Anonymous Internet Forums - Being Bullied

[Rogue Valley]

DP is very safe, relatively speaking. Bullying is far easier and more commonplace on social media platforms such as FB, Twitter, VK, OK, etc.

Things can get really nasty on /b/ sites that require the onion browser (TOR). Doxing (this unfortunate fate occurs when peeps reveal too much RL info about themselves) happens frequently.

 

[Absentglare]

#1) I'm not so sure I implied bullying was impossible.

#2) How would anyone "force" you into limiting your use of the forum? You can chose to use an ignore feature. You can chose to avoid certain topics or areas. But are you "forced" ?

I avoid the gun control area with passion about 95% of the year. I'll drop in on a thread maybe once or twice, then gone. That's my choice. Am I bullied out of there? I don't think so. I just chose not to :2brickwal on those topics, while I might very well chose to do that on others.

You don't have to listen to, read, or otherwise respond to the responses your posts get.

I can dump and run an anti-gun post and never look back. So how would I get bullied in the gun control forum unless I went back and read all the responses, and then tried to answer them all, and fight back, and on and on and on.

I feel like you're been arguing that :

1) bullying is impossible on this media because your presence is voluntary (but that doesn't matter, your presence is always voluntary that doesn't justify bullying behavior)

2) bullying is impossible on his media because you have an ignore feature (same as 1)

3) bullying is impossible because this is anonymous (it doesn't matter if a bully knows your real name or not)

4) bullying doesn't matter because you should expect opposition (this ignores the distinction between genuine debate and bullying)

Is bullying a serious problem ? I have no idea. Probably not.

The idea that the gun control forum isn't riddled with inappropriate behavior, even if it isn't in outright violation of forum rules, is patently false.

 

[jet57]

by 'beat upon', you mean subjected to posts with which they disagree
that is not even close to bullying
let's examine some of your potential responses:
one mouse click takes you away from the very 'hostile' environment you obviously deplore
another will place that poster on 'ignore' so that their subsequent posts are not visible to you
yet another takes you to some other - presumably happier - place on the net
or you could refuse to read it
you could choose to not be offended by what was posted
you can walk away from your screen to avoid something you find distasteful
and you could even summon a response to ... wait for it ... debate the point of view which was posted; one with which you disagree


wrong again
the decision to leave is YOURS alone
maybe you are non-confrontational. that is not the other poster's problem


i am among that group of forum members who is an advocate of (very strong) gun control
they do not hound me away. because i do not allow them to. it is my choice to stay and do battle. and in this battle of wits they often arrive unarmed
does that cause me to be a bully - that they are unable to move my position with fact or persuasion
no. because they are not ******s who hold the opinion that anyone who strongly disagrees with them must be a bully. they are ******s because they believe they might be harmed unless they bear arms


only there are no rocks to be hurled. there are only words and images on a screen. how can those things possibly hurt you. some anonymous member - or sock of a member - is only able to present words and images. YOU alone are responsible with how you respond to those posted words and images
it's part of personal responsibility. you alone are responsible for your feelings. only immature people try to hold others responsible for how they personally feel

What you're saying here is that the forum bullies should just be allowed to carry on.

 

[justabubba]

What you're saying here is that the forum bullies should just be allowed to carry on.

if they are compliant with the TOS ... YES!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dragonfly]

I feel like you're been arguing that :

1) bullying is impossible on this media because your presence is voluntary (but that doesn't matter, your presence is always voluntary that doesn't justify bullying behavior)

2) bullying is impossible on his media because you have an ignore feature (same as 1)

3) bullying is impossible because this is anonymous (it doesn't matter if a bully knows your real name or not)

4) bullying doesn't matter because you should expect opposition (this ignores the distinction between genuine debate and bullying)

Is bullying a serious problem ? I have no idea. Probably not.

The idea that the gun control forum isn't riddled with inappropriate behavior, even if it isn't in outright violation of forum rules, is patently false.

I'm trying to talk things out a bit so I can get a better grasp of the topic.

What classifies as bullying is highly subjective. Right?

Very much along the lines of what's "offensive". Right?

If you post something that's outlandishly stupid, and you include a link to it that comes from a hyper-partisan hackish website, and the next 36 posts are condemning everything you posted as well as your pathetic choice for a "source", is that bullying?

If you're a rather fragile sort you might feel that way. If you complain that you're being bullied, does that mean it's so?

There's a very gray area here isn't there? A gray area that might span a large distance and cover a few different shades of gray.

