After Bruno Mars is accused of cultural appropriation, black celebrities come to his defense

[roguenuke]

Dang! I had two firsts today. I agreed with OpportunityCost. Now I'm agreeing with you. I must be losing my mind or growing soft.

Seriously, though, people who know Hawai'i better than a honeymoon or a weeklong tanning trip understand that it is one of the most culturally diverse places on the planet. Musical influences from every corner of the world have not only created a unique, syncopated local music genre that is unique to the islands but have also encouraged crossover and collaborations between just about any musical style you can name. The racial ambiguities in Hawai'i are also incomprehensible to anyone who has never lived there.

Mars did not appropriate any culture. He's celebrating and expressing his own.

My husband and I met at Nashville Waikiki. They have pretty much every musical genre available somewhere on Oahu.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

That's not how Cecil describes it.

Cecil says he was the engineer at Media Sound, and was experimenting with synths (Moog 3C). Stevie Wonder approached him, as he'd heard Cecil's album, and wanted to check out the synths. After a bit of experimentation, Wonder laid down 17 tracks that weekend alone, occasionally doing things like using the Moog for a bass line.

Oh, and this was in 1971. By that point, Wonder was already moving away from Motown, with albums like "Signed" and "Where I'm Coming From." His contract with Motown expired right before he met Cecil.
Red Bull Music Academy Daily


Margouleff thinks he and Cecil didn't get the credit or the pay they deserve. But I haven't seen him say that "we pulled Stevie into a new direction." Rather, he said:

We needed Stevie because Stevie really reflected the times. He had an important message. I felt like his music making superseded the entertainment business. His music reflected the cry for civil rights, the urban black experience, and about who he was.... I thought he was a messenger. What he had to say was really important, and it's proven to be that way....

We generally operated autonomously. Most of the time recording studios had staff engineers. Well, with Stevie we were employees of Stevie's and not employees of the studio or the record company.....

Berry [Gordy] and Ewart [Abner] decided to move Motown from Detroit to Los Angeles. Steve still felt very close to those guys although his contract was in the air at that time. He finally decided to be his own person in every way, and we were the tools of that in many ways. We gave him his independence in the studio. We worked for him and not for Motown. We didn't get checks from Motown.
https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...er-making-stevie-wonders-talking-book/264182/

Now listen to the clip I posted, and listen to what Cecil says, because you're crediting Cecil with something Margouleff said. I'm friends with Malcolm and his son Milton, so this is not the first time I've heard him talk about Stevie Wonder. If I'm lucky I might even get him to say something to me directly, shall I ask him for you?

And yet, when I ask whether a rapper in blackface is fair game, you proclaim I'm being absurd. Which is it? Clearly you have limits, so what's fair game and what is not?

Take that back, or we're done. Don't you dare put words in my mouth.
I IGNORED your stupid comments about rappers in blackface for a reason.

I mean, you do know there are white supremacist musicians, right? Skrewdriver was one of the most prominent, they even had a song called "White Power." Is that OK with you, as long as it comes from their heart and soul?

lol

To be clear, I was NOT citing an actual example.

You're the only one laughing right now.

MUMBLE MUMBLE MUMBLE....snipped
completely different ball of wax.

I applaud you for trying so desperately to come up with examples of cultural appropriation.
I'm impressed by your efforts. What you came up with, on the other hand, is still a stretch because in the end, you're comparing Bruno Mars to a rapper in China who makes a living insulting Westerners.

Yeah, I think we're done here.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

So far, all I can gather from the "debate" is that

1. no one actually knows what "cultural appropriation" is; and

2. everyone should stop watching "Star Trek" because William Shatner is a Canadian who is "passing" as an American and that makes it "cultural appropriation";

I suppose that no one other than the Viennese should be allowed to play Strauss waltzes.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Incorrect. I'm not discussing plagiarism. At all.

Elvis didn't plagiarize "Hound Dog." Pat Boone didn't plagiarize "Tutti Frutti." The Stones didn't plagiarize "Carol." Clapton didn't plagiarize "Cross Road Blues" or "I Shot the Sheriff." The cast of Animal House didn't plagiarize "Louie, Louie." The overwhelming majority of the time, white artists who did (and still do) covers of black music gave proper credit and followed the law.

