A Nation of Simpletons

[MrWonka]

Nov 2016 we had a choice between two turds, one of whom contains nuts. I chose the sane one, she lost and so did America with a President Trump.

So you admit one is sane and the other not, but yet some how you equate them as turds.

People choose between two things they don't particularly like all the time. Why is only a problem when it comes to an election?

 

[<alt>doxygen]

I wonder why the simpleton is President and the cerbral types like yourself are TDSing anonymoysly on the internet. Why do you think that is?

The simpleton is your God Emperor. Having fun?

 

[ataraxia]

So the poorly educated outsmarted the cerebral types? Seems to me the highly educated should have known about this before the election and done something about it eh?

No, it's just that the pitchfork and torch carrying mobs overhwhelmed them. There's just too many of them.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Let's review some simpleton ideas that Trump won on. Let's start with illegal immigration and why democrats do not want our borders enforced. Please don't say you do...that isn't cerebral. That's what we call a lie. Please defend your ideology.

Accusation weakly disguised as a question. ^ Stawman dismissed. Try again.

 

[ataraxia]

In my lifetime I have had 3 "careers" and at least 24 jobs, ranging from janitor, cook and bottlewasher (literally) to Executive Officer and Assistant Attorney General. I consider myself intellectual, as I like to think about all kinds of things, including what I think and do, but, notwithstanding some posts to the contrary, not arrogant. But... I have noticed, even in myself, a creeping pattern of discourse that is both crude and dismissive. It's not just here on this forum, it is in our newspapers and magazines, on our televisions, and in our daily lives. Conversations are boiled down to "tweets" and text messages (email is so passe), or, if particularly loquacious, a brief exchange while waiting for our lattes at Starbucks. People don't interact with each other as fully as they did even a few decades ago. They get their information and form beliefs from headlines, not the articles.

I've noticed it particularly on weighty topics like climate change, global economics or the Mueller report. In lieu of in-depth study or reading, we post and respond with pithy points based upon cursory knowledge or beliefs. Again, it is not just on discussion forums like this. It seems to be everywhere. We have become a nation of simpletons. Complex thoughts and understanding are becoming rarer and rarer. Part of it is the deteriorization (that's deliberate, not a typo) of our education system, and the divisions between the haves and have nots - but it infests every strata of society. The apotheosis, in my view, is Donald Trump in the White House, the apex simpleton, and a cabinet full of singularly unqualified appointees. But again, it is not a political thing. We, as a society, have attention deficit in the worst way. We can't hold onto a line of thought to the end of a sentence, much less a paragraph, and even less a 448 page report. Our understanding of a topic has to be reduced to a bumper sticker, 288 characters, or a single double-spaced page with bullet points. In that environment bad actors get away with murder, and much worse.

I haven't determined whether our political divide is a symptom of this or merely an accelerant of the trend. Our beliefs are becoming binary: With me, agin' me; fascist or socialist; crackpot or nutjob. But there are big, complicated issues that we have to address both individually and as a nation - security (social, national and personal), environmental degradation, national and international economics, social justice - and soon we are going to be faced with even more, like a worldwide water shortage, dwindling fuel supplies, loss of natural resources and population growth. These are issues that are not amenable to bumper-sticker sized solutions or pithy programs. We need to emerge from our simpleton stupor, but the question is, how?

I am not sure this is anything new. It's just that the age of the internet has democratized stupidity too, and they have an even bigger voice.

This is Isaac Asimov back in 1980:

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
-Isaac Asimov

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

See?

Here you make a statement that says you can’t be smart AND support border security.

You’ve already decided, regardless of what the facts may be. Then you demand that your straw man argument must be defended.

Let's review some simpleton ideas that Trump won on. Let's start with illegal immigration and why democrats do not want our borders enforced. Please don't say you do...that isn't cerebral. That's what we call a lie. Please defend your ideology.

And more than that, Alpha Omega is reduced to just flat out calling anyone who disagrees with him a liar.
The anonymity of sitting behind a keyboard is comforting to cowards because they can call people liars and not fear the consequences. Maybe some of us intellectuals sometimes let anger get the better of us from time to time in real life, like a hypothetical situation where we state our positions honestly and some sniveling derpy coward who shall remain nameless calls us a liar. Then we switch from intellectual to pugilist, if only to get their attention, and at least momentary respect.

I expect my word on my positions to get at least the basic human dignity of respect, as long as I am playing by the rules of decorum and civility. Call me a liar after I sincerely state my position and you have broken civility.

