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AP FACT CHECK: Trump trashing virus science he doesn’t like

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AP FACT CHECK: Trump trashing virus science he doesn’t like

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Hydroxychloroquine ... can be dangerous and even lethal.

5/23/20
When President Donald Trump doesn’t like the message, he shoots the messenger. So it was this past week when he took very personally a scientific study that should give pause to anyone thinking of following Trump’s lead and ingesting a potentially risky drug for the coronavirus. He branded the study’s researchers, financed in part by his own administration, his “enemy.” Heading into Memorial Day weekend, Trump then exaggerated some of his accomplishments for veterans’ health care. A look at recent rhetoric and reality as the pandemic’s death toll approached 100,000 in the U.S.: TRUMP, on why he considers hydroxychloroquine safe for the treatment of COVID-19: “I’ve received a lot of positive letters and it seems to have an impact. And maybe it does; maybe it doesn’t. But if it doesn’t, you’re not going to get sick or die. THE FACTS: On Friday, a study published by the journal Lancet suggested that hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, with or without an antibiotic, did not help hospitalized patients and was tied to a greater risk of death or heart rhythm problems.

TRUMP: “There was a false study done where they gave it to very sick people — extremely sick people, people that were ready to die. THE FACTS: Trump and his VA secretary are incorrect. Researchers did use standard statistical methods to adjust for differences in the groups being compared, including clinical status and the presence of other chronic health conditions. TRUMP: “We’ve done the greatest job maybe of anything in the VA, because I got VA Choice ... approved.” THE FACTS: False. He didn’t get Veterans Choice approved; President Barack Obama did in 2014. TRUMP: “Choice is when they wait for two months to see a doctor ... they go outside, they get themselves a good doctor, we pay the bill, and they get taken care of.” THE FACTS: His suggestion that veterans no longer have waits for care because of the Choice program is also false.
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Just another day trying to clean up behind Donald Trumps lies.

Vote for your Democrat candidate for US Senate on November 3[sup]rd[/sup]​
 
I don’t believe that Trump took one dose of Hydroxychloroquine......
 
Purposely studying a narrow category of people (veterans only, extremely ill people only, etc.) and then "adjusting" the results to account for that fact is complete crap (sorry, not sure which words I'm allowed to post:mrgreen:)

The study published in the Lancet was a mysterious retrospective observational study which surfaced at a calculated political moment in time, of hundreds of thousands of patients worldwide, from hundreds of different hospitals, which somehow managed to accurately sort patients into experimental groups based on their exact courses of medication, based on hospital data from around the globe which was months old

People in the pharmaceutical industry have no problem accusing politicians of lying or being corrupt, but when politicians accuse people in the pharmaceutical industry of lying or being corrupt it's like Armageddon :lamo

Scientists can be corrupt, just like politicians - they're not on some kind of a different moral level
 
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ReubenSherr said:
Purposely studying a narrow category of people (veterans only, extremely ill people only, etc.) and then "adjusting" the results to account for that fact is complete crap (sorry, not sure which words I'm allowed to post:mrgreen:)

The study published in the Lancet was a mysterious retrospective observational study of hundreds of thousands of patients worldwide, from hundreds of different hospitals, which somehow managed to accurately sort patients into experimental groups based on their exact courses of medication, based on hospital data from around the globe which was months old

People in the pharmaceutical industry have no problem accusing politicians of lying or being corrupt, but when politicians accuse people in the pharmaceutical industry of lying or being corrupt it's like Armageddon :lamo

Scientists can be corrupt, just like politicians - accusing them of corruption isn't far-fetched
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It's true, pharmaceuticals are notorious for lying to people and paying off the CDC to get drugs approved. IE: Fen phen.
 
Not only that, left-leaning media outlets dwell on the studies that come out against HCQ and ignore the studies that come out supporting it - so much so, that the studies in support of it get buried in search engines behind 5 pages of wall-to-wall media references to the same two studies in the NEJM
 
Same ole Trump.

Different decade.
 
ReubenSherr said:
Purposely studying a narrow category of people (veterans only, extremely ill people only, etc.) and then "adjusting" the results to account for that fact is complete crap (sorry, not sure which words I'm allowed to post:mrgreen:)
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And your obviously ignorant analysis of the study is complete "crap" as well.

