• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A question for those who support the outlawing of tactical rifles, such as the AR-15

On December 31, 1959, there were basically two (2) federal gun laws:
1) The "National Firearms Act ("NFA") (1934): Taxes the manufacture and transfer of, and mandates the registration of Title II weapons such as machine guns, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, heavy weapons, explosive ordnance, silencers, and disguised or improvised firearms"; And 2) The "Federal Firearms Act of 1938 ("FFA"): Requires that gun manufacturers, importers, and persons in the business of selling firearms have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). Prohibits the transfer of firearms to certain classes of persons, such as convicted felons."

I should also note that the 1950s was a decade of exceedingly low levels of gun violence.

Fast-forwarding to today we find there to be more than 20,000 federal and state gun laws, all the while levels of gun violence is exceedingly high especially when juxtaposed to the 1950s.

So my question is, what exactly is it that causes you to think that yet more gun laws up to and including the prohibition of tactical rifles/"assault rifles" would serve to diminish gun violence?

Thank you.

The homicide rates since 2010 when firearm sales exploded are pretty much on par with the 1950s and no other time since the 1950s have the two decades been almost equal.
 
The follow up question to "If people don't have guns, there will be no gun violence" should be "will there be no violence?"

Waste of breath. There will never be an end to pleas for the government to "make us safe". Well, they might be satisfied if the government was tasked with lobotomizing all former gun owners, but I doubt it.......
 
The total number of rifle homicides reported by FBI UCR included homicides by "assault weapon" and homicides by all other types of rifles combined into numbers by state.

Which means they are not the same things
 
That was not a national ban

it was a ban with felony penalties for bringing guns to Chicago from other states. Just like it would be felony for people to bring guns into the USA if the Democrats were stupid enough to try a national ban
 
An "assault weapon" is a rifle. Why are you arguing this?

for the sake of being contrarian I expect. the fact is almost all things bannerhoid politicians call "assault weapons" are rifles
 
On December 31, 1959, there were basically two (2) federal gun laws:
1) The "National Firearms Act ("NFA") (1934): Taxes the manufacture and transfer of, and mandates the registration of Title II weapons such as machine guns, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, heavy weapons, explosive ordnance, silencers, and disguised or improvised firearms"; And 2) The "Federal Firearms Act of 1938 ("FFA"): Requires that gun manufacturers, importers, and persons in the business of selling firearms have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). Prohibits the transfer of firearms to certain classes of persons, such as convicted felons."

I should also note that the 1950s was a decade of exceedingly low levels of gun violence.

Fast-forwarding to today we find there to be more than 20,000 federal and state gun laws, all the while levels of gun violence is exceedingly high especially when juxtaposed to the 1950s.

So my question is, what exactly is it that causes you to think that yet more gun laws up to and including the prohibition of tactical rifles/"assault rifles" would serve to diminish gun violence?

Thank you.

The anti-gunners want to ban gun ownership, period. They have absolutely no other motivation.
 
"The anti-gunners want to ban gun ownership, period. They have absolutely no other motivation."

I don't think that is at all true. Pistols cause many of the gun deaths in this country. But the fact is that a pistol is inherently a defensive weapon. While the extreme left of the gun control crowd might have a few folks that want to go after all guns they are way in the minority for the simple fact that you would have to be out of your mind to think you could make a case against inherently defensive weapons. People concerned with the amount of violent death in this country are not by and large out of their minds.

While assault rifles do not make up the bulk of gun deaths in this country the inherent nature of the weapon is offensive.

The combination of:
-relatively long barrel (to a pistol)
-low recoil
-relatively short stock
- high cap mag
- extremely lethal rounds

makes for a uniquely offensive weapon. The relatively long barrel and low recoil make for a weapon that is easy to get on and keep on target outside of effective pistol range even for a novice. The relatively short stock makes it easy to maneuver and move from target to target. The high cap mags add another element of lethality to a weapon that is easy to get on and keep on target. Combine those elements with rounds that are extremely lethal (note the high death to maim to wound rate) and you really have an extremely effective offensive weapon. Note in Parkland, 17 deaths to 14 non-lethal injuries. I would guess that of the 14 injured, a relatively high percentage of those will never fully recover from their wounds and will carry them for the rest of their lives...some will likely live shorter lives because of their wounds. There is very little chance of a clean wound with rifle rounds. They tend to turn internal organs to jello.

Pistols become truly lethal when you can walk up to somebody and put one in the back of his head. Outside of 7 yards and under pressure even an experienced pistol shot might not hit a darned thing and even if he did pistol loads will more often make wounds as opposed to kill or maim.