The problem is that white musicians that played black music became rich and famous, while their influences often languished in obscurity. Whether they realized it or not, those white artists leveraged their privilege and, as a result (and a long and incremental process), sidelined black musicians and artists.

Gee, I guess the key to it is to prevent artists from different races and cultures from performing outside their race. /sark
Visbek, your inner fascist is showing. You're a failed liberal.

White musicians became rich and famous because the music BUSINESS was just like every other aspect of business in America in those days...it was racist.
The answer is most definitely NOT to scream about cultural appropriation.
The answer is to make the business end of music more diverse and more responsive, while allowing artists to make art without fiending on political correctness.

So once again, shove all references to cultural appropriation right where the Sun don't shine, it's a meaningless whiny term created by failed liberals, and it makes real liberal look REALLY bad, because it makes liberals sound like fascists.

"The overwhelming majority of the time, white artists who did (and still do) covers of black music gave proper credit and followed the law."
Meanwhile, the executives who owned the labels often did not.
Nate Tarnapol took credit for the bulk of the Jackie Wilson catalog, and then assigned credit to his three month old son, Paul Tarnapol.

That's the REAL "cultural appropriation", only it's called THEFT.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

sigh

Is Kenny G in charge of Lincoln Center?

Does anyone think it'd be a good idea for Kenny G to perform Coltrane compositions like "Alabama" or "A Love Supreme"?

I did not say that "no one ever made watered-down jazz." I said that watered-down white jazz did not overwhelm the genre.



Good grief, make up your mind.

Yet again, jazz musicians spent about 6 years fusing jazz and rock before The Dan released their first album. I mean, really. What genre did they invent, and how did Wes Montgomery not beat them to the punch by over half a decade with "California Dreaming?"



:roll:

Surprise! You've got it completely backwards. I've played in bands, and have never written a single critical review.

What you fail to understand is that the "domination" is in the socio-cultural dynamics. It's not about those times when a few musicians get in a room, don't care about skin color, and jam. It's about broad systems of control, access to mainstream media, access to distribution mechanisms, access to financial resources, access to good producers and studios, and an audience that doesn't care about patronizing black performers because hey, those skinny white boys from the UK play the blues!

And while that isn't what I'm talking about, I have to point out that you are laughably wrong in your Kumbaya vision of music. Sure, there are times when musicians are in perfect sync. However, struggles for domination and control within a musical group are rampant. The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Fleetwood Mac (!) and dozens more had epic power struggles. James Brown ruled his band with an iron fist, frequently fining his band for missing notes on stage. And of course, Fagan and Becker tossed their original singer to assert power over their label, and then spent years domineering session musicians in order to get ridiculously perfect performances out of them.

I could literally be here all night discussing power struggles amongst musicians.



For your own sake, please stop banging those square pegs into the round holes.

This is not about plagiarism. It's not about racially segregating every single form of music. It's not about record labels ripping off artists (which happens regardless of race or ethnicity).

It's about white artists leveraging their privilege, often without realizing it. It's about white audiences who are thrilled to patronize white musicians who perform black music. It's about white critics fetishizing black musicians when they dare to play black music.

It's true that most people (*cough* whites) ignored these issues. That's not the case anymore. No one should be shocked to see music fans and activists manning the virtual ramparts of social media, and telling people not to jack their cultural heritage.

And it's not going to WORK, because as you can see, most of the music community agrees that cultural appropriation is a steaming pile of parrot droppings.
Most of the music community has come to Bruno Mars' defense, because despite your references to The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Fleetwood Mac (!) and their epic power struggles, musicians as a whole are artists first, and art is about tapping into a wide palette of cultural goods from everywhere and making new ideas out of a synthesis of new and old.

 

[roguenuke]

Incorrect. I'm not discussing plagiarism. At all.

Elvis didn't plagiarize "Hound Dog." Pat Boone didn't plagiarize "Tutti Frutti." The Stones didn't plagiarize "Carol." Clapton didn't plagiarize "Cross Road Blues" or "I Shot the Sheriff." The cast of Animal House didn't plagiarize "Louie, Louie." The overwhelming majority of the time, white artists who did (and still do) covers of black music gave proper credit and followed the law.

The problem is that white musicians that played black music became rich and famous, while their influences often languished in obscurity. Whether they realized it or not, those white artists leveraged their privilege and, as a result (and a long and incremental process), sidelined black musicians and artists.

