Abortion Is Against Science And Common Sense, Its Murder

[Oborosen]

IEDs??

Apologies, I meant IUD.

 

[Oborosen]

You are missing the point.

Should someone not be responsible for anything at all?

 

[Oborosen]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

Working my way backwards from the end, so if there is a context I am missing, apologies in advance.

The issue of whether or not the ZEF has right is actually rather moot. Even assuming that it does, its right do not override those of the woman carrying it. Assuming the ZEF has rights to begin with, it has no right to use the woman's body as life support against her will, any more than I have the right to use your body to sustain my life against your will. If we grant the ZEF the right to override the woman's bodily autonomy, then by extension that same right exist for all, and I can override your bodily autonomy in order to sustain myself, including hooking you up for a blood transfusion, or taking a body part.

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When a woman willingly becomes pregnant, does that not count as allowing the child access and use to her body?

If it wasn't by her choice she has my sympathy and should be allowed to choose to terminate, or carry the child. No better choice could the allowed in my opinion.

 

[minnie616]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

So what would happen to protect all of this, if RvW is ever overturned, or done away with as an example?

Because my argument does not depend on a slim decision of law. It is the bases for considering if the child should possess value as a life, and not just a possession, or an insignificant lump of cells.

Your argument uses emotional language instead of legal language and would never hold up in a court of law.

I value the life of the unborn. I value the life of born person and I value bodily autonomy even more.

I highly doubt Roe would be overturned but if it was abortion would be regulated by individual states and women would just travel across state lines. It is already happening since some states don’t have waiting periods etc. Also depending on the state an abortion clinic may be closer in another state than in the home state.

 

[minnie616]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

When a woman willingly becomes pregnant, does that not count as allowing the child access and use to her body?

If it wasn't by her choice she has my sympathy and should be allowed to choose to terminate, or carry the child. No better choice could the allowed in my opinion.

Women do not electively abort wanted pregnancies.

 

[Oborosen]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

You didn't answer my first question at the beginning of my previous post # 278. ( a simple YES or NO question ) Please do so before we proceed to discussing other issues and asking different, and separate, questions..thanks.

No, they don't posses a birth certificate. But a sheet of paper, or a plaque does not confirm life, or rights does it?

If so, all someone would need to do is shred the certificate of another and, that person is no longer considered as such.

 

[GodlessBrandy]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

Well I think we should allow the abortion of all unwanted humans, regardless of age.

 

[Oborosen]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

I wonder why Numbers 5:11-31 seems to describe an abortion, one caused by the unfaithful wife drinking a potion, given to her by the high priest.

Then there is Exodus 21:22 “If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman’s husband and confirmed by judges."

I made no mention of biblical writing.

 

[Oborosen]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

Your argument uses emotional language instead of legal language and would never hold up in a court of law.

I value the life of the unborn. I value the life of born person and I value bodily autonomy even more.

I highly doubt Roe would be overturned but if it was abortion would be regulated by individual states and women would just travel across state lines. It is already happening since some states don’t have waiting periods etc. Also depending on the state an abortion clinic may be closer in another state than in the home state.

I'm not using emotional language. I'm describing what the fetus actually is and someone as arbitrary as one ruling. Can decide that a living creature doesn't possess rights, until it reaches a certain point.

I'm more than willing to agree that a woman should have her own bodily autonomy. Yet when a child is involved, it's no longer just concerning "her" body.

 

[Oborosen]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

Women do not electively abort wanted pregnancies.

Then why be so irresponsible, as to become pregnant in the first place?

 

[Bodi]

Do you have any source laws on that? Ones that actually ban consumption. Banning sale is not the same. For example, many states ban the sale and/or give away of raw milk, but owners of milking animals (cows, goats, etc) are allowed to consume raw milk from their own animals. Additionally, a ban preventing certain meats or animals from coming in, is not a ban on consumption. Nor is being on the endangered species list an automatic ban on consumption. There are places which breed and raise certain endangered animals for the express purpose of being able to hunt them, and by extension consume.

A quick search revealed no direct bans on the consumption of any animal per se. Some effective ones as few people would go through the steps necessary to do so, but no outright bans.

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Birds and the Law

 

[Logician Man]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

No, they don't posses a birth certificate. But a sheet of paper, or a plaque does not confirm life, or rights does it?

If so, all someone would need to do is shred the certificate of another and, that person is no longer considered as such.

Actually, it does confirm rights. The unborn do not have rights. Those with birth certificates and/or social security numbers do have rights.

 

[GodlessBrandy]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

What I find strange about the whole topic of unwanted pregnancies today is that this was a very rare thing in the past, back in the day when parents could plan without all the advantages we have today in birth control. I'm not saying unwanted pregnancies didn't happen, but it wasn't rampant.

For instance my own parents were able to plan their kids out every 2 years and without, as I said earlier, all the advantages we have today in birth control.

 

[code1211]

How old is trump?

