. You don't.

A novice would understand that the air temperature matters. Matters a tiny insignificant bit. Which is why it is not in the equation.

Of course air temperature matters. I stated that in my very last sentence. Sounds like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. When you come up with some coherent, I will be glad to address it.

 

[Tim the plumber]

The guy with the ZERO science degree speaks again. Here is the formula for heat transfer from water to ice ---

SPECIFIC HEAT AND HEAT OF FUSION

In this part of the experiment, the heat of fusion of water will be determined. Warm water will be used to melt ice, and the change in temperature of the water in the calorimeter will be used to compute the amount of energy extracted from the water to melt the ice. The ice must absorb heat in order to melt. The heat absorbed can be expressed as

Heat gained by ice = Heat lost by water
View attachment 67259805

where Lf is the symbol for the heat of fusion in calories/gram. The necessary heat will be transferred from the warm water to the ice.

As any novice scientist could see, the Temperature does matter. As the water temperature rises, the amount of heat transferred to the ice increases. A similar formula can be used for air, except there is also convection heat transfer, which is greater with wind velocity.

Of course air temperature matters. I stated that in my very last sentence. Sounds like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. When you come up with some coherent, I will be glad to address it.

Air temperature is not a factor in the equation you posted.

That you do not understand this reflects very badly on US education.

 

[Media_Truth]

Air temperature is not a factor in the equation you posted.

That you do not understand this reflects very badly on US education.

Perhaps you should learn to read. This was my last sentence.

"A similar formula can be used for air, except there is also convection heat transfer, which is greater with wind velocity."

 

[Tim the plumber]

Perhaps you should learn to read. This was my last sentence.

"A similar formula can be used for air, except there is also convection heat transfer, which is greater with wind velocity."

A similar formulae can indeed be used but the air temperature was not in your initial one because the degree of transfer from the air to the bucket would be tiny in comparison to the thermal capacity of the contents over the time it would take to melt the ice.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I guess sometimes you have to break things down to simplicity for some folks. The title of this thread is "Arctic Ocean and Greenland ice sheet see record June melting". It's fairly elementary - if Ice Sample A is in an environment of warmer air and warmer water than Ice Sample B, we will say "Sayonara" to Ice Sample A first.

Except I have explained before, and you obviously are capable of doing the math. The math at how albedo changes from aerosols have a far greater warming potential then temperature changes.

Then...

I responded to a post dealing with ice mass. You go on with "counting pixels" which is surface area. Not mass.

I think you are too ignorant of the facts and conversation to be talking down to anyone.

 

[Lord of Planar]

A similar formulae can indeed be used but the air temperature was not in your initial one because the degree of transfer from the air to the bucket would be tiny in comparison to the thermal capacity of the contents over the time it would take to melt the ice.

Funny how he finds an equation on the internet, and he thinks he has a BS degree.

Well, it's most certainly BS!

 

[Media_Truth]

A similar formulae can indeed be used but the air temperature was not in your initial one because the degree of transfer from the air to the bucket would be tiny in comparison to the thermal capacity of the contents over the time it would take to melt the ice.

With air, there is the additional component of convection melting. If you're such a qualified Engineer, you should be able to calculate both components, or at a minimum, back up your statement.

 

[Media_Truth]

Except I have explained before, and you obviously are capable of doing the math. The math at how albedo changes from aerosols have a far greater warming potential then temperature changes.

Then...

I responded to a post dealing with ice mass. You go on with "counting pixels" which is surface area. Not mass.

I think you are too ignorant of the facts and conversation to be talking down to anyone.

Great, I showed my math. Now show yours for the albedo effect.

 

[Tim the plumber]

With air, there is the additional component of convection melting. If you're such a qualified Engineer, you should be able to calculate both components, or at a minimum, back up your statement.

You have no clue at all about what you are talking.

To do that is extremely complex. You need to understand the aerodynamics of the situation. Things like how deep inside the bucket the water level is and what shape the ice is etc.

Just quoting equations will not intimidate us Skeptics. We understand basic algebra.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Great, I showed my math. Now show yours for the albedo effect.

You showed you can dig up an equation from the internet. You have also shown you are incapable of using it.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Great, I showed my math. Now show yours for the albedo effect.

I have shown in the past, the change in heat to snow and ice because of albedo changes. It is much greater than the changes in CO2 forcing. It'a much greater than a small temperature increase of the air.

 

[Media_Truth]

You showed you can dig up an equation from the internet. You have also shown you are incapable of using it.

That equation from the Internet adequately showed the folly of your statement earlier --- "If so then there will be very little difference in melt time". Temperatures matter, and I would advise that you choose your words more wisely.

 

[Media_Truth]

I have shown in the past, the change in heat to snow and ice because of albedo changes. It is much greater than the changes in CO2 forcing. It'a much greater than a small temperature increase of the air.

You haven't shown diddly...

 

[EnigmaO01]

How to Measure for Acidity or Alkalinity | Sciencing

"When testing the acidity or alkalinity of an item you are referring to the pH, also known as potential hydrogen. The pH of an item is measured by finding the concentration of hydrogen ions an item contains in moles. Measuring the acidity or alkalinity of an item comes in handy for many items such as foods, personal care products, soil and much more. The pH is best obtained in liquid form. A neutral item such as water is often mixed with the item being measured."

Your quote only shows your ignorance about water chemistry. One more time: stick to plumbing.

 

[EnigmaO01]

So how big do you think the North Atlantic current, the Gulf Stream, is and how big do you think the out flow from Greenland is?

I was referring to your idea that current is entirely produced by wind. There are a lot of factors that go into producing a current like water temperature and salinity differences. If wind was the only factor we wouldn't have deep water currents.