Part of just living in that time. Unfortunately, that happened a lot back then when people who weren't white were treated just plain badly, especially by people who wanted to make money off them.

It really is wrong to compare that to now. Heck, my own earlier mentioned song, I Swear, topped the Billboard Hot 100 for 11 weeks for All 4 One, but Montgomery's version only reached #42 on the same chart, months before A4O's version. Why? Because many people tend to like R&B music better than country (personally I prefer the twang).

How come Leann Rimes was able to make a hit off of "How Do I Live" while Trisha Yearwood's version didn't go nearly as high? Both are white female artists and Yearwood's should have gotten a bump at least from just being on the movie Con Air, but Rimes' version did far better. To me, it is more about different taste's in music, particularly now, than any sort of cultural appropriation.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Rookies need to stay in their lane. Virtuoso masters don't even need roads at all.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

PS: With regard to Red Bull Music Academy Daily:

Red Bull Music Academy Daily

Being the chief engineer of the studio, I’ve got the keys. The studio’s closed, it’s Memorial Day weekend. I go down there and it’s Stevie and I get introduced and basically he says he wants to see the synthesizer. I realise he doesn’t mean see literally, he means put his hands on it. The first thing he asks is, “Is it a keyboard instrument?” “Well, yes, sort of.” He wanted a clarification on “sort of.” I took him down into the studio and we opened up and I showed him the synthesizer, you know, put his hands on it and so on.

You can only play one note at a time, it’s like a saxophone or a trumpet. Of course, being a keyboard player, Stevie puts a whole fistful of notes down and says, “Oh, this doesn’t work, something’s broken.” “No, Stevie, it doesn’t work that way.” I tried to explain to him how it worked and he sort of got it.

Who here knows WHICH synthesizer Malcolm is describing at that moment?
He's NOT describing The Original New Timbrel Orchestra, also known as T.O.N.T.O., because TONTO was the first synthesizer in the world that COULD PLAY more than one note at a time.
TONTO was the world's very first POLYPHONIC synthesizer, and to play it, one usually needs the performer PLUS at least one or even two engineers/programmers.

Malcolm is describing the Moog synthesizer. Stevie Wonder didn't need Malcolm Cecil because he had a Moog...a lot of people had Moogs, ARPs, etc. My junior high school had a Moog.

What Malcolm and Margouleff had was TONTO.
And the signature synth riff you hear on "Livin For the City" is TONTO.
That hook line, the one that made that song famous, is TONTO in action.

 

[Visbek]

Now listen to the clip I posted, and listen to what Cecil says, because you're crediting Cecil with something Margouleff said.

Read what I posted. I'm quoting from both Cecil and Margouleff.

I'm friends with Malcolm and his son Milton, so this is not the first time I've heard him talk about Stevie Wonder. If I'm lucky I might even get him to say something to me directly, shall I ask him for you?

"Hey Milton, I'm arguing with some guy on the Internet. Can you tell me the real story of how Cecil and Wonder met? And make sure it contradicts what Cecil said in public."

Let's stick to public statements.

Take that back, or we're done. Don't you dare put words in my mouth.
I IGNORED your stupid comments about rappers in blackface for a reason.

There is nothing to "take back," and I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I'm asking whether you understand the consequences of your own statements.

It's very simple. You're explicitly saying that anyone can do anything, then you blow a gasket when I **ask** if rappers in blackface are acceptable.

Either you believe there are no limits (in which case blackface rappers ought to be acceptable), or there are limits which you refuse to define.

I applaud you for trying so desperately to come up with examples of cultural appropriation.
I'm impressed by your efforts. What you came up with, on the other hand, is still a stretch because in the end, you're comparing Bruno Mars to a rapper in China who makes a living insulting Westerners.

I never equated Mars with Fat Shady. I'm asking if you understand the consequences of your own statements.

Yeah, I think we're done here.

And yet, you continued to respond to my posts. How curious.

 

[Visbek]

Gee, I guess the key to it is to prevent artists from different races and cultures from performing outside their race. /sark
Visbek, your inner fascist is showing. You're a failed liberal.

sigh

No, you're just creating straw man arguments.

I never said "no one should ever cross racial/ethnic lines."

E.g. Mr Person asked me "what should the Rolling Stones have done different?" I can't think of anything. They credited original song writers when they did covers. They openly discussed their influences. They tried to raise Muddy Waters' profile. Keith Richards helped with Chuck Berry's 60th birthday. They developed their own musical style. I've never heard of them deliberately blocking any black artists.

