A good article on Truman wrongly using nuclear weapons

[Craig234]

Craig - They were flying themselves into ships. You had civilians jumping off cliffs holding their babies to avoid surrendering. Talking wasn't going to get them to surrender.

I can understand the mindset - they had never been defeated by a foreign invader.... just like us. If the US was about to be invaded, at what point would you give up?

You're just making it up IMO. Many people had fanatical loyalty to the emperor. That doesn't mean some at the top weren't ready to surrender, as long as the emperor wouldn't be treated like a criminal and executed etc.

This was less about the 'mindset' about an invader than the radical militarism that had taken over the military.

 

[Craig234]

There's no indication it would have worked. Didn't you just say that the Japanese brass feared for their lives if they caved?

I said Hirohito did. Suzuki did also. So, there's a thing called "diplomacy", and "intelligence operations", and they can do things like understand that situation and look for ways to work around it. Happens all the time.

 

[Cordelier]

You're just making it up IMO. Many people had fanatical loyalty to the emperor. That doesn't mean some at the top weren't ready to surrender, as long as the emperor wouldn't be treated like a criminal and executed etc.

This was less about the 'mindset' about an invader than the radical militarism that had taken over the military.

I'm not making up anything, Craig. It actually happened on Saipan.

Suicide Cliff - Wikipedia

Banzai Cliff - Wikipedia

Do you know that we haven't minted a single Purple Heart since 1945? All of the ones that awarded in Korea and Vietnam and Grenada and Lebanon and Panama and Somalia and the Persian Gulf and Iraq and Afghanistan and every other place our men and women have sacrificed since World War II were from the stockpile we had made in preparation for the Invasion of Japan. And there are still plenty more to go before we run out.

 

[Craig234]

I'm not making up anything, Craig. It actually happened on Saipan.

Suicide Cliff - Wikipedia

Banzai Cliff - Wikipedia

Do you know that we haven't minted a single Purple Heart since 1945? All of the ones that awarded in Korea and Vietnam and Grenada and Lebanon and Panama and Somalia and the Persian Gulf and Iraq and Afghanistan and every other place our men and women have sacrificed since World War II were from the stockpile we had made in preparation for the Invasion of Japan. And there are still plenty more to go before we run out.

Those aren't the parts I was saying you're making up, obviously. I didn't say anything about them. I was talking about what I talked about. You're partly right on purple hearts; we have ordered about 34,000 new ones, but some from WWII can also still be given, reportedly.

 

[Cordelier]

Those aren't the parts I was saying you're making up, obviously. I didn't say anything about them. I was talking about what I talked about. You're partly right on purple hearts; we have ordered about 34,000 new ones, but some from WWII can also still be given, reportedly.

Fair enough... so you tell me - what diplomatic channels did the Japanese Government or elements capable of speaking on behalf of the Japanese Government try to open prior to Hiroshima?

 

[Nickyjo]

“Terrorism” my ass. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were major military targets.

Oh, and considering that Unit 731 was in the middle of launching a bioweapons attack on San Francisco whine the nukes dropped(to start nothing about what they did.....well....just about everywhere they conquered), crying about the poor poor Imperial Japanese being “terrorized” is rather ludicrous.

Terrorism is defined in the dictionary as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes." That's what it was about. Kill lots of people for the political objective of *unconditional* surrender, in a war fought over economic control of parts of the Pacific. Why? (In my view, Nagasaki may have been almost worse, as I presume there was no way for Japan to have figured out what had happened a few days prior.)

But the blood lust was up. Before the war, the western world was horrified by Guernica. In less than a decade, we accepted Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki easily. If you had gone to the most vicious Inquisitor, the most brutal Crusader or Islamic conquerer, and told them of those incidents, they would have deemed those impossibly immoral. Our morality could not keep up with our technology.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The entire war was unnecessary. Certainly, the refusal to accept Japanese surrender offers was purely a matter of FDR and Truman's desire for progressive world domination.

And when exactly did Japan offer to surrender?