I sincerely DO support border security. I may not agree with the current methodology and the fearmongering in vogue right now but I want immigration controlled by a multitude of criteria, quotas, quality, qualifications, clean records, verifiable ID, abilities, ambition, willingness to mainstream and adapt, and many others.

Now call me a liar, but try and do it to my face. You won't. I guarantee you won't.

My reaction will be, to use a term appropriate for this thread: BINARY.

 

[NWRatCon]

You raise some interesting points and then destroy them by introducing Trump into the discussion. You argue for rational, reasoned discussion, then subtly imply "if you disagree with me on Trump" you're not part of the intellectual, academic cohort I'm talking to.

On a second topic, forums like this are not academic discussion boards, they're, for the most part diversions, distractions: entertainment. I read and research widely for my own edification - done it for decades. And I try to apply what I've gained over those decades to my posts. I don't look at a post and spend hours of research before responding, I see this as a virtual group sitting around fire pit or table in a bar/restaurant not as a defense of my thesis.

Yeah, things get a little coarse (or worse, at times) but that's a symptom of our times, I fear. I try to separate my opinion of a person's ideas from my opinion of the person. On another forum I belonged to we had get togethers 2-3 times a year and I think that tempered some of the online discussions. And we had fun! That forum was locally based and had far fewer active participants; I can't imagine what the type of gathering would be like for DP. We'd have to rent a Las Vegas hotel!.

Feel free to leave Trump out of the conversation. My intent was as an exemplar, not to separate Trump supporters from the discussion. Let me ask this, though: Do you consider Trump, in any way, an intellectual or deep thinker? You don't have to answer here, but I am interested in the response.

My approach, probably because on other forums it is a requirement and force of habit, is to provide citations, examples or links whenever possible, even when expressing opinion. I know the tune to Dixie, so I try to avoid whistling it. I have strongly held views, mostly principles, but I am always open to persuasion. Initiating a response with, "Jane, you ignorant slut," however, is not conducive to discourse. I love it when someone brings sources or experience to a discussion.

As to your last point, I think the lack of courtesy in Congress is largely the result of a lack of socialization. I agree that when those with opposing views treat each other as human beings and fellow patriots, rather than the enemy and lesser beings, comity gets more flies - and legislation. There are, however, forces that prevent that - poor leadership, constant fundraising, and efforts to delegitimize opposition. Maybe the changing of the guard will help with that. It needs to go deeper.

 

[NWRatCon]

Some people have probably noticed that I often use the phrase "my friend", when framing a response. I do that for a couple of reasons. First, it reminds me I am communicating with another human being who also has thoughts, feelings, and opinions. Secondly, it keeps conversation civil. It's not always effective, but I've developed genuine friendships that way. As long as someone is genuine and thoughtful, I will keep it up. It's not intended to be ironic or dismissive. I can be genuinely ironic and dismissive when it's called for. More likely, you'll end up on my ignore list. People even come off that, occasionally, when it is justified.

 

[Vidi]

And more than that, Alpha Omega is reduced to just flat out calling anyone who disagrees with him a liar.
The anonymity of sitting behind a keyboard is comforting to cowards because they can call people liars and not fear the consequences. Maybe some of us intellectuals sometimes let anger get the better of us from time to time in real life, like a hypothetical situation where we state our positions honestly and some sniveling derpy coward who shall remain nameless calls us a liar. Then we switch from intellectual to pugilist, if only to get their attention, and at least momentary respect.

I expect my word on my positions to get at least the basic human dignity of respect, as long as I am playing by the rules of decorum and civility. Call me a liar after I sincerely state my position and you have broken civility.

I sincerely DO support border security. I may not agree with the current methodology and the fearmongering in vogue right now but I want immigration controlled by a multitude of criteria, quotas, quality, qualifications, clean records, verifiable ID, abilities, ambition, willingness to mainstream and adapt, and many others.

Now call me a liar, but try and do it to my face. You won't. I guarantee you won't.

My reaction will be, to use a term appropriate for this thread: BINARY.

I find it interesting how because I have certain views, I must therefore have the most extreme version of those views.

This is a perfect example. Because I do not feel that a wall will actually contribute positively to the illegal immigration issue, I must therefore be completely against border security.

It’s a ridiculous notion.