Its brain dead and inside a living person. It's her call

A brain that is producing an increasing amount of brain waves from consistently expanding areas of the brain is what you call brain dead?

You must absolutely LOVE the declared Democrat Presidential Field.

Looking back on my life when much younger and having trained numerous young people in their first jobs after graduation, being brain dead and living in a premise provided by another seems fairly common.

The Death Penalty seems a tad extreme as a remedy, though.

 

[code1211]

True enough, but strawman. The argument was that the act of abortion was murder. I proved that abortion is not murder. I am pretty sure that what you want to be your point is the morality of abortion, and such is a valid topic, and worthy of debate. But the issue of whether it is murder or not is a straight up legal and objective one, and until abortion becomes illegal, it is not murder.

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You are the person that used the word "murder". I did not.

 

[code1211]

Re: Abortion is legal, under Roe

If you throw around the word murder, you're necessarily going to have to deal with what murder means in a legal context in the US.

Is a human fetus human? By DNA it will be, barring mishaps along the way. (Remember that only 1/3 of pregnancies reach term.) @ term, & when the fetus is born & becomes a baby, it is definitely human. But human & person are not the same thing, in legal terms.

The poster introduced the word murder into the discussion.

I tried to redirect back to the idea that a life was being ended.

 

[code1211]

Re: The legal basis of slavery

It wasn't individuals in the antebellum South (& elsewhere, too, in the US) who defined the slaves' legal status. That was the legislative & judiciary of the slave states, with the acquiescence of the US Congress. More correctly, it was plantation society that ran the South, for their own benefit & to perpetuate their hold on all important positions in the South. & hardly anyone (outside of plantation society) was a citizen there (or in the colonies or the early US, for that matter) - you had to have a minimum amount of income or land or other real property, plus religious qualifications & mostly WASPish.

& slaves could rebel, or run away. Which many of them did. & once the Civil War broke out, many slaves voted with their feet, & fled to Union lines.

Are you saying that individuals did not populate the legislatures and judiciary?

 

[marke]

Simply not true. It's Fox News FFS! Science is part and parcel of abortion as well as neonatal care. Science tells us that survival at that premature age is between 20 and 30% despite the best care possible. Sco=iece tells us that NO baby born before 20 weeks has ever lived. Science tells us that a Canadian baby held the earliest surviving premie record for something like 30 years despite massive advances in neonatal ICBU care. The only thing special about this child is her very low birth weight.

Premies prove babies are babies long before the 9 month due date.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Abortion is....

Abortion is legal. Deal with it.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Premies prove babies are babies long before the 9 month due date.

They're not babies till they're born.

 

[minnie616]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

I'm not using emotional language. I'm describing what the fetus actually is and someone as arbitrary as one ruling. Can decide that a living creature doesn't possess rights, until it reaches a certain point.

I'm more than willing to agree that a woman should have her own bodily autonomy. Yet when a child is involved, it's no longer just concerning "her" body.

You described a fetusunborn as a child even though the U.S. code only recognizes a born person as a child/individual.

Again in your last sentence you used the word child to describe a fetus/unborn.

And yes a woman, ( or man for that matter ) is entitled to bodily autonomy. She has right to determine who or what uses her body and for how long.

 

[minnie616]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

Then why be so irresponsible, as to become pregnant in the first place?

Most women are responsible.

They use birth control consistently and responsibly.

 

[minnie616]

Apologies, I meant IUD.

Our Conservative Justices set a precedent when deciding the Lobby Hobby case.

They decided that even though there was no scientific proof that the IUD could possibly cause an abortion ( in fact there is lots of proof it does not cause an abortion ). The 5 conservative Justices decided that since the Lobby Hobby owners “ sincerely held religious beliefs “ felt the IUD might cause an abortion the Lobby Hobby company did not have to cover the IUD as a birth control
Device.

Since the Justices have set the precedent about sincerely held religious beliefs they should not deny the sincerely held religious beliefs of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice ( a Coalition of a vast majority of the Jewish faith and a large portion of Protestant religions and religious groups) whose sincerely held beliefs believe access to legal abortion is a part of our religious liberty in the United States.

From the RCRC:

Religious Liberty

Our religious principles: We are attuned to the important role of our diverse faiths in personal and public life. We treasure the religious freedom guaranteed Americans since our nation’s founding.

Our advocacy position: Good policy allows people of all religions to follow their own faiths and consciences in their own lives. In reproductive health, rights and justice, we define religious liberty as the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family and her faith. The religious beliefs of others should not interfere.

The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

 

[maquiscat]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

When a woman willingly becomes pregnant, does that not count as allowing the child access and use to her body?

It does, just like you can choose to allow me access to use your body, and then later change your mind and terminate that access, even if it means I would die if that access is terminated. That's how bodily autonomy works.

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[maquiscat]

Re: No, abortion isn't murder

Women do not electively abort wanted pregnancies.

Yes they do. There are many women who want their pregnancy/child, but will still abort with sufficient medical evidence that the child will suffer and/or die, and/or the mother will die.

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