And please, be specific here. List who they sent this "surrender" to, and what the terms were.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Terrorism is defined in the dictionary as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes." That's what it was about. Kill lots of people for the political objective of *unconditional* surrender, in a war fought over economic control of parts of the Pacific. Why? (In my view, Nagasaki may have been almost worse, as I presume there was no way for Japan to have figured out what had happened a few days prior.)

How is Nagasaki worse? Their main shipyard, and the base that created a huge chunk of their Naval power.

And no, Japan knew exactly what happened. Next to the US they had the most advanced Atomic Weapon program of any other nation. In fact, they were even ahead of Germany in actually creating such a weapon, and only behind the US because they were funding 2 competing programs (1 Army and 1 Navy), instead of creating a single program. They did have all the theory and concepts already worked out, and knew what such a device would do. What they lacked was easy access to uranium ore, and a good way to separate it.

 

[swing_voter]

After American dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki, the Japanese emperor decided to surrender.


The Japanese military launched a coup against him. They were planning on locking the emperor in his bedroom so he couldn't surrender.


They wanted to fight on.


Women were armed with explosive backpacks. The idea was that they would run into American lines and detonate the explosive, like kamikazes on foot.

 

[Oozlefinch]

As I said, they could have made a real effort to try to work diplomatically with the situation to get a surrender, especially when they had all the confidential info on the situation and thinking of the leaders. There's every indication it would have worked.

Kinda hard to do when the last attempt was outright rejected by the Prime Minister, who said it was not even worthy if being talked about ever again. And the Privy Council unanimously rejected it 8-0.

Hell, even with 2 bombs dropped and the Soviets storming through Manchuria and Korea they still could not agree to surrender.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

No, they weren't. They were simply saying all they would accept would be unconditional surrender. The only bone they threw was saying that did not mean the extermination or enslavement of the Japanese people. Nothing about the emperor, no efforts to work with them directly or address the political situation.

Japan's refusal to deal with the US prevented the US from working with Japan directly.

That wasn't the US's doing. That was Japan's doing.

If you disagree, provide evidence.

"Japan's Decision to Surrender" by Robert J. C. Butow, Chapter 5: Interlude in Switzerland

Yoshiro Fujimura tried to bring about negotiations between the US and Japan.

The US recognized that he was acting without authority, but also recognized that his efforts could lead to real contacts with Japan, and actively pursued the contacts that he was trying to establish.

Japan stonewalled the contacts and they went nowhere.

Yes, they were.

Note our above willingness to pursue contacts with Yoshiro Fujimura.

I'm not aware of the US saying one word about the emperor before the surrender. Since you disagree, provide evidence.

I'm not saying we talked about the Emperor. I'm saying we made every effort to pursue diplomacy with Japan.

That's the myth, the justification used.

How many Americans would have been killed by the 20,000 Japanese soldiers killed at Hiroshima had there been an invasion without the A-bombs?

How many Americans would have been killed by other soldiers shipped through Hiroshima had there been an invasion without the A-bombs?

Had the second or third A-bomb destroyed Kokura Arsenal, how many American lives would that have saved in an invasion?

Politically, you're right about the incentives for Truman. I think it largely comes down to not placing any value on the lives of the Japanese people.

Collateral damage is unfortunate, but Mr. Truman had a war to win.

ignore things like the emperor feeling he'd be killed if he pushed for surrender.

How is that relevant to America's use of the A-bombs?

You don't care about other options.

There were no other options. Every possible option was already being pursued.

As I said, they could have made a real effort to try to work diplomatically with the situation to get a surrender, especially when they had all the confidential info on the situation and thinking of the leaders. There's every indication it would have worked.

They did do that.

History shows that it didn't work. Japan refused all contacts with the US.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

The biggest, and one of the most successful acts of terrorism in history. Top that, Osama!

That is incorrect. Terrorists target civilians. The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.

In my view, Nagasaki may have been almost worse, as I presume there was no way for Japan to have figured out what had happened a few days prior.