And yet.... the fact remains that they benefited from their privilege. Despite some opposition in the press, the reality is that they had opportunities that were denied to black artists. They didn't create those conditions, but still benefited. And in the long run, it was an accumulation of dozens of white bands, most of whom acted the same way, who unfortunately sidelined black artists. (Not to mention some slightly odd quirks, like hiring black background singers, "Brown Sugar" etc)

I am pointing out:
- Cultural appropriation is complicated
- Given historical precedents (and not just in music), no one should be surprised that various gatekeepers push back against it

The answer is most definitely NOT to scream about cultural appropriation.
The answer is to make the business end of music more diverse and more responsive, while allowing artists to make art without fiending on political correctness.

Increasing diversity and recognizing cultural appropriation are NOT opposites.

An artist who plays music from a disadvantaged minority, but does nothing to reach out to that community, isn't increasing diversity. They're serving themselves.

An artist who plays music from a disadvantaged minority, and reaches out to that community, who works with musicians in that field, both increases diversity and respects that culture.

Raver kid wearing Indian headdress = cultural appropriation
Rolling Stones playing blues tunes = it's complicated
Vijay Iyer working with Marcus Gilmore = diversity

"The overwhelming majority of the time, white artists who did (and still do) covers of black music gave proper credit and followed the law."
Meanwhile, the executives who owned the labels often did not.

Yet another straw man. I guess you're just too busy presuming my positions, that you don't bother to read my explicitly stated positions.

So.... Yet again! Copyright infringement and/or plagiarism is not what I'm discussing. I'm talking about broader trends, that are both legal and culturally problematic.

Nate Tarnapol took credit for the bulk of the Jackie Wilson catalog, and then assigned credit to his three month old son, Paul Tarnapol.

That's the REAL "cultural appropriation", only it's called THEFT.

sigh

No, that's just theft. It is equally bad when a record exec refuses to give royalties to a white artist, a black artist, a mixed-race artist and so on. It has nothing to do with cultural appropriation -- a term that you don't seem to understand.

 

[Visbek]

And it's not going to WORK, because as you can see, most of the music community agrees that cultural appropriation is a steaming pile of parrot droppings.

Except... It doesn't.

Mars is a complicated case. Again... not black, may or may not be trying to pass, he has actually gotten caught ripping off other artists. Black artists pushing back on this one specific case does NOT mean that they universally reject the idea of cultural appropriation.

Meanwhile, back in the real world: Musicians are gatekeepers, too. E.g. Meshelle Ndgeocello called out Mars as being karaoke, not genuine, ripping off Bel Biv Devoe and so on. Musicians rip on other musicians all the time for being fake, for ripping people off, and nowadays, for cultural appropriation.

Who defended Elvis when Public Enemy trashed him?

Elvis was a hero to most
But he never meant **** to me you see
Straight up racist that sucker was
Simple and plain
Mother **** him and John Wayne

And yeah, much of the music world doesn't actually buy into your whole post-racial Kumbaya vibe:
Music?s 8 Most Cringe-Worthy Acts Of Cultural Appropriation In 2014 | The FADER
https://www.colorlines.com/articles/trouble-justin-timberlakes-appropriation-black-music
https://mic.com/articles/107012/hip...-up-and-she-completely-deserves-it#.ilYKO0qMv
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/nicki-minaj-miley-cyrus-cultural-appropriation
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...op-dystopia/tJgbK5ayMmSUkyjfqHBRGN/story.html
Two words: Post Malone

Most of the music community has come to Bruno Mars' defense, because despite your references to The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Fleetwood Mac (!) and their epic power struggles, musicians as a whole are artists first, and art is about tapping into a wide palette of cultural goods from everywhere and making new ideas out of a synthesis of new and old.

Egads... So ridiculous

The fact that artists have the ability to incorporate other cultures into their work does not make any and all such acts right. There are bad ways to do so, there are good ways to do so, and most of the time it's in between. And yes, musicians do in fact call out other musicians on this.

 

[PTF]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/12/ente...ltural-appropriation-reaction-trnd/index.html



The contortions some in the black community will make in order to be offended is mindboggling.

"Cultural appropriation?" Are you effing kidding me?

Good post !