The study published in the Lancet was a mysterious retrospective observational study which surfaced at a calculated political moment in time, of hundreds of thousands of patients worldwide, from hundreds of different hospitals, which somehow managed to accurately sort patients into experimental groups based on their exact courses of medication, based on hospital data from around the globe which was months old
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Yeah, it's clear you didn't read the study, so you have no clue at all how they gathered the data. It wasn't miraculous at all, unless the way Amazon sorts customers, and miraculously gets an order from you and sends it to YOUR address, and charges YOUR credit card is also miraculous and you've never heard of computers or data bases. If that's where you are, why not catch up to the 20th century, then you won't be so amazed at how computers allow for efficient retrieval of data, such as hospital records. After that, you can move on to the 21st century, before making amazingly ignorant statements.

People in the pharmaceutical industry have no problem accusing politicians of lying or being corrupt, but when politicians accuse people in the pharmaceutical industry of lying or being corrupt it's like Armageddon :lamo

Scientists can be corrupt, just like politicians - they're not on some kind of a different moral level
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Ah, yes, nothing quite so powerful as citing unnamed "people in the pharmaceutical industry" or unnamed "scientists" who can be corrupt. Sure they can, and if you want to dismiss studies because of fears of corruption, that's fine if you want to wallow in ignorance, but the rest of us won't follow you down that rathole.
 
Moot said:
It's true, pharmaceuticals are notorious for lying to people and paying off the CDC to get drugs approved. IE: Fen phen.
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So we should ignore clinical trials, and any other studies about drug effectiveness?

It's hilarious, almost, that Trump lies his ass off and an army of lemmings rush in to defend his lies with the oldie but toddler goody - BUT MOM, THEY DID IT TOO!!! FIRST!!!

The problem is there's no basis for accusing anyone involved in the HCL studies of any corruption. It's made up. Trump doesn't like the result because he pimped that drug for weeks, and so the study must be corrupt because Dear Leader cannot be wrong. Every day I understand better how they do things in places like North Korea.
 
Rexedgar said:
I don’t believe that Trump took one dose of Hydroxychloroquine......
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You never know, he is half moron half liar, so either could be true, the thing is he is so delusional that I don't thin even he knows which is true...
 
ReubenSherr said:
Not only that, left-leaning media outlets dwell on the studies that come out against HCQ and ignore the studies that come out supporting it - so much so, that the studies in support of it get buried in search engines behind 5 pages of wall-to-wall media references to the same two studies in the NEJM
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That's just a lie. I did the search - "is hydroxychloroquine effective studies" - and those appearing to support the effectiveness of the drug appeared several times on the first page.
 
JasperL said:
That's just a lie. I did the search - "is hydroxychloroquine effective studies" - and those appearing to support the effectiveness of the drug appeared several times on the first page.
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Then why isn't the left-wing media mentioning these studies?;) The title of the thread should be "Left-Wing Media Conveniently Ignoring Virus Science It Doesn't Like"
 
JasperL said:
Yeah, it's clear you didn't read the study, so you have no clue at all how they gathered the data.
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We did a multinational registry analysis of the use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19. The registry comprised data from 671 hospitals in six continents. We included patients hospitalised between Dec 20, 2019, and April 14, 2020, with a positive laboratory finding for SARS-CoV-2. Patients who received one of the treatments of interest within 48 h of diagnosis were included in one of four treatment groups (chloroquine alone, chloroquine with a macrolide, hydroxychloroquine alone, or hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide), and patients who received none of these treatments formed the control group.

This isn't reliable data - There is no consistent way to define the point of "diagnosis," in terms of the progression of the illness, when gathering data electronically from 671 hospitals worldwide on hundreds of thousands of patients - Some patients are diagnosed when they're in early stages of the illness, some patients are diagnosed in later stages

They're including data from patients who were diagnosed in December 2019, before the illness was even understood - and the study claims to have data exclusively on patients treated in the early stages of the disease, before doctors could even recognize what the early stages of the disease were

It's also being released at a key political moment, when the NEJM studies have been criticized for only studying patients in the late stages of the illness, yet it involves weeks/months of retrospective data collection - I'm extremely suspicious
 
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noonereal said:
of course he did, he is an irrational germophobe
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A true germaphobe would not be shaking hands all the time for starters. He shows no evidence of being a germaphobe. Just naother one of his lies.
 
straykatz said:
A true germaphobe would not be shaking hands all the time for starters. He shows no evidence of being a germaphobe. Just naother one of his lies.
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you clearly do not understand

peace
 
JasperL said:
if you want to dismiss studies because of fears of corruption, that's fine if you want to wallow in ignorance
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Trump and his physician are proponents of using HCQ as a preventative, and as a treatment early in the stages of the disease.