 

[jet57]

Your OP asked a couple of question about whether bullying (in quotes) here can do real harm and whether bullies exist at all here. Based on your responses, I’d taken your answers to those questions to be no. Was I wrong?

If someone is actually being bullied and the only proposed “solution” is to do these things, I’d suggest the victim is being forced in to that action.

In which case you’re not engaging in debate. You’re free to use the forum in that way if you want (within the rules) but if someone wants to engage in actual debate, they do need to read the replies and respond to them. The actions of other posters against them could become so disruptive as to restrict their ability to do that, even if it’s just to the point of choosing to stop because it’s not worth the hassle.

All sorts of different behaviour could cause that problem for different posters and much of it couldn’t be classes as bullying but in some cases I’m sure it could.

Very well said. The type of bullying here could perhaps better be described as "harassment"; bullying IS harassment but with the anonymity of these forums, that type of facebook bullying isn't possible. The bullying around here is done by a minority of posters who haunt the gun control forum, and they misrepresent your post, they use the same old name calling, and really go out of their way to make sure that a poster will have a miserable experience for disagreeing. The intent, as I said before is to drive the poster off the gun forum. And as much as I know that these guys are reported, nothing changes. THAT says something about the admin...

I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way, and who knows how many posters stay off the gun threads for this very reason. So the gun thread bullies effectively win and that is sad commentary on the forum at large. Extreme right-wing people tend to act this way on any forum and I'm sure it has had a lot to do with their decline, social media notwithstanding.

 

[jet57]

I'm trying to talk things out a bit so I can get a better grasp of the topic.

What classifies as bullying is highly subjective. Right?

Very much along the lines of what's "offensive". Right?

If you post something that's outlandishly stupid, and you include a link to it that comes from a hyper-partisan hackish website, and the next 36 posts are condemning everything you posted as well as your pathetic choice for a "source", is that bullying?

If you're a rather fragile sort you might feel that way. If you complain that you're being bullied, does that mean it's so?

There's a very gray area here isn't there? A gray area that might span a large distance and cover a few different shades of gray.

Bullying IS NOT highly subjective. If someone says "stop it", and you don't, then you are engaging in harassment, which is bullying. You're not being physically bullied, but you are certainly being ganged up and abused, in the hope that you will leave.

THAT is bullying. It shouldn't be allowed to go on here. The Mods know who these people are. Reports are made on these people, and yet they persist. So the "if ya don't like it leave" attitude says nothing about the rules that we're supposed to abide by, but rather says a whole lot about what kind of forum this is.

 

[Dragonfly]

Bullying IS NOT highly subjective. If someone says "stop it", and you don't, then you are engaging in harassment, which is bullying. You're not being physically bullied, but you are certainly being ganged up and abused, in the hope that you will leave.

THAT is bullying. It shouldn't be allowed to go on here. The Mods know who these people are. Reports are made on these people, and yet they persist. So the "if ya don't like it leave" attitude says nothing about the rules that we're supposed to abide by, but rather says a whole lot about what kind of forum this is.

It certainly is subjective.

Attacking what somebody says is very different than attacking the person who says it.

If you feel you are being attacked, report it.
If your post is being attacked, that's fair game and it's why we're here.

Attacking your position on a specific topic isn't an attack on you.

Are some people like rabid pitbulls on meth regarding certain topics? Yes they are.
Put them on ignore and move on with life.
Don't respond to them unless they treat you as you'd like to be treated. You don't have to get sucked in. You chose to get sucked in.

Don't be the victim.

Say what you want to say and if it has merit, it'll stand.
Sure somebody might trash what you say, but that's their words, not yours.
Your words are still there.
So what if somebody takes it out of context and twists it around.
Does it really matter? If it does, call them out on it and fight your battle.

At some point you just have to walk away though. There are some people who absolutely must have the last word.
If you get sucked into that war you're gonna lose fairly often.

Don't take things so damn seriously. Did you come here to change peoples minds?
Not saying that it isn't possible once in a while, but if you aren't finding entertainment here, you might be in the wrong place.

 

[Gardener]

Bullying IS NOT highly subjective. If someone says "stop it", and you don't, then you are engaging in harassment, which is bullying. You're not being physically bullied, but you are certainly being ganged up and abused, in the hope that you will leave.

THAT is bullying. It shouldn't be allowed to go on here. The Mods know who these people are. Reports are made on these people, and yet they persist. So the "if ya don't like it leave" attitude says nothing about the rules that we're supposed to abide by, but rather says a whole lot about what kind of forum this is.

