America Will Never Be A Socialist Country

[Good4Nothin]

The President announced in his State of the Union speech last night that America will never be a Socialist country. That was well said as long as one differentiates between the text book definition of Socialism and the Fox News definition of Socialism.
It is not Socialist to give your working class four weeks of vacation by law. Every country in Europe does this. That doesn't include legal holidays.
It is not Socialist to give your working class sick leave by law. Europe does this.
It is not Socialist to give employees paid family leave. Europe does this.

It appears that Fox News gets to define Socialism as anything that would make employee lives better at a cost.
Europe has many political parties and one of them is Social Democrats. Social Democrats are what our Democratic party was before the lobbyists corrupted them.

Trump said, in the speech, that he will give paid family leave. Obviously he doesn't think paid family leave is socialist.

 

[Good4Nothin]

It’s socialist for farmers who were handed $12B farm bailouts

And almost everyone thinks that's wrong.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I might agree with you if I didn't believe that for trickle down to work it needs to be legislated.

Everything needs to be legislated. Only a lunatic would think laws aren't needed.

 

[Dutch]

In the USA only the rich have socialism.

In Venezuela pretty much everybody except the "leader" have socialism.

 

[tres borrachos]

You asked a question...I answered it.

Don't get triggered by the mention of AOC, eh?

You're lying. This was my post that you quoted and responded to with your AOC comment. There is no question in there. It triggered you to post "AOC" because she owns most of the space in your head.

"Socialism" has become this month's "Caravans". A word being bandied around to scare people. It's dumb. As dumb as when everyone was positively convinced that Obama was going to take everyone's guns away - and for the record, I was guilty of that, too. It never happened. Just like Sarah Palin's death panels never happened.

 

[Good4Nothin]

All the more evidence that no one knows what socialism really means, but the term is sure going to be used to frighten people.

Not only does no one know what "socialism" really means, no one knows that they don't know. They don't even stop for one second to think about what it might mean, or look it up.

To know the meaning of any word, you have to consider the word's history and how it evolved. No one tries to find out. I don't literally mean "no one," but it might as well be no one. You never hear politicians or journalists trying to be clear about what it means.

Bernie Sanders did a lot to help people get even more confused, by calling himself a socialist.

 

[manofknowledge]

???

I said nothing about anyone using the term "socialism" as a scare tactic.

Tell you what...go back and reread my posts. Then get back to me.

Perhaps you should reread your posts.

"Socialism" has become this month's "Caravans". A word being bandied around to scare people. It's dumb. As dumb as when everyone was positively convinced that Obama was going to take everyone's guns away - and for the record, I was guilty of that, too. It never happened. Just like Sarah Palin's death panels never happened.

You can thank AOC and her socialist friends for that...as well as the media who splash her nonsense all over the multimedia echo chamber.

 

[Hadrian]

Legislating economics is if not socialism, certainly a giant step towards that goal.

Trickle down is nonexistent. The tax cut signed early last year was sold by republicans as something that would have a direct positive effect on corporate employees. Instead most of the time it was used to buy back stock. I reiterate trickle down is nonexistent if it is not legislated. Minimum wage raises and significant rises in the threshold where people must be compensated for overtime are excellent examples of the trickle down theory. In fact rewarding the people who are making those at the top very rich is trickle down at its best.

Do you know what really was Socialism? The temporary ownership of GM and several other companies in the bail out of 2008. In fact Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson admitted that the Keynesian solution went against everything that he believed. Had he pulled a Hoover in that situation, it would have been very bad.

 

[sangha]

Paragraph 2 of the following web site talks of the optimal Debt to GDP ratio: https://voxeu.org/debates/commentaries/there-optimal-debt-gdp-ratio
Developed nations should be at 60% according to the web site. We have passed 100% and climbing. What troubles me about that is what payment on the debt would look like if we returned to the interest rates of the early eighties.

No, that article does not say that debt should be at 60 of gdp

 

[notquiteright]

The more the government controls producers (job creators), the closer you are to socialism. That does not make all socialist policies evil, but it's hard to draw the line on something creeping in.I would hate to see us take some tips from Europe and *shudder* end up being like them as a whole. Not all their ideas are bad, but the whole of the place is not somewhere we want to end up falling to.

