A question for straight women.

[PirateMk1]

There's no such thing as an alpha male.

I believe the ladies are saying otherwise.

 

[Josie]

But then I am your soul sister in really empathizing with people. I cry at super market openings.

Haha. I tear up when people on game shows win a lot of money and don't get me started on those commercials where the mom hears noise in her kids' bedroom and opens the door ready to yell at them when she sees them reading a book together. Dammit -- just thinking about it. *sniff*

 

[late]

1) People want different things when they want casual sex, then when they want a lasting relationship.

2) A lot of this is just different personality types. You don't want to mate a mouse with a lion. Just doesn't work. Or a pacifist with a S&M gal. That would not end well.

3) A lot of this is because there is a power shift going on. Power is shifting to women. I don't want to discuss that, just observe that it adds to the uncertainty of what was already a tough situation. As much as my childhood sucked in the 50s and 60s, I wouldn't want to be a kid today.

4) Technology plays a big role in this. Women have always been able to trade up in a casual relationship. I would think technology (like Tinder) would aggravate that situation.

5) Income inequality... there's no getting around it, part of this is a result from the diminishing wealth and status of young blue collar males.

One last tidbit, alpha went undefined in this discussion. There are strikingly different behaviors that get described as alpha.

 

[CLAX1911]

In terms of being sensitive, he needs to be the opposite of me. I'm a very emotional person. I cry when you cry - I feel your feelings along with you. I don't know why - that's just how I'm made. He needs to not be that way because there certainly doesn't need to be two very emotional people in a relationship or it just ends up being a depressing sob fest. I'm not sure how to explain what the appropriate amount of sensitivity should be. Emotional when it's "normal" to be, I guess.

I think I read you loud and clear. A guy that isn't afraid to cry when his mother dies but knows exactly when he should put his arm around you.

Thanks for humoring my questions. And if I got it wrong please let me know.

Now in terms of being very quick to anger (also emotional), I REALLY dislike guys who get mad quickly.

I get that. And I think guys that do that think that anger is a safe emotion to have when they are really feeling down or hurt.

From a make perspective anger is manly and I think that's why some guys are that way.

Romance is a must, of course. I dated a guy once who seemed to be devoid of any romantic gene in his body and that was really boring and a waste of time.

Would you consider romance to be gestures that a guy makes to signify love for you?

 

[AlbqOwl]

Haha. I tear up when people on game shows win a lot of money and don't get me started on those commercials where the mom hears noise in her kids' bedroom and opens the door ready to yell at them when she sees them reading a book together. Dammit -- just thinking about it. *sniff*

Ah, my sister from a different mister.

 

[Josie]

I think I read you loud and clear. A guy that isn't afraid to cry when his mother dies but knows exactly when he should put his arm around you.

Thanks for humoring my questions. And if I got it wrong please let me know.

I get that. And I think guys that do that think that anger is a safe emotion to have when they are really feeling down or hurt.

From a make perspective anger is manly and I think that's why some guys are that way.

Would you consider romance to be gestures that a guy makes to signify love for you?

Of course. And that's not gifts for me. Understanding what makes me feel loved and doing that often.

 

[CLAX1911]

There's no such thing as an alpha male.

Some of the women here seem to disagree.

 

[CLAX1911]

For the most part we are largely on the same page. But I don't even mind a bit of bravado. Sometimes it is born of courage to step forward even when a person is unsure of himself/herself and/or is pushing past fear.

Well, I think stepping forward when you are unsure is bravery not bravado. I think it takes a lot of courage to stand up get knocked down and stand back up again. And i agree the right amount of bravado can be a good thing.

I just realized brave is the root word of bravado.

In the movie "Buffalo Girls", Calamity Jane found herself at the scene of Custer's last stand and staring down the barrel of Sitting Bull's rifle. Her Indian friend, "No Ears", steps between her and Sitting Bull and quietly, without comment, stares Sitting Bull down. Sitting Bull pulls the trigger on an empty chamber in his rifle and rides off whooping.

"No Ears" was the quintessential beta male, never intrusive or bragging, just going with the flow, but infinitely wise, honest, caring, on point, and brave when he needed to be. Extremely attractive.

That's interesting, if have considered him Alpha at least in the moment he stepped between the gun and calamity Jane.

Never saw the movie so I'm unfamiliar with the character.

 

[MrWonka]

Some of the women here seem to disagree.