So in spite of the percentages for pistol deaths vs assault rifle deaths I suspect there will be continued pressure to ban assault rifles that will not then yield much interest in banning hunting rifles or pistols because there is simply no interest in getting there by the bulk of gun control proponents and no logical way to make the argument either. Pistols are inherently defensive weapons and hunting rifles don't combine the unique characteristics of an assault rifle. By the way, the gun community does not do itself much good calling an AR-15 a "sporting rifle" or the rounds "varmint" rounds.

I do think the move to make NICS actually work and have actual background checks and return to some sanity with regard to mental illness and guns (said sane legislation having been completely reversed by the very first thing signed into law by the current administration) will continue. But an effort to ban all guns.....Illogical NRA BS scare tactics designed to continue to scare gun owners out of their shorts and to the polls.
 
"The anti-gunners want to ban gun ownership, period. They have absolutely no other motivation."

I don't think that is at all true. Pistols cause many of the gun deaths in this country. But the fact is that a pistol is inherently a defensive weapon. While the extreme left of the gun control crowd might have a few folks that want to go after all guns they are way in the minority for the simple fact that you would have to be out of your mind to think you could make a case against inherently defensive weapons. People concerned with the amount of violent death in this country are not by and large out of their minds.

While assault rifles do not make up the bulk of gun deaths in this country the inherent nature of the weapon is offensive.

The combination of:
-relatively long barrel (to a pistol)
-low recoil
-relatively short stock
- high cap mag
- extremely lethal rounds

makes for a uniquely offensive weapon. The relatively long barrel and low recoil make for a weapon that is easy to get on and keep on target outside of effective pistol range even for a novice. The relatively short stock makes it easy to maneuver and move from target to target. The high cap mags add another element of lethality to a weapon that is easy to get on and keep on target. Combine those elements with rounds that are extremely lethal (note the high death to maim to wound rate) and you really have an extremely effective offensive weapon. Note in Parkland, 17 deaths to 14 non-lethal injuries. I would guess that of the 14 injured, a relatively high percentage of those will never fully recover from their wounds and will carry them for the rest of their lives...some will likely live shorter lives because of their wounds. There is very little chance of a clean wound with rifle rounds. They tend to turn internal organs to jello.

Pistols become truly lethal when you can walk up to somebody and put one in the back of his head. Outside of 7 yards and under pressure even an experienced pistol shot might not hit a darned thing and even if he did pistol loads will more often make wounds as opposed to kill or maim.

So in spite of the percentages for pistol deaths vs assault rifle deaths I suspect there will be continued pressure to ban assault rifles that will not then yield much interest in banning hunting rifles or pistols because there is simply no interest in getting there by the bulk of gun control proponents and no logical way to make the argument either. Pistols are inherently defensive weapons and hunting rifles don't combine the unique characteristics of an assault rifle. By the way, the gun community does not do itself much good calling an AR-15 a "sporting rifle" or the rounds "varmint" rounds.

I do think the move to make NICS actually work and have actual background checks and return to some sanity with regard to mental illness and guns (said sane legislation having been completely reversed by the very first thing signed into law by the current administration) will continue. But an effort to ban all guns.....Illogical NRA BS scare tactics designed to continue to scare gun owners out of their shorts and to the polls.

you really are proving you don't understand firearms tactics. why are police carrying "offensive" firearms
 
So in spite of the percentages for pistol deaths vs assault rifle deaths I suspect there will be continued pressure to ban assault rifles that will not then yield much interest in banning hunting rifles or pistols because there is simply no interest in getting there by the bulk of gun control proponents and no logical way to make the argument either. Pistols are inherently defensive weapons and hunting rifles don't combine the unique characteristics of an assault rifle. By the way, the gun community does not do itself much good calling an AR-15 a "sporting rifle" or the rounds "varmint" rounds.

What else should they call Hornady VMAX or similar rounds typically fired from an AR-15 at varmints? Do you know just how many different types of rounds there are for the AR in just .223/5.56mm? If pistols are inherently defensive weapons how do so many criminals find them useful in the hundreds of thousands of violent offensives they commit each year?

I do think the move to make NICS actually work and have actual background checks and return to some sanity with regard to mental illness and guns (said sane legislation having been completely reversed by the very first thing signed into law by the current administration) will continue.

