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And the self destruct of the UK Tories has started (1 Viewer)

PeteEU

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Tories get their sums wrong in attack on teen pregnancy | Politics | The Guardian

The Conservatives launched the attack document, called Labour's Two Nations, to try to show the rise in inequalities under the current government. It claimed – three times – that women under 18 are "three times more likely to fall pregnant in the most deprived areas compared to the least deprived areas. In the most deprived areas 54% are likely to fall pregnant before the age of 18, compared to just 19% in the least deprived areas."

Only problem is...

The figures said that 54.32 per 1000 women aged 15-17 years old fell pregnant, which becomes 5.4%, not the 54% the Tories had arrived at.

Wups.

And it is not the only time this has happened recently.

This particular butter-fingered operation of the calculator appears to be careless rather than malicious but comes just 10 days after the shadow home secretary, Chris Grayling, was publicly rebuked by the head of the UK Statistics Authority Sir Michael Scholar.

Then Grayling was reprimanded for using non-comparable crime statistics to suggest rises in violent crime which Scholar warned were likely to damage public trust in official statistic

This does not help on the credibility issue with the Tories.

Add to the fact that 56% of Brits see Cameron as "a slick salesman, but I worry about what he is like underneath"

More than half of voters have doubts about 'slick' Cameron - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

Not exactly the best for a politician to be seen as, as it shows a clear lack of trust that he means what he says.
 
Tories get their sums wrong in attack on teen pregnancy | Politics | The Guardian



Only problem is...



Wups.

And it is not the only time this has happened recently.



This does not help on the credibility issue with the Tories.

Add to the fact that 56% of Brits see Cameron as "a slick salesman, but I worry about what he is like underneath"

More than half of voters have doubts about 'slick' Cameron - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

Not exactly the best for a politician to be seen as, as it shows a clear lack of trust that he means what he says.
wow, are the UK tories just stupid? Not even the republican party does **** like this...or rather their just smarter at it.

the only hope here is long-term...or at least according to Peter Hitchens, the only way there can be a true conservative party is if the conservatives lose.
 
You can half forgive statistical mistakes like this when they're made in speeches or on debate panels, but when they publish them in major campaign documents it's not very reassuring. If they can't work out simple percentages, or don't have the wherewithal to proof read and fact check their own campaign material, it makes you wonder how the hell they'll manage to run the country. :shock:
 
Tories get their sums wrong in attack on teen pregnancy | Politics | The Guardian



Only problem is...



Wups.

And it is not the only time this has happened recently.



This does not help on the credibility issue with the Tories.

Add to the fact that 56% of Brits see Cameron as "a slick salesman, but I worry about what he is like underneath"

More than half of voters have doubts about 'slick' Cameron - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

Not exactly the best for a politician to be seen as, as it shows a clear lack of trust that he means what he says.

I'm just hoping people realise before they vote them in.
 
-- the only hope here is long-term...or at least according to Peter Hitchens, the only way there can be a true conservative party is if the conservatives lose.

Well the true conservative party and any other version we might like to imagine has been losing elections since 1997. I wonder what Hitchens really wants if 3 election losses so far still hasn't brought about the change he personally wants to see...
 
Well the true conservative party and any other version we might like to imagine has been losing elections since 1997. I wonder what Hitchens really wants if 3 election losses so far still hasn't brought about the change he personally wants to see...

Sorry? The "other" conservative party has been in power since 1997. The Tories might have got some figures wrong, bless 'em, what can you expect? They went to Eton. Nontheless, they are 100% right when they point out that social inequality has increased under New Labour.

What has New Labour done that you could describe as economically progressive? What have they done to make the UK a more equal, just and fair society?

I'll give you a hand and then you continue the list:
  1. Invested in the NHS
  2. Invested in Education (but still introduced tuition fees)
  3. Implemented devolution in Scotland and Wales (NI work in progress)
  4. Repealed Section 28 and introduced civil partnerships

And that's taken them 13 years! To paraphrase the odious Hitchens, the only way the UK will get a true socialist government is if Labour loses.
 
lol, the Tories can't do basic math! Gotta love it!
 
