An interesting article on Cyberwarfare from Lawfare

[jmotivator]

https://www.lawfareblog.com/uncomfo...mps-press-conference-putin?platform=hootsuite

Jack Goldsmith makes some very important points about the nature of the modern cyber war that is being waged. For most it is an invisible fight because most of the attacks are not against civilian targets, and the responses are not usually in a court of law. Moving the war into the courtroom will change the war considerably given the fact that the US has so many cyber warfare assets around the globe.

It is fine to excuse US cyber attacks on foreign countries on the grounds that the US is on the side of good, I get that. The thing is, other countries don't share our views, and the coming reciprocal response will likely break the long standing punch-counterpunch paradigm of trading cyber attacks... indeed, the reason the US performs so many foreign cyber attacks is that they are by far the biggest target of cyber attacks.. and reciprocal strikes count the same as initial attacks on the score sheet.

As I have pointed to numerous times, I think in the long run the choice to politicize the attacks rather than quietly retaliate has hurt our ability to fight the cyber war and has essentially scored an own-goal in the long running US/Russia propaganda war.

 

[jnug]

https://www.lawfareblog.com/uncomfo...mps-press-conference-putin?platform=hootsuite

Jack Goldsmith makes some very important points about the nature of the modern cyber war that is being waged. For most it is an invisible fight because most of the attacks are not against civilian targets, and the responses are not usually in a court of law. Moving the war into the courtroom will change the war considerably given the fact that the US has so many cyber warfare assets around the globe.

It is fine to excuse US cyber attacks on foreign countries on the grounds that the US is on the side of good, I get that. The thing is, other countries don't share our views, and the coming reciprocal response will likely break the long standing punch-counterpunch paradigm of trading cyber attacks... indeed, the reason the US performs so many foreign cyber attacks is that they are by far the biggest target of cyber attacks.. and reciprocal strikes count the same as initial attacks on the score sheet.

As I have pointed to numerous times, I think in the long run the choice to politicize the attacks rather than quietly retaliate has hurt our ability to fight the cyber war and has essentially scored an own-goal in the long running US/Russia propaganda war.

Well when Russia has an economy that matters we can start to worry about whether we are winning or losing some propaganda war. But if we are, Trump is to blame for that for crawling on his belly to Putin and for legitimizing KJU.

 

[jmotivator]

Well when Russia has an economy that matters we can start to worry about whether we are winning or losing some propaganda war. But if we are, Trump is to blame for that for crawling on his belly to Putin and for legitimizing KJU.

*sigh* Read that whole article in 2 minutes, eh?

And no, Increasing NATO spending, pushing to stop Russian fossil fuels in Europe, standing strong against Russian allies in Syria and Iran, and increasing sanctions of Russian oligarchs is not crawling on your belly. I swear, Putin must watch the anti-Trump hysteria and laugh himself to sleep... it's the best free propaganda he could hope for.

 

[iliveonramen]

https://www.lawfareblog.com/uncomfo...mps-press-conference-putin?platform=hootsuite

Jack Goldsmith makes some very important points about the nature of the modern cyber war that is being waged. For most it is an invisible fight because most of the attacks are not against civilian targets, and the responses are not usually in a court of law. Moving the war into the courtroom will change the war considerably given the fact that the US has so many cyber warfare assets around the globe.

It is fine to excuse US cyber attacks on foreign countries on the grounds that the US is on the side of good, I get that. The thing is, other countries don't share our views, and the coming reciprocal response will likely break the long standing punch-counterpunch paradigm of trading cyber attacks... indeed, the reason the US performs so many foreign cyber attacks is that they are by far the biggest target of cyber attacks.. and reciprocal strikes count the same as initial attacks on the score sheet.

As I have pointed to numerous times, I think in the long run the choice to politicize the attacks rather than quietly retaliate has hurt our ability to fight the cyber war and has essentially scored an own-goal in the long running US/Russia propaganda war.

Meddling in an election is different than the normal back and forth cyber attacks.