You should do some more research. The restrictions on the mentally ill buying guns as established by the Gun Control Act of 1968 and codified by 18 UYSC 922g are still in place. It's a common meme that Congress and Trump allow the mentally ill to buy guns, but Congress and Trump simply overturned a new rule, not approved by Congress, that added new categories to the list of prohibited persons in 18 USC 922g. These groups also opposed this SSA rule:

"ADAPT, which “urged Congress to use the Congressional Rule Act to repeal this rule“; from the American Association of People with Disabilities, which pressed Congress “to support a Congressional Review Act (CRA) resolution to disapprove the Final Rule issued by the Social Security Administration (SSA)”; from the ACLU, which pushed “members of the House of Representatives to support the resolution disapproving the final rule of the Social Security Administration”; from The Arc of the United States, which asked “Congress to act, through the CRA process, to disapprove this new rule”; from the Association of Mature American Citizens, which exhorted “Congress to quickly pass this Joint Resolution and restore the basic Second Amendment rights this rule has abridged”; from the Autistic Self-Advocacy Network, which implored “Congress to act, through the CRA process, to disapprove this new rule and prevent the damage that it inflicts on the disability community”; and, in addition, from the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, the Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities, the Disability Law Center of Alaska, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, the National Association of County Behavioral Health and Developmental Disability Directors, the National Association for Rights Protection and Advocacy, the National Association for Rural Mental Health, the National Council on Disability, the National Council of Independent Living, the National Coalition of Mental Health Recovery, the National Disability Leadership Alliance, the National Disability Rights Network, the New York Association of Psychiatric Rehabilitation Services, and Safari Club International. All of them — every single one — urged that the rule be killed."

https://www.nationalreview.com/corn...round-check-system-or-give-guns-mentally-ill/

Here's the ACLU position:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair

But an effort to ban all guns.....Illogical NRA BS scare tactics designed to continue to scare gun owners out of their shorts and to the polls.

No bans of guns protected by the Second Amendment, Caetano, Miller, Heller and McDonald are acceptable.
 
If you are going to quote me, quote me accurately...I keyed "inherently offensive weapons". Plus, if you can't understand that law enforcement MUST on occasion adopt an offensive posture then I just don't know what to do with you.
 
If you are going to quote me, quote me accurately...I keyed "inherently offensive weapons". Plus, if you can't understand that law enforcement MUST on occasion adopt an offensive posture then I just don't know what to do with you.

tell us what offensive firearms use is vs defensive.

by definition-lawful gun owners are almost only going to be using firearms defensively.

pure offensive firearms use-snipers targeting unsuspecting victims-military or civilian
Criminals using firearms to threaten or assault victims.
 
Even the original .223 is categorized as a varmint round...my rear end it is.

Also no less a gun advocate than Scalia did not consider the AR-15 and its assault rifle cousins "safe" from gun control legislation. Heller DOES not protect every gun in existence and does not even imply that every gun should be available for purchase by the citizenry. More NRA BS.
 
tell us what offensive firearms use is vs defensive.
that should be obvious

by definition-lawful gun owners are almost only going to be using firearms defensively.
Well I guess that means gun advocates whole militia argument is out the window. If a militia is only going to respond to threats defensively, that is a pretty lame militia.

pure offensive firearms use-snipers targeting unsuspecting victims-military or civilian
Criminals using firearms to threaten or assault victims.
WRONG
 
On December 31, 1959, there were basically two (2) federal gun laws:
1) The "National Firearms Act ("NFA") (1934): Taxes the manufacture and transfer of, and mandates the registration of Title II weapons such as machine guns, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, heavy weapons, explosive ordnance, silencers, and disguised or improvised firearms"; And 2) The "Federal Firearms Act of 1938 ("FFA"): Requires that gun manufacturers, importers, and persons in the business of selling firearms have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). Prohibits the transfer of firearms to certain classes of persons, such as convicted felons."

I should also note that the 1950s was a decade of exceedingly low levels of gun violence.

Fast-forwarding to today we find there to be more than 20,000 federal and state gun laws, all the while levels of gun violence is exceedingly high especially when juxtaposed to the 1950s.

So my question is, what exactly is it that causes you to think that yet more gun laws up to and including the prohibition of tactical rifles/"assault rifles" would serve to diminish gun violence?

Thank you.

The right laws make the difference.
 
Even the original .223 is categorized as a varmint round...my rear end it is.

What's the original .223?