Not really. Nixon had price controls, did you miss the massive deconstruction of Nixon's gubmint regulations under both Carter and Reagan???? Dictators, oligarchies, turn of the century governments fixed prices, gold standards and rates of exchange- gubmint controls ain't just socialist...

Seems only conservatives fear drawing the line- it was the battle cry against same sex marriage-''if we allow 'the gays' to marry soon men will marry farm animals!!!!" (I was a bit put off these guardians of marriage didn't consider women might marry farm animals as well... :roll: )

Just so I have a baseline- even live as in for years in any *shudder* European nation???? Just what causes you to shudder so???? eace

 

[Xelor]

If by "socialist," one means what Marx had in mind, that is, as an efficacious/pragmatic waypoint on the path toward communism, I agree.

 

[Port & Starboard]

The President announced in his State of the Union speech last night that America will never be a Socialist country. That was well said as long as one differentiates between the text book definition of Socialism and the Fox News definition of Socialism.
It is not Socialist to give your working class four weeks of vacation by law. Every country in Europe does this. That doesn't include legal holidays.
It is not Socialist to give your working class sick leave by law. Europe does this.
It is not Socialist to give employees paid family leave. Europe does this.

It appears that Fox News gets to define Socialism as anything that would make employee lives better at a cost.
Europe has many political parties and one of them is Social Democrats. Social Democrats are what our Democratic party was before the lobbyists corrupted them.

Move to Europe.

 

[ElChupacabra]

All the more evidence that no one knows what socialism really means, but the term is sure going to be used to frighten people.

Even worse that they don't understand that many economies are mixed. Socialism has become the new Red Scare.

 

[ElChupacabra]

If by "socialist," one means what Marx had in mind, that is, as an efficacious/pragmatic waypoint on the path toward communism, I agree.

I don't think it's even that nuanced. The word has become a dog whistle for "they're coming for all of your stuff".

 

[Good4Nothin]

If by "socialist," one means what Marx had in mind, that is, as an efficacious/pragmatic waypoint on the path toward communism, I agree.

Sure. That will happen. The happy path to heaven on earth.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The President announced in his State of the Union speech last night that America will never be a Socialist country. That was well said as long as one differentiates between the text book definition of Socialism and the Fox News definition of Socialism.
It is not Socialist to give your working class four weeks of vacation by law. Every country in Europe does this. That doesn't include legal holidays.

Yes it is, it is a violation of the property rights of the employer. The countries in Europe that do this have low employment mobility and high unemployment rates, and really high taxes, see the protests in France

It is not Socialist to give your working class sick leave by law. Europe does this.

No employer may force you to work while sick in the US.

It is not Socialist to give employees paid family leave. Europe does this.

Yes it is, it is a violation of the property rights of the employer by forcing them to pay compensation that the market doesn't command. again, employment mobility, taxes, cost of living, etc are all much worse for European workers then American ones. Also unemployment is higher.

It appears that Fox News gets to define Socialism as anything that would make employee lives better at a cost.
Europe has many political parties and one of them is Social Democrats. Social Democrats are what our Democratic party was before the lobbyists corrupted them.

European socialism does not make the lives of employees better. They would likely be much better off if their governments lowered taxes and eliminated these social programs.

If we take the French tax rates for example my income adjusted for dollars from Euros is 52,979 which I would pay after income tax and social charges over 15K Euros on. That's not counting fuel taxes, VAT, high prices, lower chance of finding job, etc.

My US Salary of 60,000 dollars and the associated taxes, equals about 12K, dollars, which is 10K Euros. So I already save 5K Euros and I already have holiday pay and two weeks of PTO my employer offers, so I'm paying 2500 Euros a week in taxes and in exchange I get leave which I would've been paid 1250 a week for. So actually your socialism is only a tool for fools who can't budget and I lose under your system, It gets worse if my pay goes up, my pay only has to go up 10K to enter a 40% tax bracket. plus in France owning a car is too expensive and many products I buy would have VAT. what will I do with 4 weeks vacation if I can't afford to drive somewhere for it?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

we lag pretty far behind. our health care is horrendously overpriced, and even having access to it largely depends on where you live and work. our average vacation benefits suck compared to pretty much everyone else in the first world, and we rank low on pretty much every first world quality of life index. fixing that isn't socialism. seizing the means of production and giving it to the workers is real socialism. i don't support doing that.