Saying that someone is an alpha male is like saying someone is a douchebag. It is an entirely subjective concept, and there is no correct way to identify one. In fact, about the closest way to identify a person who is universally a douchebag is that they view men as alphas and betas.

 

[MrWonka]

The arrogant alpha male bully, or the emboldened beta male cowardly bully--that would include women also--who is incapable of making an argument or disagreeing or expressing an opinion or articulating a point of view without putting somebody down, insulting somebody, criticizing somebody, etc. is a huge turn off for me.

So basically our current President.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Well, I think stepping forward when you are unsure is bravery not bravado. I think it takes a lot of courage to stand up get knocked down and stand back up again. And i agree the right amount of bravado can be a good thing.

I just realized brave is the root word of bravado.
That's interesting, if have considered him Alpha at least in the moment he stepped between the gun and calamity Jane.

Never saw the movie so I'm unfamiliar with the character.

It's an interesting movie with all the typical historical movie mixture of fact and fiction. But I don't think "No Ears" was at all Alpha when he stepped in front of his friend to protect her. I think it was a reasoned instinct to do the right thing, which I think most intellectually honest beta males (or females) who have integrity will do. There is simply no 'bravado' involved. "No Ears" would give unsolicited opinions or observations, but didn't argue if such opinions or observations were dismissed. He was never self promoting nor self deprecating. But consistency of character and integrity was the code he lived by.

Gregory Peck played the role of that kind of beta male in the movie "Big Country." Quietly confident and non-assertive he was very much his own person with his own defensible code of ethics and integrity. Very sexy.
Conversely his nemesis, the ranch foreman played by Charleston Heston, was the quintessential alpha male, aggressive, always ready to fight for honor, going after what he wanted. Not so sexy to somebody like me, but intended to be the epitome of how a 'real man' acts to the rancher's daughter.

And I'll concede a bit on the point of 'bravado' which I can see could be pretending to have courage that doesn't exist and perhaps won't hold up if it has to be acted on.

 

[MrWonka]

I believe the ladies are saying otherwise.

No, actually they aren't. You've got a few people who are unsure of the definitions, and a few who are talking about attributes typically associated with one, but that does not mean they exist.

Assertive and aggressive men can exist, and within a small group of men you might have one guy that's more assertive and aggressive than others, but there is no such thing as an actual alpha male or beta male. For example, last week I and a bunch of friends went on a road trip for a friends birthday. It was 6 people. 4 guys and 2 girls. 1 single girl, 3 single guys. The guy in the group that would most likely describe as assertive and aggressive was universally considered a huge douchebag by everyone else(he threw a hissy fit because he couldn't get the 1 single girl to sleep with him).

 

[CLAX1911]

Saying that someone is an alpha male is like saying someone is a douchebag.

MrWonka, your opinion is just as valid as anybody else's and you have a rought to it. I simply disagree, and that's my opinion. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just think differently.

It is an entirely subjective concept, and there is no correct way to identify one.

Exactly, and I 100% agree with this sentiment which is why in the opening post I asked women (and gay men) to tell me what they considered any alpha.

Now my goal in this thread was mainly to understand what women think about it because I am an atypical homosexual man. (I go for absolute betas) and I wanted to gain understanding of women.

I'm not trying to dismiss your posts, it's just not necessarily the info I'm looking for.

In fact, about the closest way to identify a person who is universally a douchebag is that they view men as alphas and betas.

Again I disagree.

 

[AlbqOwl]

So basically our current President.

Not at all. Well almost not at all. He is definitely an Alpha male and he is sometimes more aggressive or abrasive than some might prefer and I doubt some of the more cringe worthy instances have not been evident to any of us. But while he gives as good as he gets on offense, he respects everybody worthy of respect on an equal basis, and criticizes those deserving criticism on an equal basis. That he is politically incorrect and refuses to defer to the politically correct position re anybody or any thing just makes him intellectually honest and of higher integrity than most.

A bully he is not. An aggressive, assertive Alpha male he is.

 

[CLAX1911]

It's an interesting movie with all the typical historical movie mixture of fact and fiction. But I don't think "No Ears" was at all Alpha when he stepped in front of his friend to protect her. I think it was a reasoned instinct to do the right thing, which I think most intellectually honest beta males (or females) who have integrity will do. There is simply no 'bravado' involved. "No Ears" would give unsolicited opinions or observations, but didn't argue if such opinions or observations were dismissed. He was never self promoting nor self deprecating. But consistency of character and integrity was the code he lived by.