"Springfield Armory's Earle Harvey lengthened the .222 Remington cartridge case to meet the requirements. It was then known as the .224 Springfield. Concurrently with the SCHV project Springfield armory was developing a 7.62 mm rifle. Harvey was ordered to cease all work on the SCHV to avoid any competition of resources."
"The .222 Remington, which is also known as the Triple Deuce/Triple Two/Treble Two is a centerfire rifle cartridge. Introduced in 1950, it was the first commercial rimless .22 (5.56 mm) cartridge made in the United States. As such, it was an entirely
The .222 Remington was introduced in the Remington Arms Model 722 bolt action rifle.[3] Factory rifles often produce groups of 1 minute of arc (0.3 milliradians) or less with no tuning. The accuracy and flat trajectory of the cartridge resulted in the adoption of the round for varmint and benchrest rifles. The faster .220 Swift and .22-250 Remington provided more reach than the .222 Remington. These larger cartridges have more power (roughly 50 percent more) than the .222, but also more muzzle blast and barrel erosion.[1]

The .222 Remington is popular in Europe where it is known as 5.7×43. Sako was one of the first European makers to introduce .222 Remington rifles and cartridges, and German and Austrian hunters quickly adopted the .222 Remington for hunting smaller deer-sized game.new design, without a parent case.[2] The .222 Remington was a popular target cartridge from its introduction until the mid-1970s and still enjoys a reputation for inherent accuracy. It remains a popular vermin or "varmint" cartridge at short and medium ranges with preferred bullet weights of 40-55 grains and muzzle velocities from 3000-3500 fps."

Also no less a gun advocate than Scalia did not consider the AR-15 and its assault rifle cousins "safe" from gun control legislation.
Machine guns, yes; semiautomatic rifles, no. The significant difference between the two is simply the firing mode. Semiautomatic rifles have been in existence since at least 1904, and were not even considered to be added to NFA 1934. Are AR-15s "bearable arms" "in common use for lawful purposes" or "having a reasonable relationship to the preservation and efficiency of a well-regulated militia"?

Heller DOES not protect every gun in existence and does not even imply that every gun should be available for purchase by the citizenry. More NRA BS.

What guns fall outside of "bearable arms" "in common use for lawful purposes" or "having a reasonable relationship to the preservation and efficiency of a well-regulated militia"? You have to account for Miller and Caetano in addition to Heller, you know.
 
Read Scalia's oratory before he died. The entire reason the gun community wants to call the AR-15 and its cousins "sporting guns" is to shoehorn them in under Heller. So I guess the gun community itself considers Heller a threat to the assault rifle and so did Scalia.

We can simply decide to ban the assault rifle from purchase from citizens. There is absolutely nothing that would prevent it.

In fact, we better do it before 2020-2022 because the military is abandoning the platform that spawned this series for an even more lethal "assault" rifle. While I am at it, do I have to explain the meaning of the word assault to some of you?
 
An "assault weapon" is a rifle. Why are you arguing this?

Why are you so confused about what I said?

In the hope that repetition will work, I will repeat myself: Rifle and assault weapon are not the same thing.
 
it was a ban with felony penalties for bringing guns to Chicago from other states. Just like it would be felony for people to bring guns into the USA if the Democrats were stupid enough to try a national ban

IOW, it was not a national ban
 
Why are you so confused about what I said?

In the hope that repetition will work, I will repeat myself: Rifle and assault weapon are not the same thing.

Define the difference in your mind
 
Read Scalia's oratory before he died. The entire reason the gun community wants to call the AR-15 and its cousins "sporting guns" is to shoehorn them in under Heller. So I guess the gun community itself considers Heller a threat to the assault rifle and so did Scalia.

We can simply decide to ban the assault rifle from purchase from citizens. There is absolutely nothing that would prevent it.

In fact, we better do it before 2020-2022 because the military is abandoning the platform that spawned this series for an even more lethal "assault" rifle. While I am at it, do I have to explain the meaning of the word assault to some of you?

If Heller doesn't protect a firearm in common use for lawful purposes, it protects nothing.

What is the need to ban rifles based on the Colt Sporter?
 
Read Scalia's oratory before he died. The entire reason the gun community wants to call the AR-15 and its cousins "sporting guns" is to shoehorn them in under Heller. So I guess the gun community itself considers Heller a threat to the assault rifle and so did Scalia.

We can simply decide to ban the assault rifle from purchase from citizens. There is absolutely nothing that would prevent it.

In fact, we better do it before 2020-2022 because the military is abandoning the platform that spawned this series for an even more lethal "assault" rifle. While I am at it, do I have to explain the meaning of the word assault to some of you?

Now you've done it: you'v challenged them; they don't like to be challenged. Now they're going to make recite the AR15 manual by rote and name all the parts as well as the ammo load or your opinion won't count. Please don't tell them that the founders who wrote and passed the second amendment were not experts in firearms; that confuses them.

Good luck
 
The follow up question to "If people don't have guns, there will be no gun violence" should be "will there be no violence?"

Was there violence before guns? Was there violence after guns?
 
Back
Top Bottom