I'll give you a hand and then you continue the list:
  1. Invested in the NHS
  2. Invested in Education (but still introduced tuition fees)
  3. Implemented devolution in Scotland and Wales (NI work in progress)
  4. Repealed Section 28 and introduced civil partnerships

And that's taken them 13 years!

And Labour isn't very impressive with that. Pouring money into the NHS is no good without reform, as hospitals still close, fight to stay staffed and organised and look set to dump the multi-billion Pound database system which doctors always said wasn't much cop for their needs. Labour are PC-foisting failures, once more of the computing kind. Lucky they never managed to carry out their 1997 election threat of putting a computer on every schoolchild's desk!

Despite the grades thresholds lowered and the continuous assessments knocking the pass rates higher, university people and employers often complain that young adults often lack basic literacy and good heads for figures. And then when Tony Blair tried in his own way to improve educational standards with academy schools, many Labour MPs, often representing the worst-performing constituencies academically, rebelled hard. On top of that there's the effect of revolting 'liberal' dogma, for example kids being taught about evil fat cat-capitalists destroying the rainforests in Geography. I saw that, and a scrawl of a 'fat cat' with huge Dollar signs on his cheeks, when I once flipped through my younger brother's school book a few years back.

Wales and Scoland got devolution, but there's still the West Lothian Question and no EU referenda. Labour always did listen to the people only if it suited their book.

Gays are what they are and that's no reason to persecute them. But on the other side of the coin I'm deeply uncomfortable when that's wielded as an agenda and kids are involved in any way. It's pushed as an entire syllabus or equal to the productive norm of heterosexuality at school, crowding a syllabus which will now see some subjects like geography or history amalgamated into 'summary' subjects to save space. Kids have enough to try and learn without being made to read 'King and King' as well. (Presumably Johnathan King will come later). Adults can turn round and say 'I'm not interested' if they're not, but kids can't, so it should be left alone at school.
 
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I watch him on PMQ's, is there any difference between him and tony blair?

Tony Blair's Prime Ministry wasnt a terrible failure. He was a relative success but fell short when he made a huge commitment to Iraq, something that was against British public policy in the Middle East.
Cameron is loudly opposing Browns policies and that appeals to the British public because quiet simply we are sick of Gordon.
I think we are about to experience another Obama type scenario, when we vote him in just because he has a different tone, for the sake of having a different tone, without listening to that tone to begin with.

He's pretty much the stereotype for the British Tories; a posh twat who wants to give tax cuts to the rich.

Will Cameron be much different to Labour?
Anything is better than labour. But the answer is no.
We dont have much choice but to vote in pro-fiscal conservatives anyway, we are in desperate need of it right now.

I havent heard any talk about tax cuts for the rich though.
 
Tony Blair's Prime Ministry wasnt a terrible failure. He was a relative success but fell short when he made a huge commitment to Iraq, something that was against British public policy in the Middle East.
Cameron is loudly opposing Browns policies and that appeals to the British public because quiet simply we are sick of Gordon.
I think we are about to experience another Obama type scenario, when we vote him in just because he has a different tone, for the sake of having a different tone, without listening to that tone to begin with.



Will Cameron be much different to Labour?
Anything is better than labour. But the answer is no.
We dont have much choice but to vote in pro-fiscal conservatives anyway, we are in desperate need of it right now.

I havent heard any talk about tax cuts for the rich though.

I think the real point is that there is hardly anything to choose between the two main parties. Whether the Tories (most likely) get in or Labour performs some kind of electoral Lazarus trick, they will both:
  • Cut public spending
  • Increase taxation
  • Fail to reduce the gap between rich and poor
  • Kow-tow to a US-driven foreign policy agenda
  • Remain hostile to the EU
  • Fail to properly regulate the financial sector
  • Continue to allow unfettered hostile foreign take-overs of British companies
  • Pander to xenophobic, anti-immigrant lobby
  • Continue political meddling in the work of health, education, judicial, media and social work professionals
The best possible outcome of the next election would be a hung parliament followed by electoral reform. Fingers crossed.
 
The best possible outcome of the next election would be a hung parliament followed by electoral reform. Fingers crossed.

what sort of electrical reform are you after?
 
what sort of electrical reform are you after?
Ideally STV based on multi-member constituencies (3 members per constituency - enough to ensure smaller partes get representation, not so many that constituents can't still have direct access to their local MP).