 

[jnug]

*sigh* Read that whole article in 2 minutes, eh?

And no, Increasing NATO spending, pushing to stop Russian fossil fuels in Europe, standing strong against Russian allies in Syria and Iran, and increasing sanctions of Russian oligarchs is not crawling on your belly. I swear, Putin must watch the anti-Trump hysteria and laugh himself to sleep... it's the best free propaganda he could hope for.

Hey I was just responding to the Propaganda comment. It was your comment. Maybe you wanted to comment on something else. In fact I very much suspect you did.

 

[Xelor]

I'm not sure what the OP-er is talking about. I'm not because the nature and purposes of cyber warfare are identical to those of espionage and infiltration initiatives from before the computer age.

Such operations are neither more nor less "politicized" than they've ever been. Nothing's more political than those things which the most politically charged body in the U.S., the U.S. Congress, ponders and that body has pondered and passed all sorts of espionage provisions, one being called the Espionage Act of 1917. Some acts of espionage, subterfuge, succor and infiltration rise to the level of inciting war, which, regardless of what other contexts wars may have, is nothing if not political.

So with the above as a context for considering the nature of espionage and whatnot, I don't see that there is any newfound height of politicization of clandestine infiltration as a result of that activity's evolution to an electronic and digital modality.

 

[jmotivator]

Meddling in an election is different than the normal back and forth cyber attacks.

No it isn't. In fact it is the least of your worries, or should be. Those kind of attacks depend on making a case for a position they want you to hold, requiring a conscious decision on your part for the attack to be effective. The attacks you should worry about more are the attacks against infrastructure, and data mining that can cause real and immediate harm to you, your livelihood, and public safety and requires no action from you.

 

[KevinKohler]

Meddling in an election is different than the normal back and forth cyber attacks.

Russian meddling so far, has been nothing more than what our own media does.

Meanwhile, the Ashly Madison hack caused senators to step down, involves US servicemen, and has resulted in more than a few suicides.


But by all means...make it political, lol.

 

[MrWonka]

the reason the US performs so many foreign cyberattacks is that they are by far the biggest target of cyber attacks.. and reciprocal strikes count the same as initial attacks on the score sheet.

The fact that you view this as a game with a score is disturbing. You believe America is justified in their cyber attacks because other countries attack us, but they believe they're justified in their attacks because America attacks them. It's called escalation. If you think you're going to convince other countries to stop attacking us, by attacking them more then you are ****ing delusional.

 

[jmotivator]

I'm not sure what the OP-er is talking about. I'm not because the nature and purposes of cyber warfare are identical to those of espionage and infiltration initiatives from before the computer age.

The purpose is the same, but the nature most definitely is not. A Roman legion and a Panzer division had the same purpose, but the nature of the war they waged was very different.

Such operations are neither more nor less "politicized" than they've ever been. Nothing's more political than those things which the most politically charged body in the U.S., the U.S. Congress, ponders and that body has pondered and passed all sorts of espionage provisions, one being called the Espionage Act of 1917. Some acts of espionage, subterfuge, succor and infiltration rise to the level of inciting war, which, regardless of what other contexts wars may have, is nothing if not political.

If we allow a war to begin over an act that had no effect on the election in question then we are even more foolish than those politicians in the lead up to World War I... You literally want to talk war crimes over political ads on Facebook and Instagram? :roll:

And if the hacking of the DNC and DCCC email servers had ANY effect whatsoever on the population it would be the average Bernie supporter whose mind was changed, not the Trump voter, and it would be the revelation of uncomfortable truths, rather than brainwashing or propaganda.

So with the above as a context for considering the nature of espionage and whatnot, I don't see that there is any newfound height of politicization of clandestine infiltration activity as a result of that activity's evolution to obtain an electronic and digital modality.

I didn't say "newfound height", it is more like the way McCarthyism made it harder to fight against Soviet espionage.

 

[Xelor]

The purpose is the same, but the nature most definitely is not. A Roman legion and a Panzer division had the same purpose, but the nature of the war they waged was very different.