This study in the Lancet is a survey of hospital patients -Why would patients in the extremely early stages of the disease be in hospitals?, especially in December and January

It has the same problem as the two studies from the NEJM and the Virginia study on veterans - It only studies patients, or mostly studies patients, in more severe stages of the illness
 
ReubenSherr said:
Not only that, left-leaning media outlets dwell on the studies that come out against HCQ and ignore the studies that come out supporting it - so much so, that the studies in support of it get buried in search engines behind 5 pages of wall-to-wall media references to the same two studies in the NEJM
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Please share some links.
 
 
ReubenSherr said:
Hydroxychloroquine Has about 90 Percent Chance of Helping COVID-19 Patients - AAPS | Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

Results from a Controlled Trial of Hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19

Early Hydroxychloroquine Is Associated with an Increase of Survival in COVID-19 Patients: An Observational Study[v1] | Preprints

Doctors group claims that hydroxychloroquine helps 91% of coronavirus patients | Daily Mail Online

Hydroxychloroquine rated 'most effective therapy' by doctors for coronavirus: Global survey - Washington Times

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-borough...thromycin-combo-on-decreasing-covid-19-deaths
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Thank you.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

"We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19."

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...droxychloroquine-effect-death-severe-covid-19

"A large study on the use of the antimalaria drug hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized COVID-19 patients found that the drug had no impact on the risk of the most severe outcomes from the disease"

Just goes to show science doesn't really know.
 
JasperL said:
So we should ignore clinical trials, and any other studies about drug effectiveness?

It's hilarious, almost, that Trump lies his ass off and an army of lemmings rush in to defend his lies with the oldie but toddler goody - BUT MOM, THEY DID IT TOO!!! FIRST!!!

The problem is there's no basis for accusing anyone involved in the HCL studies of any corruption. It's made up. Trump doesn't like the result because he pimped that drug for weeks, and so the study must be corrupt because Dear Leader cannot be wrong. Every day I understand better how they do things in places like North Korea.
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Did I say we should? Of course they should do clinical trials but that doesn't mean they don't cut corners and other shady things.

Pharmaceuticals are profit motivated...and only seem to research for cures when there's big money to be made...or when some rich guy like David Koch gets prostrate cancer and donates millions to find a cure.

It was the Fen Phen scam that soured me on the CDC. The drug was banned in Europe because it was killing people...but the CDC approved it anyway after a pharmaceutical company pushed it through.
 
ReubenSherr said:
Then why isn't the left-wing media mentioning these studies?;) The title of the thread should be "Left-Wing Media Conveniently Ignoring Virus Science It Doesn't Like"
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I see, so you lie about the search results, then move the goalposts.... I'm not chasing you down stupid ratholes.
 
ReubenSherr said:
We did a multinational registry analysis of the use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19. The registry comprised data from 671 hospitals in six continents. We included patients hospitalised between Dec 20, 2019, and April 14, 2020, with a positive laboratory finding for SARS-CoV-2. Patients who received one of the treatments of interest within 48 h of diagnosis were included in one of four treatment groups (chloroquine alone, chloroquine with a macrolide, hydroxychloroquine alone, or hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide), and patients who received none of these treatments formed the control group.

This isn't reliable data - There is no consistent way to define the point of "diagnosis," in terms of the progression of the illness, when gathering data electronically from 671 hospitals worldwide on hundreds of thousands of patients - Some patients are diagnosed when they're in early stages of the illness, some patients are diagnosed in later stages

They're including data from patients who were diagnosed in December 2019, before the illness was even understood - and the study claims to have data exclusively on patients treated in the early stages of the disease, before doctors could even recognize what the early stages of the disease were

It's also being released at a key political moment, when the NEJM studies have been criticized for only studying patients in the late stages of the illness, yet it involves weeks/months of retrospective data collection - I'm extremely suspicious
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And you know there's no consistent way to define "point of diagnosis" because why? What's your experience with these data? What don't they show that you would need to be consistent from hospital to hospital?

You're just making crap up, and it's not a "key political moment." The election is months away, there are a bunch of studies of HCL ongoing, those results will be released in due time, and if Trump tells you to, you'll dismiss those as well. We know the drill.
 
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