The more likely outcome would be single-member constituencies with Alternative Vote system. Not ideal but 100% better than FPTP.

What's your take on it?
 
Ideally STV based on multi-member constituencies (3 members per constituency - enough to ensure smaller partes get representation, not so many that constituents can't still have direct access to their local MP).

The more likely outcome would be single-member constituencies with Alternative Vote system. Not ideal but 100% better than FPTP.

What's your take on it?

I know precious little about voting systems. I had thought proportional representation might be all right until the European Elections.

I would prefer Labour to get in because regardless of how right wing they have become, I know it will be worse for with the Conservatives. Which voting system would help Labour?

In reality if everyone could be bothered to vote, then we would at least be aware we are in some way represented, which then raises the question how much can a government do for us anyway with Global economies.

P.S. I understood both conservatives and Labour were in favour of the EU regardless of what the Conservatives may say.

Politics is not what is was ;)
 
I know precious little about voting systems. I had thought proportional representation might be all right until the European Elections.

I would prefer Labour to get in because regardless of how right wing they have become, I know it will be worse for with the Conservatives. Which voting system would help Labour?

In reality if everyone could be bothered to vote, then we would at least be aware we are in some way represented, which then raises the question how much can a government do for us anyway with Global economies.

P.S. I understood both conservatives and Labour were in favour of the EU regardless of what the Conservatives may say.

Politics is not what is was ;)

No form of PR really favours the 2 biggest parties. It fours the smaller parties. Given that the current Big2 have had a pass-the-parcel party for 65 years, I'm inclined to say that both are bloated on their own importance and forcing them to have to compromise on power (not just on policy) would be a good thing. Having Liberals and Greens holding them to account on their craven submission to big business can't be bad.

Forced to choose between Tweedle-Dum (Tories) or Tweedle-Dee (New Labour), of course I'd go for the latter, but it's a pretty close, pretty unpalatable thing.
 
I think the real point is that there is hardly anything to choose between the two main parties. Whether the Tories (most likely) get in or Labour performs some kind of electoral Lazarus trick, they will both:
  • Cut public spending
  • Increase taxation
  • Fail to reduce the gap between rich and poor
  • Kow-tow to a US-driven foreign policy agenda
  • Remain hostile to the EU
  • Fail to properly regulate the financial sector
  • Continue to allow unfettered hostile foreign take-overs of British companies
  • Pander to xenophobic, anti-immigrant lobby
  • Continue political meddling in the work of health, education, judicial, media and social work professionals

Some of these interest me too. For example, there's nothing wrong in cutting public spending if you can get it through to the likes of civil servants to budget properly and pay for only the needed. Things like bobbies on the beat and nurses, whilst things like dustbin inspectors or brick walls just for vandals to spraypaint on can be ditched. (I'm not even talking 'art installation' either, though the NHS blowing millions on stones and daubs does waste more.) That politicians were the ones to implement such rubbish in the first place is a good reason to put things right.

Taxation doesn't need to be raised as often if it's spent wisely. It's almost the oldest profession to gather public money and spend as much as possible to prevent having your budgets cut.

There's no way to close the gap between rich and poor, unless you punish rich people for having made something of themselves by taking away from them more money than Wilson took from the Beatles. That assumes that making money, by whatever means, is a criminal offence of a kind. We're not living in pre-1990 Eastern Europe you know. And as long as the poor are still better off than they were during the 60s or 70s, especially with more guaranteed benefits, that still reflects nicely even on New Labour.

It's not being very hostile to the EU to sign a parade of treaties and agreements feeding it more power transferred from your own centre of government. I'd hate to see the politicians' idea of love for it if they think they hate it.

I agree to an extent with this foreign companies taking over British companies complaint. The British Empire started the multi-national conglomorate thing in the spirit of free enterprise, so there's nothing really wrong with the idea of owning your own huge company. But there should have been at least some kind of line in the sand. Asset stripping and shedding thousands of jobs five minutes after taking on the workers is being just a bit too transient an interpretation of world market economics.