If we allow a war to begin over an act that had no effect on the election in question then we are even more foolish than those politicians in the lead up to World War I... You literally want to talk war crimes over political ads on Facebook and Instagram? :roll:

And if the hacking of the DNC and DCCC email servers had ANY effect whatsoever on the population it would be the average Bernie supporter whose mind was changed, not the Trump voter, and it would be the revelation of uncomfortable truths, rather than brainwashing or propaganda.



I didn't say "newfound height", it is more like the way McCarthyism made it harder to fight against Soviet espionage.

Red:
??? Are you truly that literal?....Whatever.....

Our jurisprudential system acknowledges that certain acts, even when ineffectual, merit a punitive response. That's why criminal conspiracy, even if the conspirators' ends are not met, is punishable. It's why attempted murder or assault is criminal.

Blue:
Wow! You say to me you didn't say "newfound height" and then illustrate what you meant by citing an example of a phenomenon/mindset that was itself a newfound height, of paranoia rather than politicization, but nonetheless new at the time.

 

[Xelor]

The purpose is the same, but the nature most definitely is not. A Roman legion and a Panzer division had the same purpose, but the nature of the war they waged was very different.



If we allow a war to begin over an act that had no effect on the election in question then we are even more foolish than those politicians in the lead up to World War I... You literally want to talk war crimes over political ads on Facebook and Instagram? :roll:

And if the hacking of the DNC and DCCC email servers had ANY effect whatsoever on the population it would be the average Bernie supporter whose mind was changed, not the Trump voter, and it would be the revelation of uncomfortable truths, rather than brainwashing or propaganda.



I didn't say "newfound height", it is more like the way McCarthyism made it harder to fight against Soviet espionage.

Red:
Yep, it wouldn't be Trumpkins.....

 

[bubbabgone]

...
I didn't say "newfound height", it is more like the way McCarthyism made it harder to fight against Soviet espionage.

That statement made me think of the artificial overwrought state of the Left and their media now (and previously) and how it'll make it that much harder to be taken seriously if there comes a time they should be.

 

[late]

The courts occasionally gets sucked into power vacuums.

That's what happened with abortion, if Congress did it's job, we could put this behind us.

 

[jmotivator]

That statement made me think of the artificial overwrought state of the Left and their media now (and previously) and how it'll make it that much harder to be taken seriously if there comes a time they should be.

We teach children fairy tales because they carry valuable life lessons.

 

[jmotivator]

Red:
Yep, it wouldn't be Trumpkins.....

Right, so the issue that you are upset about is what... that the Russians may have exposed Bernie supporters to too much truth?

 

[jmotivator]

The fact that you view this as a game with a score is disturbing. You believe America is justified in their cyber attacks because other countries attack us, but they believe they're justified in their attacks because America attacks them. It's called escalation. If you think you're going to convince other countries to stop attacking us, by attacking them more then you are ****ing delusional.

*sigh* And there are even leader boards where you can rank countries by the number of cyber attacks the launch worldwide.

But yeah, ignore what I actually said and pick a cherry... :roll:

 

[Xelor]

Red:
Yep, it wouldn't be Trumpkins.....

Right, so the issue that you are upset about is what... that the Russians may have exposed Bernie supporters to too much truth?

??? What? What about my remark indicates to you anything having to do with upset?

 

[iliveonramen]

Russian meddling so far, has been nothing more than what our own media does.

You do understand the difference between Americans participating in the conversations discussed in an election compared to a foreign entity? It's not exactly a controversial take that our media...no matter your twisted and simplistic take on them...are actually Americans and have every right to participate in the democratic process.

Meanwhile, the Ashly Madison hack caused senators to step down, involves US servicemen, and has resulted in more than a few suicides.

That's unfortunate. Influencing an election is a bigger deal. It should be pretty obvious...

But by all means...make it political, lol.

The idea that influencing an election is a big deal for a Democracy shouldn't be political. Your the one that's defensive about a factual statement I made. Your the one politicizing something that is obvious to practically everyone.