A good article on Truman wrongly using nuclear weapons

[Robertinfremont]

“You know the most terrible decision a man ever had to make was made by me at Potsdam. It had nothing to do with Russia or Britain or Germany. It was a decision to loose the most terrible of all destructive forces for the wholesale slaughter of human beings. The Secretary of War, Mr. Stimson, and I weighed that decision most prayerfully. But the President had to decide. It occurred to me that a quarter of a million of the flower of our young manhood was worth a couple of Japanese cities, and I still think that they were and are. But I couldn’t help but think of the necessity of blotting out women and children and non-combatants. We gave them fair warning and asked them to quit. We picked a couple of cities where war work was the principle industry, and dropped bombs. Russia hurried in and the war ended.”


The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II | National Security Archive




Truman's own words.

That beats the tar out of our objectors words.

 

[vegas giants]

This is untrue. The Emperor did in fact play a prominent role in Japan's elite, and was in fact a driving force on the way to war. He played a far bigger role in leading Japan to war than Tojo, for example.

This I agree with

 

[Robertinfremont]

Yeah, that Vietnam thing worked our real well. Steinbeck said it best with the words he gave to a grower during a farm labor strike: “A communist is any son of a bitch who asks for forty cents an hour when I am paying thirty.” It was a dumb policy that drove leftists who might otherwise have even admired the US towards communism. I did some work with Cuban exiles professionally back in the day. They got it. Also, when a teen in 1960, I worked in a restaurant in NYC with a Cuban refugee, ironically named Fidel. His words: “I hate Castro but the US got what it deserved in Cuba.”

Fidel lived less than a hundred miles from a superpower who had practically owned Cuba, using it as our whore house in some ways. (See Godfather II). For all his considerable tyranny, he never did things the likes of which I learned about Guatemala, El Salvador, Argentina, Chile, etc., through the human rights and refugee work work I did for 20 plus years.

There is a myth among Democrats of the US that communists fared very well under that system.

Let me be frank with all of them. I saw it in operation in East Berlin. It looked like WW2 just ended and the people were hiding somewhere. If a person was on the street, he had a machine gun and was there to prevent the residents from leaving the city.

It was like that where the Soviets imposed communism.

Today a normal Russian is well dressed, owns a private car and the housing change I do not know of. But life for them is very improved. Communism destroys communities.

 

[Oozlefinch]

That's a partly accurate, partly distorted picture. It ignores the actual views of people, the power breakdown, WHY they'd vote 6-0 that way, and so on. The most important fact IMO is how the radical right-wing militarization fanatics took over the country, defeating the left-wing and peaceful factions, and how to defeat them when the war was lost. They WERE defeated after the bombs in August and the emperor's speech, but that doesn't mean it was the only way.

Fine. Name who could have been talked to that had a single bit of power or influence.

As for why? Because they completely believed in Shinto, Bushido, and their right to rule all they wanted through Divine Favor.

This is a culture that is almost as completely alien to most Europeans as Klingons are. This is an entire nation and people that believed they were a "Master Race", descended from the Gods to rule whatever they desired. And that if any dared to actually invade, the Gods would sweep them away.

This is not a "distorted picture", yet you continue on this fantasy that somebody could have been found to talk to.

There were no "left wing" or "peace factions" to talk to. There never were. This is a nation that had always been ruled from a Divine Imperial Throne, and would do whatever it asked. And the early attempts at creating "Leftist Parties" all died in 1909, when Prince Itō Hirobumi, Prime Minister of Japan was assassinated by a Korean Nationalist. This turned the entire nation even harder Nationalist than it ever had before, and unified the government.

You keep mentioning "other ways". Great, give us one that is based in reality and not pipe dreams and opium smoke.

 

[Robertinfremont]

This I agree with

You are dismissed. Lack of name of book.

 

[vegas giants]

You are dismissed. Lack of name of book.

Tell.me about your time as a army clerk. Please!!!! Lol

 

[Robertinfremont]

Yeah, that Vietnam thing worked our real well. Steinbeck said it best with the words he gave to a grower during a farm labor strike: “A communist is any son of a bitch who asks for forty cents an hour when I am paying thirty.” It was a dumb policy that drove leftists who might otherwise have even admired the US towards communism. I did some work with Cuban exiles professionally back in the day. They got it. Also, when a teen in 1960, I worked in a restaurant in NYC with a Cuban refugee, ironically named Fidel. His words: “I hate Castro but the US got what it deserved in Cuba.”