It depends on who individual 'anti-immigrants' are, but I don't think New Labour has particularly pandered. There's a real public feeling against the immigration scandal, with even many settled long-time immigrants saying they feel a pinch and that the older Britain they admired is disappearing.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/65404-lunatics-new-labour-state-4.html#post1058552128

Which examples of meddling in the judiciary, etc, are you thinking of? Is this a coded opposition to politicians even remotely trying to run things in line with a public consensus? (If so, it would only be bad insofar as politicians should set up a system to run properly in the first place, rather than set things how they want and control individual cases if PC runs too mad sometimes.)
 
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No form of PR really favours the 2 biggest parties. It fours the smaller parties. Given that the current Big2 have had a pass-the-parcel party for 65 years, I'm inclined to say that both are bloated on their own importance and forcing them to have to compromise on power (not just on policy) would be a good thing. Having Liberals and Greens holding them to account on their craven submission to big business can't be bad.

Forced to choose between Tweedle-Dum (Tories) or Tweedle-Dee (New Labour), of course I'd go for the latter, but it's a pretty close, pretty unpalatable thing.

There are only 3 Western countries still using the old First Past The Post system (FPTP): the UK, the US, and Canada. Shows you how popular it is these days. :roll:
 
No form of PR really favours the 2 biggest parties. It fours the smaller parties. Given that the current Big2 have had a pass-the-parcel party for 65 years, I'm inclined to say that both are bloated on their own importance and forcing them to have to compromise on power (not just on policy) would be a good thing. Having Liberals and Greens holding them to account on their craven submission to big business can't be bad.

Forced to choose between Tweedle-Dum (Tories) or Tweedle-Dee (New Labour), of course I'd go for the latter, but it's a pretty close, pretty unpalatable thing.

I think I am in agreement with you, There is no political party which excites me at all.

However, nor is there in waiting and I would need to say my concern would be that that the people picking up the votes would be Liberals yes, though I only really liked them when they had Charles Kennedy as leader, and after that, I suspect it will be UKIP and the BNP who will be getting extra votes. Seeing what a small percentage of the vote was needed in the European Elections for Griffin to get a seat, did not encourage me that that way was a way to get a more representative government. But heck, the Monster Raving Loonies have never had a seat anyway. ;)
 
Andalublue, i have to say you may be surprised with Cameron.
I dont want to make predictions just yet. We have to see how this plays out.

I agree with you however, British parties have nothing new to offer.
 
I think I am in agreement with you, There is no political party which excites me at all.

However, nor is there in waiting and I would need to say my concern would be that that the people picking up the votes would be Liberals yes, though I only really liked them when they had Charles Kennedy as leader, and after that, I suspect it will be UKIP and the BNP who will be getting extra votes. Seeing what a small percentage of the vote was needed in the European Elections for Griffin to get a seat, did not encourage me that that way was a way to get a more representative government. But heck, the Monster Raving Loonies have never had a seat anyway. ;)

It may well be that the UKIP Raving Loonies or the British Nazi Party win votes, even seats. So be it. These two are so intellectually challenged that they would show in Westminster what they have shown in Strasbourg and in council's around the country that they are ineffectual, corrupt and worthless. Give them rope and they ALWAYS hang themselves.

Re: the Libs, I quite like Vince Cable and a couple of others. They seem to have some principles; I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt over those we know to be unprincipled.

Kaya, I may be surprised about Cameron how? For good or ill? As the product of socialist comprehensive education policy, I would never pin my hopes on a party that has never done anything to improve the lot of the poor at the expense of their privileged core supporters.
 
The legacy of England,there hands are steeped in Scottish blood

we shall never forget,thank to the values of It is in that respect that the great alchemist, Thomas Jefferson, and his peers - George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and many others - are the true fathers of the United States of America...

thank you Thomas Jefferson


President of the United States of America.

god bless them.

mikeey
 
The legacy of England,there hands are steeped in Scottish blood

we shall never forget,thank to the values of It is in that respect that the great alchemist, Thomas Jefferson, and his peers - George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and many others - are the true fathers of the United States of America...

thank you Thomas Jefferson


President of the United States of America.

god bless them.

mikeey

Are you a bit drunk. Mikeey?
 
Are you a bit drunk. Mikeey?

Everybody who has been here for a while can tell you its normal.
Mikey is a scotsman who wishes Scotland become an American state rather than an English one.
He hates Englisk folk and wants us to stuff the EU.

His also a nice lad with a big heart and a knack for spelling. :)
 

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