Gregory Peck played the role of that kind of beta male in the movie "Big Country." Quietly confident and non-assertive he was very much his own person with his own defensible code of ethics and integrity. Very sexy.
Conversely his nemesis, the ranch foreman played by Charleston Heston, was the quintessential alpha male, aggressive, always ready to fight for honor, going after what he wanted. Not so sexy to somebody like me, but intended to be the epitome of how a 'real man' acts to the rancher's daughter.

And I'll concede a bit on the point of 'bravado' which I can see could be pretending to have courage that doesn't exist and perhaps won't hold up if it has to be acted on.

okay, so it seems I define a beta male very differently a than you do. That's cool, and its Nither here nor there how I define it because I addressed particularly straight women.

So just because you consider a man to be beta doesn't necessarily mean he is less attractive to you?

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.

 

[AlbqOwl]

As an aside, those who are beta men and women are sometimes put off by the Alpha personality and sometimes see it as pushy, abrasive, overly aggressive, arrogant, obnoxious etc. etc. etc. In the same way the introvert often sees those unattractive traits in the strong extrovert.

I would say though that while many alpha males are extroverted, not all. And while many beta males are introverted, not all. There are a myriad bunch of factors at play.

But neither the introvert or beta male should be automatically classified as timid or nonassertive. And the alpha male is not automatically classified as aggressive or strong. Lots of factors.

 

[CLAX1911]

No, actually they aren't. You've got a few people who are unsure of the definitions, and a few who are talking about attributes typically associated with one, but that does not mean they exist.

It doesn't mean they exist as an objectively quantifiable thing. If that is what you ment I agree.

But it is subjectively quantifiable and in fact you did quantify it subjectively. You said alpha males are douschbags.

That opinion is one I view as just as valid as any other. And I'm not going to call you a beta for saying that.

Assertive and aggressive men can exist, and within a small group of men you might have one guy that's more assertive and aggressive than others, but there is no such thing as an actual alpha male or beta male. For example, last week I and a bunch of friends went on a road trip for a friends birthday. It was 6 people. 4 guys and 2 girls. 1 single girl, 3 single guys. The guy in the group that would most likely describe as assertive and aggressive was universally considered a huge douchebag by everyone else(he threw a hissy fit because he couldn't get the 1 single girl to sleep with him).

In my opinion a man that displayed such insecurities would not be considered an alpha.

 

[AlbqOwl]

okay, so it seems I define a beta male very differently a than you do. That's cool, and its Nither here nor there how I define it because I addressed particularly straight women.

So just because you consider a man to be beta doesn't necessarily mean he is less attractive to you?

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.

I've been married to a beta male for a very very long time now. I myself am mostly an alpha woman. And yes, while I am initially attracted to alpha males 'at first sight' as it were--you never get too old to notice or think about it --my husband is still very much attractive to me and very much respected as a strong, honest person who knows who he is and is true to himself. And who I can count on to be there for me when I need it.

 

[CLAX1911]

As an aside, those who are beta men and women are sometimes put off by the Alpha personality and sometimes see it as pushy, abrasive, overly aggressive, arrogant, obnoxious etc. etc. etc. In the same way the introvert often sees those unattractive traits in the strong extrovert.

So do you think that old saying "opposites attract" is over simplified?

I would say though that while many alpha males are extroverted, not all. And while many beta males are introverted, not all. There are a myriad bunch of factors at play.

Where would you rank the trait of confidence within that myriad?

But neither the introvert or beta male should be automatically classified as timid or weak. And the alpha male is not automatically classified as aggressive or strong. Lots of factors.

Interesting take on it, so things like alpha and beta are really more along the lines of shades of grey in your opinion?

 

[CLAX1911]

1) People want different things when they want casual sex, then when they want a lasting relationship.

2) A lot of this is just different personality types. You don't want to mate a mouse with a lion. Just doesn't work. Or a pacifist with a S&M gal. That would not end well.

3) A lot of this is because there is a power shift going on. Power is shifting to women. I don't want to discuss that, just observe that it adds to the uncertainty of what was already a tough situation. As much as my childhood sucked in the 50s and 60s, I wouldn't want to be a kid today.

4) Technology plays a big role in this. Women have always been able to trade up in a casual relationship. I would think technology (like Tinder) would aggravate that situation.

5) Income inequality... there's no getting around it, part of this is a result from the diminishing wealth and status of young blue collar males.