Fidel lived less than a hundred miles from a superpower who had practically owned Cuba, using it as our whore house in some ways. (See Godfather II). For all his considerable tyranny, he never did things the likes of which I learned about Guatemala, El Salvador, Argentina, Chile, etc., through the human rights and refugee work work I did for 20 plus years.

What few recall but I recall well is it was Kennedy that waged war against Castro. I should have got out of the Democrats then and there. I waited until about 1980 to vote for Reagan. best president we ever have had in our country.

Frankly with our power, we should have knocked out Castro in several days. Kennedy knew nothing of how an Army works. Actually in this case, it would have been Marines and they could have wiped Castro off the face of Cuba in a matter of a short time.

 

[vegas giants]

What few recall but I recall well is it was Kennedy that waged war against Castro. I should have got out of the Democrats then and there. I waited until about 1980 to vote for Reagan. best president we ever have had in our country.

Frankly with our power, we should have knocked out Castro in several days. Kennedy knew nothing of how an Army works. Actually in this case, it would have been Marines and they could have wiped Castro off the face of Cuba in a matter of a short time.

I'm sure you would have helped file the paperwork. Lol

 

[Robertinfremont]

Tell.me about your time as a army clerk. Please!!!! Lol

That is in the book you read.

I gather to you a Company Clerk is an insult to our armed forces. Why is that?

 

[vegas giants]

That is in the book you read.

I gather to you a Company Clerk is an insult to our armed forces. Why is that?

You are priceless buddy

 

[Robertinfremont]

I'm sure you would have helped file the paperwork. Lol

My MOs was combat infantry and not company clerk. I did as ordered in fact.

Why do you hate Army company clerks?

 

[vegas giants]

My MOs was combat infantry and not company clerk. I did as ordered in fact.

Why do you hate Army company clerks?

Have a great night buddy

 

[Craig234]

Fidel lived less than a hundred miles from a superpower who had practically owned Cuba, using it as our whore house in some ways. (See Godfather II). For all his considerable tyranny, he never did things the likes of which I learned about Guatemala, El Salvador, Argentina, Chile, etc., through the human rights and refugee work work I did for 20 plus years.

I'd like to hear stories, in a post or thread.

I'll share one I've heard of, for an idea of the type of country we had in the 1950's.

There was a monstrous dictator, Trujillo, of the Dominican Republic. A student there began to research his atrocities toward his Ph.D. He finally fled the country to the US. Trujillo sent word he would pay a large sum to keep the information suppressed, hundred of thousands of dollars today. The student refused the offer, and became a professor at New York University.

So, the dictator turned to his friends in the CIA, and indicated he'd like the professor delivered. Walking on a street in New York City, the CIA abducted the professor, and put him on a small plane, where he was flown to Trujillo. He was lowered into boiling water and burned alive.

The disappearance made the newspapers, and the CIA had contracted a private pilot for the flight. The 23 year old pilot from Oregon recognized the face of the man he'd flown, and spoke out. The CIA murdered him.

 

[Oozlefinch]

For all his considerable tyranny, he never did things the likes of which I learned about Guatemala, El Salvador, Argentina, Chile, etc., through the human rights and refugee work work I did for 20 plus years.

Yea, who cares if all homosexuals were killed. As well as a lot of minorities, and the wealthy.

Ironically, at the orders of the butcher Doctor from Argentina.

Then there is Argentina. You are aware are you not what actually caused the last Junta to take charge in the first place, right?

In 1976, the nation was collapsing. Embezzlement and corruption of the Isabel Peron administration had destroyed the economy, and the government was under pressure from both the Right and Left for her to step down. Now the military then actually had a good reputation from the people, of stepping in, restoring the government, then stepping back again. They had done it twice before.

But this time, on 6 December 1976 she crossed the line., She signed orders offering blanket immunity to any members or units in the Argentine military who "annihilate subversive elements throughout the country". In other words, she wanted the military to go out and slaughter any who opposed her. That was the final straw, the military stepped in and deposed her.