Stop it, Jet, NOW!

 

[jet57]

It certainly is subjective.

Attacking what somebody says is very different than attacking the person who says it.

If you feel you are being attacked, report it.
If your post is being attacked, that's fair game and it's why we're here.

Attacking your position on a specific topic isn't an attack on you.

Are some people like rabid pitbulls on meth regarding certain topics? Yes they are.
Put them on ignore and move on with life.
Don't respond to them unless they treat you as you'd like to be treated. You don't have to get sucked in. You chose to get sucked in.

Don't be the victim.

Say what you want to say and if it has merit, it'll stand.
Sure somebody might trash what you say, but that's their words, not yours.
Your words are still there.
So what if somebody takes it out of context and twists it around.
Does it really matter? If it does, call them out on it and fight your battle.

At some point you just have to walk away though. There are some people who absolutely must have the last word.
If you get sucked into that war you're gonna lose fairly often.

Don't take things so damn seriously. Did you come here to change peoples minds?
Not saying that it isn't possible once in a while, but if you aren't finding entertainment here, you might be in the wrong place.

Are some people like rabid pitbulls on meth regarding certain topics? Yes they are.

If someone says to stop "that", and the people doing it, continue to do it, that's bullying dude - full stop.

That's the point. It's what they do on meth that creates the problem. So rather than have a drug fee environment, we should allow the addiction to control areas of the board... And, I'm certainly not a victim, I'm someone who expects the board to behave as they would like to be treated; that is the job of the moderators. If I have to put 15 people on ignore because their on meth, then that's a problem that the board needs to address.

 

[Fearandloathing]

You asked/volunteered to join DP.
You control how you come across here.
You control how much of your "real" self is shown here.
You control what you post, and what you read.
You have an ignore feature in your control panel.
You can leave at any time.
Everything here is 100% voluntary on every level.
Nobody knows who you are in "real life".

Can someone seriously be "bullied" to the point of it being detrimental to their real world well being?

And if they can be pushed "too far" - who is at fault?
There's no reason to come to this web site outside of your own curiosity.

If DP is the straw that breaks the camel's back, it'd be way safe to say the camel was already carrying a massive load before making it to DP. Right?

Are there true "bullies" here at DP?
Is that more or less a reflection of real life?

May the force of "Ignore" be with you.

 

[justabubba]

Your OP asked a couple of question about whether bullying (in quotes) here can do real harm and whether bullies exist at all here. Based on your responses, I’d taken your answers to those questions to be no. Was I wrong?

If someone is actually being bullied and the only proposed “solution” is to do these things, I’d suggest the victim is being forced in to that action.

In which case you’re not engaging in debate. You’re free to use the forum in that way if you want (within the rules) but if someone wants to engage in actual debate, they do need to read the replies and respond to them. The actions of other posters against them could become so disruptive as to restrict their ability to do that, even if it’s just to the point of choosing to stop because it’s not worth the hassle.

All sorts of different behaviour could cause that problem for different posters and much of it couldn’t be classes as bullying but in some cases I’m sure it could.

[emphasis added by bubba]
absolutely a bogus assertion
and i hope i did not trample your feelings with that strongly worded objection

so disruptive as to restrict their ability to post
absolutely absurd
NOTHING about another's post prevents you in any way from continuing to post or opting to refrain from posting
you are responsible for your own emotional response to another member's post

 

[CrabCake]

The second you try to relate a person-to-person, real world threat to posts here at DP, you lose me.

Why?

I split it up into individual segments to amplify the point that there's no real difference between the two. Yes, you could leave this forum easily if you wanted to, the same applies to the park if that's where you were being bullied. Yes, you could attempt to ignore the bullying, as you could in the park, etc...

The only legitimate difference that I can see is that in the park it might escalate into a fistfight and on this forum it can't.

If there are other differences that make this unique, I'd like to hear them. If not, then the fact I lose you when I compare the two is a flaw in your thinking and you should consider correcting it.

Also, the ignore feature is a tool. Like any tool, if you use it correctly is provides a great deal of value. if you use it incorrectly, I guess you might feel "crippled" by it.
I rarely if ever use it, and when I do it's only temporary. I've found it's just as easy to simply use my brain and/or mouse button to ignore posts that I don't care to read.