You presume wrong. As soon as the A-bomb was dropped, America immediately announced to Japan that we had just destroyed the entire city of Hiroshima with a single A-bomb.

Japan had a report from their own people the very next day confirming that the entire city had been destroyed with a single bomb.

If you had gone to the most vicious Inquisitor, the most brutal Crusader or Islamic conquerer, and told them of those incidents, they would have deemed those impossibly immoral. Our morality could not keep up with our technology.

Our morality was just fine. Military bases are legitimate targets. So are large weapon factories.

 

[Oozlefinch]

After American dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki, the Japanese emperor decided to surrender.

Hmmm, almost.

It must be remembered, that the Showa Emperor had about as much power in his own Privy Council as the Vice President has in the Senate.

In other words, he was only there to break a tie if they could for some reason not arrive at a consensus. And that only happened a single time. Otherwise he only sat behind a screen and listened to their debates, never saying a word. And even the day they finally decided to surrender, the first vote was 6-2 to continue the war no matter what. It was only that as the news sank in that 2 members flipped, and the decision was finally passed to Emperor Showa.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

And when exactly did Japan offer to surrender?

And please, be specific here. List who they sent this "surrender" to, and what the terms were.

While we're waiting for his answer to your question, here is my answer:

On August 10, after both A-bombs had already been dropped, Japan offered to surrender if we agreed that Hirohito would retain unlimited dictatorial power. This was their first offer to surrender.

On August 11, we replied that Hirohito would be subordinate to MacArthur.

On August 14, Japan agreed to surrender with Hirohito being subordinate to MacArthur.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Japan's refusal to deal with the US prevented the US from working with Japan directly.

That wasn't the US's doing. That was Japan's doing.

History shows that it didn't work. Japan refused all contacts with the US.

Plus the mistaken idea of theirs that the US and other allies would accept an armistice.

This is where most people fail. Japan was never offering to surrender. What they tried to shop around to different countries was an armistice. Essentially a cease fire, where all combatants would return to 1941 boundaries. With them possibly considering to vacate Taiwan, and the US agreeing to "demilitarize" the Philippines.

They tried to present this to many countries, in the hopes it would be presented to the US for them. The Soviet Ambassador did forward it to Stalin, with notes essentially stating that he thought they were insane to even propose it. They also tried to present it through Sweden and Switzerland, and neither of those countries would forward it to the Allied Powers either.

 

[Nickyjo]

How is Nagasaki worse? Their main shipyard, and the base that created a huge chunk of their Naval power.

And no, Japan knew exactly what happened. Next to the US they had the most advanced Atomic Weapon program of any other nation. In fact, they were even ahead of Germany in actually creating such a weapon, and only behind the US because they were funding 2 competing programs (1 Army and 1 Navy), instead of creating a single program. They did have all the theory and concepts already worked out, and knew what such a device would do. What they lacked was easy access to uranium ore, and a good way to separate it.

I guess that my speculation about Nagasaki was wrong, based on your info.

 

[Oozlefinch]

While we're waiting for his answer to your question, here is my answer:

On August 10, after both A-bombs had already been dropped, Japan offered to surrender if we agreed that Hirohito would retain unlimited dictatorial power. This was their first offer to surrender.

Exactly. After both bombs had been dropped and the Soviets invaded.

And the first rejected response was a bit more than that. They had insisted that not only the Emperor but the Government would not be effected, nor any interference with their National Sovereignty (in other words no occupation, no war crime trials). The response basically said that was not acceptable, but that the Supreme Allied Commander would accept the surrender of the Emperor's authority, and create a new government along with the will of the Japanese people.

Since the demand was for the "authority" and not the person, they understood the intent. That he would not be held, only his authority until the will of the people was made known. And they were secure enough in the knowledge of their own culture to know that the nation would not ask for his removal.

This indeed is almost exactly what you said, but the actual messages and intents were a lot more involved. Their first real attempt on 10 August really was little more than the earlier armistice attempts. They were still thinking they could get by with at least half of their Empire intact, no disarmament, and no occupation.