 

[Vidi]

Some people have probably noticed that I often use the phrase "my friend", when framing a response. I do that for a couple of reasons. First, it reminds me I am communicating with another human being who also has thoughts, feelings, and opinions. Secondly, it keeps conversation civil. It's not always effective, but I've developed genuine friendships that way. As long as someone is genuine and thoughtful, I will keep it up. It's not intended to be ironic or dismissive. I can be genuinely ironic and dismissive when it's called for. More likely, you'll end up on my ignore list. People even come off that, occasionally, when it is justified.

That’s important.

I enjoy speaking with people who disagree with me. It allows me to better understand them and my own views. Sometimes, I find that my opinion isn’t as fact based as I originally thought and must therefore adjust my opinion to reflect the facts.

The wall is a perfect example. Originally, though I thought it would be far more expensive than the claims ( I still feel that ), I saw no reason not to build it. I was of the opinion it could only help.

I was wrong. Not only wont it help, it will actually prevent some illegals who migrate back and forth from returning and therefore actually contribute to the problem.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

In my lifetime I have had 3 "careers" and at least 24 jobs, ranging from janitor, cook and bottlewasher (literally) to Executive Officer and Assistant Attorney General. I consider myself intellectual, as I like to think about all kinds of things, including what I think and do, but, notwithstanding some posts to the contrary, not arrogant. But... I have noticed, even in myself, a creeping pattern of discourse that is both crude and dismissive. It's not just here on this forum, it is in our newspapers and magazines, on our televisions, and in our daily lives. Conversations are boiled down to "tweets" and text messages (email is so passe), or, if particularly loquacious, a brief exchange while waiting for our lattes at Starbucks. People don't interact with each other as fully as they did even a few decades ago. They get their information and form beliefs from headlines, not the articles.

I've noticed it particularly on weighty topics like climate change, global economics or the Mueller report. In lieu of in-depth study or reading, we post and respond with pithy points based upon cursory knowledge or beliefs. Again, it is not just on discussion forums like this. It seems to be everywhere. We have become a nation of simpletons. Complex thoughts and understanding are becoming rarer and rarer. Part of it is the deteriorization (that's deliberate, not a typo) of our education system, and the divisions between the haves and have nots - but it infests every strata of society. The apotheosis, in my view, is Donald Trump in the White House, the apex simpleton, and a cabinet full of singularly unqualified appointees. But again, it is not a political thing. We, as a society, have attention deficit in the worst way. We can't hold onto a line of thought to the end of a sentence, much less a paragraph, and even less a 448 page report. Our understanding of a topic has to be reduced to a bumper sticker, 288 characters, or a single double-spaced page with bullet points. In that environment bad actors get away with murder, and much worse.

I haven't determined whether our political divide is a symptom of this or merely an accelerant of the trend. Our beliefs are becoming binary: With me, agin' me; fascist or socialist; crackpot or nutjob. But there are big, complicated issues that we have to address both individually and as a nation - security (social, national and personal), environmental degradation, national and international economics, social justice - and soon we are going to be faced with even more, like a worldwide water shortage, dwindling fuel supplies, loss of natural resources and population growth. These are issues that are not amenable to bumper-sticker sized solutions or pithy programs. We need to emerge from our simpleton stupor, but the question is, how?

Unplug the country from the infotainment machine?

We have a bad reality show potus.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Accusation weakly disguised as a question. ^ Stawman dismissed. Try again.

Good god people please look up straw man? And you guys point at others and say uneducated! lol. ...facepalm with a jesus

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Good god people please look up straw man? And you guys point at others and say uneducated! lol. ...facepalm with a jesus

The fact that you don't even recognize that BS (dems don't want border security) says more about your media diet than anything else.:lol:

 

[RobertU]

At some point, we accepted the idea that everyone was entitled to their own opinion.

While this was a fine ideal, we took that further and decided that every opinion deserved a place at the table. Every voice should be heard.

Today we have a growing flat earth movement, and an anti vaccination movement. We have learned to distrust science and intellect. We crowd source facts through Wikipedia and the echo chambers we place ourselves in push us to radical exert most views.

We have become the Idiocracy.

One of my favorite movies.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I find it interesting how because I have certain views, I must therefore have the most extreme version of those views.

This is a perfect example. Because I do not feel that a wall will actually contribute positively to the illegal immigration issue, I must therefore be completely against border security.

It’s a ridiculous notion.

That speaks DIRECTLY to what my friend NWRatCon was talking about when he said:

I haven't determined whether our political divide is a symptom of this or merely an accelerant of the trend. Our beliefs are becoming binary: With me, agin' me; fascist or socialist; crackpot or nutjob. [...]These are issues that are not amenable to bumper-sticker sized solutions or pithy programs.