You started out saying it has great value, then finished by explaining the same thing I explained, that it's useless because it's more beneficial to use your own brain to ignore the person than to use technology that prevents you from seeing what they said but doesn't stop anyone else from doing so.

I'm not trying to defend "internet bullying" here at DP. There are times when I wonder if that's in fact what I'm seeing happening here. Then I question whether or not it's bullying, or just passionate debate and perhaps over-sensitive reactions by the person who thinks they're being ganged-up upon.

You are shifting blame from the abuser to the abused. You are saying if people don't like being bullied they can always leave and go somewhere else, or ignore the bully, or they deserve it because they don't have thick enough skin. You are making an argument that being bullied here is not really bullying because....who knows? after every point you had was rebutted you retreated into a "you lose me when..." statement.

It doesn't take being here long to know almost exactly what response you're going to get from starting a thread.
You know who will support your comments, and who will jump on them and pick 'em apart.

This is the internet "fight club" is it not?

Are you only feeling bullied because you have a point of view that the majority here disagree with?
Or is it perhaps that you act like a class-A idiot and deserve some rougher treatment?

If a member here is treated "too roughly", how much of it is the overall membership/mod staff, and how much is it the person who's being treated badly and how they behave?

If you're an arrogant, belligerent, pedantic jerk who craps a ton of word vomit all over the forum, do you deserve to be treated a certain way by certain people?

I wonder how many of the people who feel like they've been bullied here would be classified rather quickly by the rest as having deserved whatever they got?
They reaped what they sowed?

It sounds to me like you are actually wanting to address a specific situation but trying to generalize it since you can't debate the specific situation. This just doesn't work. Yeah, maybe in that specific situation the person who feels bullied is wrong to feel that way. But the problem actually occurs when you generalize it and create a victim blaming thread when what you really mean is that this one instance isn't really bullying.

 

[HonestJoe]

NOTHING about another's post prevents you in any way from continuing to post or opting to refrain from posting

But if the actions of one or more other posters lead you to the point that you can't be bothered to try to engage in debate here, your ability to do so has been restricted. Note that I'm not saying that's automatically bullying, just true.

you are responsible for your own emotional response to another member's post

I don't think we can completely absolve ourselves from the consequences of how we behave on these forums (just as how we behave in any other social situation for that matter). If someone goes out of their way (or is so negligent as) to disrupt debate, target a specific poster for their own entertainment or constantly troll a forum with irrelevant posts they have some responsibility for the predictable consequences their actions may have.

 

[Dragonfly]

The bullying around here is done by a minority of posters who haunt the gun control forum, and they misrepresent your post, they use the same old name calling, and really go out of their way to make sure that a poster will have a miserable experience for disagreeing. The intent, as I said before is to drive the poster off the gun forum.

So this morning I posted a new thread in the GC forum. It's sure as heck going to get some feedback. No doubt some will pounce on it quite aggressively. (at this moment there are already 28 replies - and I haven't read a single one of them)

I have a choice here don't I?

I can go look at the responses.
I can ignore the responses.
I can react to the responses.
I can get belligerent with the responses.
I can accept that others won't agree with me, and some will downright hate what I've posted.

In any case here - are what others do and post in reference to that thread in the GC forum "forcing" me to do anything?

 

[Absentglare]

So this morning I posted a new thread in the GC forum. It's sure as heck going to get some feedback. No doubt some will pounce on it quite aggressively. (at this moment there are already 28 replies - and I haven't read a single one of them)

I have a choice here don't I?

I can go look at the responses.
I can ignore the responses.
I can react to the responses.
I can get belligerent with the responses.
I can accept that others won't agree with me, and some will downright hate what I've posted.

In any case here - are what others do and post in reference to that thread in the GC forum "forcing" me to do anything?

Sure, you're free to play the lottery or not play the lottery, therefore a lottery is fair.

You're free to pay taxes or leave the country, therefore taxes are fair.

You're free to be tortured via electrodes on your balls, or electrodes on your nipples, therefore torture is fair.

Or maybe the illusion of choice doesn't magically make everything better ...?

 

[Dragonfly]

Sure, you're free to play the lottery or not play the lottery, therefore a lottery is fair.

You're free to pay taxes or leave the country, therefore taxes are fair.

You're free to be tortured via electrodes on your balls, or electrodes on your nipples, therefore torture is fair.

Or maybe the illusion of choice doesn't magically make everything better ...?

What?

How is there an "illusion of choice"? Please explain how I am not in complete control over what I chose to do next with that thread.