They refused to do that. But any care to guess at what the death toll would have been of that little tinpot Leftist Dictatorette if she had gotten her way?

But I am done with this, and your attempts to try and derail this into areas that are not relating to the topic at hand.

 

[swing_voter]

Let's talk about you and me. I served my country for ten years during one war.


Your turn hero

I don't believe you.

 

[Cordelier]

I'd like to hear stories, in a post or thread.

I'll share one I've heard of, for an idea of the type of country we had in the 1950's.

There was a monstrous dictator, Trujillo, of the Dominican Republic. A student there began to research his atrocities toward his Ph.D. He finally fled the country to the US. Trujillo sent word he would pay a large sum to keep the information suppressed, hundred of thousands of dollars today. The student refused the offer, and became a professor at New York University.

So, the dictator turned to his friends in the CIA, and indicated he'd like the professor delivered. Walking on a street in New York City, the CIA abducted the professor, and put him on a small plane, where he was flown to Trujillo. He was lowered into boiling water and burned alive.

The disappearance made the newspapers, and the CIA had contracted a private pilot for the flight. The 23 year old pilot from Oregon recognized the face of the man he'd flown, and spoke out. The CIA murdered him.

Assuming you're talking about the Galindez case, this is complete and utter bull****.

 

[Craig234]

Fine. Name who could have been talked to that had a single bit of power or influence.

The could figure that out, to the leader disposed toward surrender and contacts for them.

As for why? Because they completely believed in Shinto, Bushido, and their right to rule all they wanted through Divine Favor.

Nope. That's involved in the thinking of the radical right, it's not all of them and the power structure that existed that is relevant to why people who were not part of it would vote that way.

This is a culture that is almost as completely alien to most Europeans as Klingons are. This is an entire nation and people that believed they were a "Master Race", descended from the Gods to rule whatever they desired. And that if any dared to actually invade, the Gods would sweep them away.

Yes and no. It wasn't as alien as you might think when you look at Hitler. Again, you're talking about the radical right militarists, not others, and others included the emperor.

This is not a "distorted picture", yet you continue on this fantasy that somebody could have been found to talk to.

Many leaders knew the war was over. Many did not want to follow the radical right militarists into the nation being destroyed.

There were no "left wing" or "peace factions" to talk to. There never were. This is a nation that had always been ruled from a Divine Imperial Throne, and would do whatever it asked. And the early attempts at creating "Leftist Parties" all died in 1909, when Prince Itō Hirobumi, Prime Minister of Japan was assassinated by a Korean Nationalist. This turned the entire nation even harder Nationalist than it ever had before, and unified the government.

The power struggles between the radical right militarists and their opponents continued after that IIRC; the militarists won. By 1945, there was no organized 'left' to talk to, but there were leaders who were ready for surrender, and the US knew that and who they were.

You keep mentioning "other ways". Great, give us one that is based in reality and not pipe dreams and opium smoke.

Seems like a waste of time, based on your responses.

To just pick a simple option:

Truman could have given a speech in which he stated the emperor would not be prosecuted, but would be removed from government power, and appealed to the leaders he knew existed with terms that would appeal to them. For another example, he could have flown leaflets to the masses telling them the government wanted them all to be killed resisting, but the US would not harm them if there was surrender, to create uprising and pressure.

 

[Craig234]

This is untrue. The Emperor did in fact play a prominent role in Japan's elite, and was in fact a driving force on the way to war. He played a far bigger role in leading Japan to war than Tojo, for example.

Your post is untrue. My comment was about the history of the emperor over centuries or longer, you only commented on WWII. A radical right militarist movement grew in Japan, and defeated its opponents, and gained control. The emperor went along, rather powerless not to even if he wanted, is my understanding.

 

[Craig234]

Assuming you're talking about the Galindez case, this is complete and utter bull****.

Quality argument.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

I disagree. Refusing to accept surrender with the emperor not subject to prosecution did not make every effort.

What Japan asked for was that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power. It was perfectly reasonable for us to reject that request.

Note that this offer came only after both A-bombs had already been dropped.

The evidence says otherwise.