And it's not JUST some minor glitch or localized anomaly. I am noticing it everywhere, in social media, on TV and radio, in print and in real life. I am witnessing a weapons grade laser focused knee-jerk reactionary form of dogma that is almost Tourettes-like, and I say that as someone who actually HAS Tourettes.

A shrill and over the top exaggerated accusation from Alpha Omega or EMNSeattle or any of several dozen members here is being duplicated all across the country, almost like a severe vocal tic, almost as if they can't control it.

I saw it start with the Tea Party, when I was covering the Tea Party Town Hall "2009 Summer of Healthcare Anger" and it exploded upward from there. Suddenly everybody who wasn't with them were either RINOs or socialists, and therefore the enemy.

It was a marionette show.



Then it started to get much angrier.



And that last one was 2009, now it's ten years later and it has ratcheted up by ten orders of magnitude.

And we don't have a shortage of over the top lunacy on the Left either:



It seems that the extreme Left have lost the ability to even actually PRACTICE "liberalism", which by nature includes "openness to ideas".
Their failed liberalism has devolved into a Horseshoe arc all the way across the spectrum to a form of intellectual fascism. Indeed, it will not surprise me if ten years from now the most vocal of the campus kiddie trigger brigade all turn into the most hard-bitten ultra-right fascists we've ever seen. And of course, they will blame everyone but themselves, especially liberals. That's what happened in the Sixties, when hordes of failed socialists and ultra-left extremists, 180'd into what we now call "Neocons". But the neocons are now almost the moderates today, believe it or not.

But they're too busy being offended and triggered to even notice their backsliding anyway, and you cannot tell them a single thing, because either they will turn on you and attack you, or they will enlist what they think are their buddies in Antifa to do it for them.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

One of my favorite movies.

Mike Judge made a point of penning several op-eds where he has as much as said something along the lines of:
"Hey goddamit, I never said that "Idiocracy" was supposed to be a how-to film or a documentary!!"

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I haven't determined whether our political divide is a symptom of this or merely an accelerant of the trend. Our beliefs are becoming binary: With me, agin' me; fascist or socialist; crackpot or nutjob. [...]These are issues that are not amenable to bumper-sticker sized solutions or pithy programs.

When you mix one part FEAR and one part "sticking it to the libtards" you get Two Minutes Hate Orwell style, just like in "Nineteen Eighty-Four" by George Orwell.
You get a refined and concentrated drug that the Trump Right shoots up almost with a syringe, and they can't get enough of it.

 

[AlphaOmega]

The fact that you don't even recognize that BS (dems don't want border security) says more about your media diet than anything else.:lol:

hahahhahahahahja...yeah dems are all over it. Jesus H christ dude.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

At some point, we accepted the idea that everyone was entitled to their own opinion.

While this was a fine ideal...

I disagree. People are not entitled to their own opinions; they are entitled to their own, informed opinions.

Nobody should be entitled to be ignorant.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

hahahhahahahahja...yeah dems are all over it. Jesus H christ dude.

Yay, open borders! More Brown Caravans! Hannity said Soros did it!:lamo

Prager! Mikey Savage! DeeeSOUZZZA!!! :2wave:

 

[AlphaOmega]

Yay, open borders! More Brown Caravans! Hannity said Soros did it!:lamo

Prager! Mikey Savage! DeeeSOUZZZA!!! :2wave:

Sanctuary cities....derp!

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Sanctuary cities....derp!

ISIS brides from Somalia are burrowing under your house. Obama Deep State controls your whole town. LAURA will tell you where the clean diapers are, 10pm. Don't miss it!

 

[AlphaOmega]

ISIS brides from Somalia are burrowing under your house. Obama Deep State controls your whole town. LAURA will tell you where the clean diapers are, 10pm. Don't miss it!

Do you deny democrats support sanctuary cities? Say yes.

 

[marke]

In my lifetime I have had 3 "careers" and at least 24 jobs, ranging from janitor, cook and bottlewasher (literally) to Executive Officer and Assistant Attorney General. I consider myself intellectual, as I like to think about all kinds of things, including what I think and do, but, notwithstanding some posts to the contrary, not arrogant. But... I have noticed, even in myself, a creeping pattern of discourse that is both crude and dismissive. It's not just here on this forum, it is in our newspapers and magazines, on our televisions, and in our daily lives. Conversations are boiled down to "tweets" and text messages (email is so passe), or, if particularly loquacious, a brief exchange while waiting for our lattes at Starbucks. People don't interact with each other as fully as they did even a few decades ago. They get their information and form beliefs from headlines, not the articles.

I've noticed it particularly on weighty topics like climate change, global economics or the Mueller report. In lieu of in-depth study or reading, we post and respond with pithy points based upon cursory knowledge or beliefs. Again, it is not just on discussion forums like this. It seems to be everywhere. We have become a nation of simpletons. Complex thoughts and understanding are becoming rarer and rarer. Part of it is the deteriorization (that's deliberate, not a typo) of our education system, and the divisions between the haves and have nots - but it infests every strata of society. The apotheosis, in my view, is Donald Trump in the White House, the apex simpleton, and a cabinet full of singularly unqualified appointees. But again, it is not a political thing. We, as a society, have attention deficit in the worst way. We can't hold onto a line of thought to the end of a sentence, much less a paragraph, and even less a 448 page report. Our understanding of a topic has to be reduced to a bumper sticker, 288 characters, or a single double-spaced page with bullet points. In that environment bad actors get away with murder, and much worse.

I haven't determined whether our political divide is a symptom of this or merely an accelerant of the trend. Our beliefs are becoming binary: With me, agin' me; fascist or socialist; crackpot or nutjob. But there are big, complicated issues that we have to address both individually and as a nation - security (social, national and personal), environmental degradation, national and international economics, social justice - and soon we are going to be faced with even more, like a worldwide water shortage, dwindling fuel supplies, loss of natural resources and population growth. These are issues that are not amenable to bumper-sticker sized solutions or pithy programs. We need to emerge from our simpleton stupor, but the question is, how?

Nobody should argue with a simpleton leftist who claims to be a simpleton.

 

[maxparrish]

...I have noticed, even in myself, a creeping pattern of discourse that is both crude and dismissive. It's not just here on this forum, it is in our newspapers and magazines, on our televisions, and in our daily lives. Conversations are boiled down to "tweets" and text messages (email is so passe), or, if particularly loquacious, a brief exchange while waiting for our lattes at Starbucks. People don't interact with each other as fully as they did even a few decades ago. They get their information and form beliefs from headlines, not the articles.

I've noticed it particularly on weighty topics like climate change, global economics or the Mueller report. In lieu of in-depth study or reading, we post and respond with pithy points based upon cursory knowledge or beliefs. Again, it is not just on discussion forums like this. It seems to be everywhere. We have become a nation of simpletons. Complex thoughts and understanding are becoming rarer and rarer. ...

I haven't determined whether our political divide is a symptom of this or merely an accelerant of the trend. Our beliefs are becoming binary: With me, agin' me; fascist or socialist; crackpot or nutjob. But there are big, complicated issues that we have to address both individually and as a nation - security (social, national and personal), environmental degradation, national and international economics, social justice - and soon we are going to be faced with even more, like a worldwide water shortage, dwindling fuel supplies, loss of natural resources and population growth. These are issues that are not amenable to bumper-sticker sized solutions or pithy programs. We need to emerge from our simpleton stupor, but the question is, how?

A partial explanation might be that much of the division was always present but excluded from discourse. When we (I) grew up there was not an outlet for the masses. Media consisted of three networks, several opinion magazines, and some extensive and often in-depth news magazines. IF you wanted to vent, you wrote the editor. And you had to be sufficiently confident in your literacy so as to not embarrass yourself in writing a letter to the editor in your local newspaper or news journal, which usually published your name. And if they thought your point stupid or ignorant, the letter was not selected for publication.

So otherwise you vented to friends during face-time, that's it.

No longer, with cable, talk radio, entertainment journalism, social media, texting, tweets, e-mails, cell phones, etc. every 13 year old or cranky old man can utter their 'opinion'.

A second explanation my be in the deterioration of respect for rational thought in primary and secondary education. In an era in which "feelings" are more important than fact or reasoning, it wouldn't be surprising to find that mindset having colonized education. If the current state of forensic debate is any indication, we have indoctrinated emotive subjectivism as our dominant method of discourse.

Last, there are other factors contributing to binary polarization. The zeitgeist of our age is identity politics, immutable differences of opposition that cannot be resolved through a good argument. The very existence of "the other" demands mistrust, if not hostility. There is no room for "the other" because its not longer an intellectual disagreement, its a disagreement based on your "privilege" or my "victimization".

So no, there is no cure.