Your lottery scenario - seems about right.
Your taxes thing - no.
The torture bit - :roll::doh:screwy

 

[Absentglare]

What?

How is there an "illusion of choice"? Please explain how I am not in complete control over what I chose to do next with that thread.


Your lottery scenario - seems about right.
Your taxes thing - no.
The torture bit - :roll::doh:screwy

The point i was making is that having choices does not make a situation fair. Having a choice that prevents a specific undesirable outcome (being on the receiving end of verbal abuse in the GC forum) doesn't make the undesirable outcome fair.

Being able to avoid the situation isn't a solution. That's just ignoring the problem.

Yeah i probably should have put more thought into those examples... But the ability to escape does not justify abusive behavior.

 

[AGENT J]

So this morning I posted a new thread in the GC forum. It's sure as heck going to get some feedback. No doubt some will pounce on it quite aggressively. (at this moment there are already 28 replies - and I haven't read a single one of them)

I have a choice here don't I?

I can go look at the responses.
I can ignore the responses.
I can react to the responses.
I can get belligerent with the responses.
I can accept that others won't agree with me, and some will downright hate what I've posted.

In any case here - are what others do and post in reference to that thread in the GC forum "forcing" me to do anything?

nope not one bit
any illusions of bullying that goes on here is made up in ones mind and the reality is they play a role in it themselves (keeping the illusion alive in their own head)

 

[AGENT J]

Sure, you're free to play the lottery or not play the lottery, therefore a lottery is fair.

You're free to pay taxes or leave the country, therefore taxes are fair.

You're free to be tortured via electrodes on your balls, or electrodes on your nipples, therefore torture is fair.

Or maybe the illusion of choice doesn't magically make everything better ...?

topic is about bullying what does fair (which is totally subjective) have to do with it? LMAO

 

[Gardener]

You're free to be tortured via electrodes on your balls, or electrodes on your nipples, therefore torture is fair.

Free?! Those sorts of specialized services do not come cheap! It's not like a quick blow and go, you know.

But sexual kinks aside, you aren't starting to micro-aggress dragonfly here, are you? We might need to create a safe space here since some of the thoughts you are expressing are double plus ungood.

 

[Absentglare]

topic is about bullying what does fair (which is totally subjective) have to do with it? LMAO

The point i was making is simply having other choices is not a valid reason to ignore being the subject of abuse for a specific choice that did not seem to merit said abuse.

Free?! Those sorts of specialized services do not come cheap! It's not like a quick blow and go, you know.

But sexual kinks aside, you aren't starting to micro-aggress dragonfly here, are you? We might need to create a safe space here since some of the thoughts you are expressing are double plus ungood.

Can you explain how ?

 

[AGENT J]

The point i was making is simply having other choices is not a valid reason to ignore being the subject of abuse for a specific choice that did not seem to merit said abuse.

yes and in this very specific case your point horrifically fails because nobody was discussing if its ok to ignore abuse. The question the OP asked was can bullying happen here and no it really cant without the so called victim participating and allowing it.
IN the case the OP set up since everything is voluntary and nobody has to be here and with choice and ignore options it cant really exist unless you let it. If you would like to start a new topic feel free.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I don't know about bullies, but there sure are an abundance of trolls that are a pain in the ass and provide little or nothing to the everyday conversations most of us are interested in having with our fellow DPers.

My ignore list is short...just ONE person. That was a member who felt the constant need to attack me personally and not respond to the argument.

I haven't had to add anyone else to my ignore list for three reasons:

1. I respect most of the members I have encountered since joining. We may not always agree, but I have no problems with honest arguments and counter-arguments they post.

2. As stated, the forum is anonymous. I personally avoid providing specific information about myself and don't seek to identify and "out" other members. I am more concerned about the validity of their posts and counter-arguments.

3. As my tag-line states, if I see no value in further responses, then I have no problem letting someone have the last word.

I don't think it is bullying when you enter a forum where established members have established positions and are fully willing to argue each one against all comers. If you want to hone your debate skills, that's exactly the kind of forum environment you would need.

If you post a thread that acts as a lightning rod for such members, you should expect nothing less. :shrug:

 

[Viv]

Yes, bullying happens on forums. I don't see why this one would be any different.

People should remember that not everyone who comes into forums is 100%.

As to why people can't just leave a forum, people do get attached. Who knows why, do you know why people smoke or drink or eat chocolate?

Better to block contact other than within threads and stay out of all that.

People should not be under any illusions about traceability.