One last tidbit, alpha went undefined in this discussion. There are strikingly different behaviors that get described as alpha.

My intent is to get ladies opinions on what makes a man an alpha male sand what they find attractive.

 

[iliveonramen]

no actually it doesn't it was applied to animals and that includes humans but it's a concept.

No animals like gorillas or Wolves have a different pack mentality than humans do. That's why I'm asking human women how they think and feel rather than asking biologists how they would describe and Alpha squirrel.

The terminology and concept of alphas is from someone that watched animals. The idea of alpha was applied to humans started decades after that research and it more pop psychology than anything else.

There are common traits that women find attractive...I'm just pointing out the whole concept of alpha and beta is pop psychology.

As I stated earlier it seems to be the constant among human females that confidence is what makes a human male and Alpha. There are some other secondary traits but that seems to be the primary one. People considered douchebags are typically unappealing hence the name. I think that as a species we are able to tell real confidence from bravado. And that's why certain people get labeled douchebags.

The idea that women are attracted to confidence or even other characteristics I'm not debating. The terminology of Alpha and Beta though are annoying.

 

[CLAX1911]

The terminology and concept of alphas is from someone that watched animals.

Humans are animals.

The idea of alpha was applied to humans started decades after that research and it more pop psychology than anything else.

The terminology yes, the concept, i do not agree.

There are common traits that women find attractive...I'm just pointing out the whole concept of alpha and beta is pop psychology.

Sure, and I accept that but just because it is doesn't mean there isn't any validity to it.

The idea that women are attracted to confidence or even other characteristics I'm not debating. The terminology of Alpha and Beta though are annoying.

Well, I agree to a point, but I know no other words to use without a lengthy dive into philosophy that simply can't happen here because of 5000 character limits on posts, and people really didn't want to read that much.

So I use the short hand. I am aware when I use the term alpha and beta a different picture is formulated in everybody's mind which is why I left it for the individual to define.

 

[Mizzy22]

I find a bully who is to scared to serve,so he gets a Doctor to claim the bully has bone spurs.
Is the worse kind of coward.

 

[AlbqOwl]

So do you think that old saying "opposites attract" is over simplified?

Where would you rank the trait of confidence within that myriad?


Interesting take on it, so things like alpha and beta are really more along the lines of shades of grey in your opinion?

I don't think opposites necessarily attract. I think most of us find soul mates in those who share are core values, who enjoy doing most of the same things, who appreciate the same friends/family, i.e. those with whom we have a lot in common, who respect each other, who 'get each other' in a way that others do not.

That should not be extrapolated that each can't have interests the other doesn't share or can't be their own person. But they will have a lot in common. Physical and/or intellectual attraction is a huge plus, but it cannot and will not sustain a healthy relationship by itself over the long term. And such characteristics can exist whether or not a person is alpha or beta.

'Genuine confidence' is a necessary trait for the alpha male or female who will exhibit that in their assertiveness. For instance, as an extroverted alpha female, I will confidently proceed with a presentation or Q&A that I am not formally prepared for on the theory that I will be able to wing it or what comes next will come to me as I go along. And for the most part that has worked for me very well. Alpha males can usually do that too. The beta personality can do that if required to do so, but will be far less comfortable and/or confident--he/she will require opportunity to prepare whenever possible. Somebody like me, not so much. That does not mean I don't prepare for a presentation or Q&A--I do whenever prudent to do so--but I will proceed with confidence even if I do not have opportunity to prepare. The beta personality can't do that as easily or comfortably.

But either of us might be the more competent in what we do.

The beta personality is not less confident in his/her ability, knowledge, competence. He/she is just not as assertive in spontaneously putting it out there.

Probably the best distinction between Alpha and Beta is that the Alpha will more often be the first to act. The Beta will more often react rather than act.

And finally to your question, I don't see Alpha and Beta as necessarily shades of gray. I just see some of both exhibited in a lot of people--the Alpha male for whatever reason can have an attack of insecurity or shyness that overrides his more natural impulses and/or responses, and the Beta male can be inspired or provoked to act out in uncharacteristic ways for him.

But both the Alpha and Beta are equally 'real men' to me. I will just usually notice and appreciate the attractive Alpha male more quickly than the Beta male that I probably will have to get to know better before I will recognize him to be the 'real man' that he is.

 

[OlNate]

I like guys who are 84% alpha and 16% beta.

Well, here's a giant F.U. from the 83/17 crowd!!! :lol: