A good article on Truman wrongly using nuclear weapons

[vegas giants]

Are you BLIND? I just named one, General Marshall. What's wrong with you?

Yes you named one. I concede that one. I can name a dozen who were against it. If all you have is one then that is all you have

 

[Oozlefinch]

Add some documentation for your claim about the history. Here's yet another article:

OK, fine. I am wrong.

Now provide a single piece of evidence that somebody who had the authority of the Japanese Government tried to surrender prior to 6 August 1945.

No, not these "nameless schmucks" we keep hearing. The name and place where somebody of authority made such an offer.

You are the one that claims they tried to surrender, put up or shut up.

Oh, and the meetings of the Privy Council of the Empire of Japan are easy enough to find. They were the only ones with the power to surrender. Please find in their meetings any mention of their desiring to surrender prior to 10 August 1945. I will wait for that also.

 

[Nickyjo]

What makes you think that if the communists came to power in these countries, like they did in Cuba, things would be any better. Look at all the imprisonments, tortures, rapes and murders the Castro regime committed.

Oh, I see, we arm, support and praise Hitler so we don’t get Stalin. Read the history of Guatemala from the 50s on. Nothing Fidel did matches that in horror.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Wrong on both counts. The direct reason for the war was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The motivation for that attack was American opposition to Japan’s constant atrocities. The US never supported anyone who even came remotely close to being as bad as Imperial Japan, so your quote is meaningless.

Like I said before, you don’t seem to know anything about the Pacific Theater.

Actually, most tend to forget it was much more than just that. Even without the attack on Hawaii, we would have been in the war.

That is because of the Philippines. That was US soil, and a great many who lived there were US Citizens. We were obligated to protect them, just as we were to protect those in Alaska or Hawaii. Even if they had never sent a single plane against Hawaii, their attacks on the same day in the Philippines would have pulled us into the war. Of course that is also moot since Japan declared war against us first.

I always find it funny how so many seem to completely dismiss the service and sacrifice of those in the Philippines. Of course, I am sure that most of those who care so much for "peace" could not care less about the suffering of "little brown people" half a world away.

 

[Cordelier]

You honestly think if the US sued for peace japan would have thought we are weak. Dude they were being crushed. Man that is ridiculous

I didn't say our military was weak. I'm saying they may have perceived it as a sign our will to continue the war as weakening. Just like North Vietnam did. They knew our military strength... but they also knew our weakness was in our will to continue the war.

 

[maxparrish]

The historical ignorance of the 'no A bomb' posters is nothing more than a parroting of long debunked knee jerk new left revisionists and Marxists, discredited by decades of current mainstream histography.

The idea that the US should have communicated to the Japanese that it was willing to permit the continuance of their form of emperorship much earlier would have resulted in surrender is absurd. It is undisputed that the bitter struggle that took place within the Japanese government even after both bombs had been dropped and Russia had entered the war, which STILL resulted in locked decision between militarists and the peace lobby (who even then wanted the Emperor as a form of supreme political ruler) makes hash of the notion that such terms would have been agreed to much earlier.

Use your noggin folks, it's as plain as your face. ONLY when the emperor concluded the war must end regardless of consequences, and was willing to impose his will, was peace achieved.

 

[vegas giants]

I didn't say our military was weak. I'm saying they may have perceived it as a sign our will to continue the war as weakening. Just like North Vietnam did. They knew our military strength... but they also knew our weakness was in our will to continue the war.

No one in japan thought they could win at that point. Get the best deal they could hope for. Give them what we gave them anyway. And the war would have been over

 

[Toggle Almendro]

the issue is simple. If value was placed on human life, you made the effort to obtain a surrender. If no value was placed on human life, you went straight to dropping the bombs.

We made every effort to get Japan to surrender.

Japan refused to do so.

Many of the top American military leaders opposed the use of the atomic bomb including General Eisenhower, General MacArthur and Admiral Leahy. Despite strong objections, the weapons were used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as a demonstration of military might.

Ike was the only military leader who opposed using the A-bombs before they were used, and his opposition was pretty feeble and insignificant.

But why did the Americans refuse their surrender the first time around?
Months earlier American Intelligence had received a negotiation of surrender but initially rejected them. The key reason why the Allied Forces refused Japan’s initial surrender because it was not an unconditional surrender.

Japan made no surrender offers until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.

If Japan was given their surrender terms they would have room to move, but the Allies pushed for an unconditional surrender in order for the Emperor could be prosecuted for war crimes.

The Potsdam Proclamation was a list of generous surrender terms, and it was given to Japan well before the A-bombs were dropped.

Japan flatly rejected our surrender terms.

So, 1. Refuse peace without the right to prosecute emperor.

Japan made no surrender offers before the A-bombs.

Therefore the US rejected no surrender offers before the A-bombs.

2. Kill hundreds of thousands with nuclear bombs over the issue. 3. Get unconditional surrender. 4. Do not prosecute emperor, as originally requested and rejected.

There was no such original request or rejection. Japan's first offer to surrender came after both A-bombs had already been dropped.

Sure was worth hundreds of thousands of lives for that. The people defending it, are the people arguing to treat the hundreds of thousands of lives as having no value.

Mr. Truman had a war to win. He had more important things to worry about than collateral damage.

 

[swing_voter]

Japan wanted to be a colonial power like Britain and France. That's why it invaded China, it was hoping to set up Korea and China as colonies.

America got in the way, so Japan attacked America.


And then got its ass kicked.

 

[vegas giants]

The historical ignorance of the 'no A bomb' posters is nothing more than a parroting of long debunked knee jerk new left revisionists and Marxists, discredited by decades of current mainstream histography.

The idea that the US should have communicated to the Japanese that it was willing to permit the continuance of their form of emperorship much earlier would have resulted in surrender is absurd. It is undisputed that the bitter struggle that took place within the Japanese government even after both bombs had been dropped and Russia had entered the war, which STILL resulted in locked decision between militarists and the peace lobby (who even then wanted the Emperor as a form of supreme political ruler) makes hash of the notion that such terms would have been agreed to much earlier.

Use your noggin folks, it's as plain as your face. ONLY when the emperor concluded the war must end regardless of consequences, and was willing to impose his will, was peace achieved.

We could have got all that with just a condition that there will be no war crimes for the imperial family....which we gave them anyway

 

[vegas giants]

We made every effort to get Japan to surrender.

Japan refused to do so.



Ike was the only military leader who opposed using the A-bombs before they were used, and his opposition was pretty feeble and insignificant.



Japan made no surrender offers until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.



The Potsdam Proclamation was a list of generous surrender terms, and it was given to Japan well before the A-bombs were dropped.

Japan flatly rejected our surrender terms.



Japan made no surrender offers before the A-bombs.

Therefore the US rejected no surrender offers before the A-bombs.



There was no such original request or rejection. Japan's first offer to surrender came after both A-bombs had already been dropped.



Mr. Truman had a war to win. He had more important things to worry about than collateral damage.

No evidence for any of these claims

 

[maxparrish]

Yes you named one. I concede that one. I can name a dozen who were against it. If all you have is one then that is all you have

Name that dozen.
Demonstrate that they were "against it" before the decision was made.
Demonstrate that they communicated so to Truman.

I doubt you can.

 

[vegas giants]

Name that dozen.
Demonstrate that they were "against it" before the decision was made.
Demonstrate that they communicated so to Truman.

I doubt you can.

No you first. Name a dozen that were for it before the bomb was dropped.

Verifiable references only

 

[maxparrish]

No one in japan thought they could win at that point. Get the best deal they could hope for. Give them what we gave them anyway. And the war would have been over

Actually we didn't. The emperor was stripped of his political role, which wasn't what the final acceptance asked for. The era of the emperor as the sovereign head of state ended.

 

[maxparrish]

No you first. Name a dozen that were for it before the bomb was dropped.

Verifiable references only

I didn't claim "a dozen", you did. It's your claim...back it up or retract it.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Japan could've contacted America through one of the neutral embassies at any time.

They didn't surrender.

A big sticking point in the negotiations was whether or not the emperor could stay in power. We agreed to letting him stay in power, but still no surrender.

Actually, it was more than that.

It is true that Japan started to approach nations back in January 1945 in the hopes of ending the war. But they were not trying to propose a surrender, they wanted an armistice.

In essence, a return of both sides to 1941 borders. A pro quo ante bellum. No occupation, no reparations, no demilitarization, any war crime trials would be conducted by their own government. Oh, and in negotiations they might possibly give up Taiwan, and the US would have to demilitarize the Philippines.

They tried to get 3 different Neutral nations to present that proposal to the US and other Allied Powers. First they went to the Swiss, and they refused to even consider making that proposal. They then attempted to approach Sweden, and got the exact same response. Both of those nations knew that it would be immediately rejected, and that by presenting it as a serious offer they would have lost prestige with the side they knew would eventually win the war.

Finally they went with their third option, the Soviet Union. They were their final choice, because even though nominally neutral with Japan, they were a US ally. They presented the proposal to the Soviet Ambassador to Japan, who then said he would forward it to Stalin. That he could make no promises, Stalin would have to make the final decision on where and when to present it. Of course, the Soviets were already closing in on Berlin, and were already expecting to go after Japan once Germany was wrapped up.

But along with the proposal, the Ambassador sent a note stating that he thought that Japan was insane to even propose such a thing. And that it should be rejected and never mentioned as it would affect Soviet relations with them.

And Japan after being rejected by 3 different nations never made a request for an armistice ever again, let alone a surrender. They really were that delusional, in thinking that they could dictate in early 1945 a return to 1941 borders. Including the demilitarization of US soil, as if they were actually winning. A proposal so insultingly stupid that not even the Swiss would present it for them.

 

[vegas giants]

Actually we didn't. The emperor was stripped of his political role, which wasn't what the final acceptance asked for. The era of the emperor as the sovereign head of state ended.

He just didn't want to go to jail. And we needed him to calm the populace. He was still thought of as a god. It would have been a easy concession to make

 

[vegas giants]

I didn't claim "a dozen", you did. It's your claim...back it up or retract it.

So you only have one?


Check the thread. Evidence already posted

 

[Cordelier]

No one in japan thought they could win at that point. Get the best deal they could hope for. Give them what we gave them anyway. And the war would have been over

North Vietnam wasn't going to invade California. They knew that too. All they wanted us to do is stop fighting and get the hell out. For them, that constituted victory. You don't think Japan thought the same thing in 1945?

 

[vegas giants]

North Vietnam wasn't going to invade California. They knew that too. All they wanted us to do is stop fighting and get the hell out. For them, that constituted victory. You don't think Japan thought the same thing in 1945?

At the end of the war there was no danger japan would invade california

 

[Cordelier]

At the end of the war there was no danger japan would invade california

Do you think there was in 1942? Sure, if they had managed to destroy our carriers, they probably would have raided up and down the coast. But do you seriously think they would have actually mounted a land invasion?

 

[maxparrish]

We could have got all that with just a condition that there will be no war crimes for the imperial family....which we gave them anyway

First, there is NO evidence that it was the precondition for surrender. The exchange between the US and Japan made no such promises.

Second, it was not given anyway. In December 1945 Prince Konoe was named as an alleged war criminal by the US and when called to report to American authorities Americans, he took potassium cyanide poison and committed suicide.

Some "promise".

 

[Oozlefinch]

Japan wanted to be a colonial power like Britain and France. That's why it invaded China, it was hoping to set up Korea and China as colonies.

America got in the way, so Japan attacked America.


And then got its ass kicked.

Oh, that goes back much farther than that.

Until the Meiji Restoration, they were a xenophobic and insular power. Having absolutely no interest in anything not on their islands. Then they were shocked at the power of the "Backwards" people of the rest of the world, and jumped into colonial expansion with both feet.

The Boxer Rebellion, the First Sino-Japanese War, the Annexation of Korea, the Russo-Japanese War, the invasion of Manchuria, the Soviet border conflicts. And since the First Sino-Japanese War was so popular, they decided it was time for a sequel with the Second Sino-Japanese War.

All that, in around 50 years. They were late to the party, but they tried to make up for that lateness in spades.

 

[vegas giants]

Do you think there was in 1942? Sure, if they had managed to destroy our carriers, they probably would have raided up and down the coast. But do you seriously think they would have actually mounted a land invasion?

That has nothing to do with the decision to drop the bomb

 

[vegas giants]

First, there is NO evidence that it was the precondition for surrender. The exchange between the US and Japan made no such promises.

Second, it was not given anyway. In December 1945 Prince Konoe was named as an alleged war criminal by the US and when called to report to American authorities Americans, he took potassium cyanide poison and committed suicide.

Some "promise".

Then why not try the emperor?