No it doesn't. There is no evidence of any military leader other than Ike opposing the A-bombs before they were used.

I understand you want change the topic from their opinion on the need for the bomb, to how much they actively spoke out against it.

If they held a silent opinion against using the A-bombs, how is that relevant to anything?

I've seen some claims of the US rejecting their offer to surrender with protection for the emperor.

What Japan asked for was that Hirohito would retain unlimited dictatorial power. Of course we rejected it.

And this offer came only after both A-bombs had already been dropped.

But my point was that we did not make an effort to get their surrender on those terms.

Of course. The idea of letting Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power was ridiculous.

We demanded unconditional surrender, and dropped the bombs instead.

Actually no. The Potsdam Proclamation was a list of generous surrender terms.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The disappearance made the newspapers, and the CIA had contracted a private pilot for the flight. The 23 year old pilot from Oregon recognized the face of the man he'd flown, and spoke out. The CIA murdered him.

Once again, a ton of coprolite.

Gerald Lester Murphy is the pilot. He was not a "private pilot", he was a pilot for Compañía Dominicana de Aviación, the official Dominican Airline. He was also known as being in tight with the Ruling Party, having flown around a great many high ranking Dominician officials during his time working for CDA. And there was no "recognizing pictures", like most of his type he stupidly started talking to a great many people that he knew what had really happened, and showed off the bag full of money he had been given by the Dominican government. He was then killed in the Dominican Republic.

The kidnapping was entirely at the request of the Dominican President, and conducted by his own agents. And Jesus Galindez was actually an FBI informer.

This nonsense is as bad as the other claims I keep reading. Take a tiny sliver of a thread of truth, and then blow it into something completely different that confirms to your liking.

Now can we please get back on topic? Not that you are doing any better at keeping that grounded in reality.

 

[Craig234]

A little more reading about the CIA and Galindez.

A New Biography Traces The Pathology Of Allen Dulles And His Appalling Cabal - BSNEWS

 

[Oozlefinch]

Truman could have given a speech in which he stated the emperor would not be prosecuted, but would be removed from government power, and appealed to the leaders he knew existed with terms that would appeal to them. For another example, he could have flown leaflets to the masses telling them the government wanted them all to be killed resisting, but the US would not harm them if there was surrender, to create uprising and pressure.

You are aware of the Potsdam Conference, are you not?

You know, that little meeting between the 3 leaders of the remaining Allied Powers who were fighting Japan? The US, UK, and China. And one of the things that all three agreed upon was that there would be no separate peace, and that all 3 had to agree to any terms suggested or given to Japan.

Why in the holy frack do people keep acting as if this was all the US, I have absolutely no idea. But I am beginning to think that a lot of people are really really stupid, delusional, or so mentally ill that they have absolutely no grasp with reality.

I have had some really stupid debates over this topic over the decades, but this thread is the most bonkers insane one I have ever seen. Most of you seem to have absolutely no idea of reality, and are literally just making crap up as you go.

Hey, how about this instead. We take a time machine, and go back to July 1945. We then get the King of the Moon to drop rocks on the head of the Privy Council, and get the Queen of the Oceans to make us duplicates of all of them! Then we have them take their place, and end the war!

Why not? It makes as much sense as most of the other garbage I have been reading in here for the last 30 pages.

 

[Cordelier]

Quality argument.

Well, it's true... first off, Galindez was a professor at Columbia, not NYU. That's neither here nor there, but it does make one question your dedication to fact.

Secondly, the murdered pilot was in the employ of the Dominican Government and had a history of telling stories of his clandestine activities on behalf of the Trujillo regime.

Thirdly, the story of Galindez being lowered into boiling water, while colorful, is without merit.

Fourth, there is no evidence of any CIA involvement in Galindez's disappearance. I have no doubt that it was done at the behest of the Trujillo regime, but it seems to me they'd be more than capable of doing it entirely on their own and without the involvement of the CIA.

Fifth, the pilot was a loose cannon and had the lips to match. I'm sure once he made himself into a liability that his Dominican bosses would have had no compunctions about disposing of him as well.

 

[vegas giants]

I don't believe you.

Hahahaha.


You sat on the couch big hero


HAHAHAHAHA