America has access to health care and outcomes far above the rest of the world.

if your vacation benefits suck can I suggest getting a job with an employer that provides the benefits you want? or you can quit and all your time will be vacation. I never understand why people gripe so much about these kinds of things, you're not a slave you can go somewhere else.

The quality of life indexes are purely political inventions made to justify atheist socialism. Americans live in bigger houses, own cars, eat more food, and have more goods then all of the rest of the first world, if they're not happy it's their fault. Quality of life in the US is very good and there's nothing inherently superior about the lifestyles in Europe, most European middle class people live a standard of living less then American poor because of high taxes on their wages.

 

[Xelor]

I don't think it's even that nuanced. The word has become a dog whistle for "they're coming for all of your stuff".

Off-topic:
Lord, but "dog whistlers" gall me. How the hell do people find time and energy for all that subterfuge? I damn sure don't have either.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Off-topic:
Lord, but "dog whistlers" gall me. How the hell do people find time and energy for all that subterfuge? I damn sure don't have either.

The devil will find work for idle hands to do....

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I don't think it's even that nuanced. The word has become a dog whistle for "they're coming for all of your stuff".

It's not a dog whistle, It's a bullhorn, We want everyone to know they really ARE coming for your stuff and if you let them you'll pay 6 dollars a liter for fuel and 20% VAT and over half of your 50K income like they do in Europe.

 

[ElChupacabra]

It's not a dog whistle, It's a bullhorn, We want everyone to know they really ARE coming for your stuff and if you let them you'll pay 6 dollars a liter for fuel and 20% VAT and over half of your 50K income like they do in Europe.

Who is specifically pushing that agenda?

 

[Helix]

America has access to health care and outcomes far above the rest of the world.

if your vacation benefits suck can I suggest getting a job with an employer that provides the benefits you want? or you can quit and all your time will be vacation. I never understand why people gripe so much about these kinds of things, you're not a slave you can go somewhere else.

they like to pretend that we're all independent contractors here. i've considered moving away from my red state, but with aging parents and our entire support structure here, that's impossible. instead, i'll be voting against anti-labor right wingers and encouraging as many people as possible to do the same.

The quality of life indexes are purely political inventions made to justify atheist socialism. Americans live in bigger houses, own cars, eat more food, and have more goods then all of the rest of the first world, if they're not happy it's their fault. Quality of life in the US is very good and there's nothing inherently superior about the lifestyles in Europe, most European middle class people live a standard of living less then American poor because of high taxes on their wages.

here's a good quality of life index for you to deflect.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-rankings

 

[Xelor]

The devil will find work for idle hands to do....

I'm not so sure the Devil has a thing to do with it...Devil or no devil, the point is valid.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

So? More people in the US make bad health decisions and they have the freedom to do so. I have no desire to control people's decisions. So not my problem.

they like to pretend that we're all independent contractors here. i've considered moving away from my red state, but with aging parents and our entire support structure here, that's impossible. instead, i'll be voting against anti-labor right wingers and encouraging as many people as possible to do the same.

They're not pretending anything, they treat you like a contractor and you accept the salary. I've done independent contractor work before and loved it. You apparently just love to female dog and demand the government seize me of my labor rights to work indepedently.

here's a good quality of life index for you to deflect.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-rankings

Politically invented narrative of meaningless things, it even says right in the description it is isn't counting material well being or property rights.

 

[Helix]

So? More people in the US make bad health decisions and they have the freedom to do so. I have no desire to control people's decisions. So not my problem.

dodge.

They're not pretending anything, they treat you like a contractor and you accept the salary. I've done independent contractor work before and loved it. You apparently just love to female dog and demand the government seize me of my labor rights to work indepedently.

i prefer to be treated like an employee.

Politically invented narrative of meaningless things, it even says right in the description it is isn't counting material well being or property rights.

false.