 

[Nickyjo]

That is incorrect. Terrorists target civilians. The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.

++ That just happened to have tens of thousands of civilians. Hint: these weren't surgical strikes.

You presume wrong. As soon as the A-bomb was dropped, America immediately announced to Japan that we had just destroyed the entire city of Hiroshima with a single A-bomb.

++ If that was the case, I was wrong and withdraw my comment. But why should they have believed us?

Japan had a report from their own people the very next day confirming that the entire city had been destroyed with a single bomb.

Our morality was just fine. Military bases are legitimate targets. So are large weapon factories.

++ So bomb military bases.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I guess that my speculation about Nagasaki was wrong, based on your info.

Japanese physicist Hikosaka Tadayoshi first wrote a paper discussing the potential of Atomic Fission being used for both the creation of power as well as atomic weapons all the way back in 1934.

And Dr. Yoshio Nishina worked with Einstein, Bohr, Klein, and Heisenberg while in Germany in the 1920's. He is the one that kickstarted the Japanese Nuclear Physics programs in the 1930's.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

++ So bomb military bases.

That's exactly what we did do.

 

[Oozlefinch]

++ So bomb military bases.

Hiroshima was the home of the entire command of the Southern Japanese Military District. Not only the "Home Guard", but also the Southern Army. And the largest Logistics base in Southern Japan. This is 2 entire Army Groups, as well as an additional 2 Divisions.

Nagasaki was the major Naval base for the country. The home and place of manufacture for most of their Destroyers and Submarines, it was also where the Battleship Musashi was built and based out of.

Here is a photo of the holding pen for completed "midget subs" after the bomb. The facilities for building such subs and for larger submarines were completely leveled, so only look like piles of rubble. But this should make it obvious how much even this small part of the operation at Nagasaki was producing.

 

[Tigerace117]

Terrorism is defined in the dictionary as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes." That's what it was about. Kill lots of people for the political objective of *unconditional* surrender, in a war fought over economic control of parts of the Pacific. Why? (In my view, Nagasaki may have been almost worse, as I presume there was no way for Japan to have figured out what had happened a few days prior.)

But the blood lust was up. Before the war, the western world was horrified by Guernica. In less than a decade, we accepted Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki easily. If you had gone to the most vicious Inquisitor, the most brutal Crusader or Islamic conquerer, and told them of those incidents, they would have deemed those impossibly immoral. Our morality could not keep up with our technology.

No, it was “about” destroying the ability of Imperial Japan to continue to wage war against the United States and the other Allied Powers. Crying that they were “coerced” or “terrorized” is ridiculous and akin to claim the Allies committed “terrorism” against Germany by kicking them out of their lebensraum and ultimately smashing the Nazis.

The war was fought due to a surprise attack by Imperial Japan, a nation which even in 1941 had already committed a boatload of horrific atrocities, against the United States because the United States refused to fuel their war machine. There was absolutely no equivalence between the Allies and th Imperial Japanese; the United States did not proceed to enslave the peoples of Asia to fuel their own desires, as Japan had during their own occupation. Pretending otherwise is simply ignorant.

“Blood lust”.

If there had actually been “bloodlust” we would have let the people of Japan starve instead of pouring in vast amounts of material and funds to help rebuild. Or we would have launched a conventional invasion which would have killed far more Japanese civilians than died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We “accepted” Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki because all were necessary in destroying some of the most despicable and horrific regimes on the planet, and no amount of second guessing years after the fact can change that.

How is killing far more Japanese civilians in a conventional invasion(because they absolutely would have been thrown into combat by the IJA), or letting untold numbers starve, somehow more “moral”? Spoiler alert— it’s not.

 

[Tigerace117]

++ So bomb military bases.

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were major military targets.

“ The city of Hiroshima is located on the broad, flat delta of the Ota River, which has 7 channel outlets dividing the city into six islands which project into Hiroshima Bay. The city is almost entirely flat and only slightly above sea level; to the northwest and northeast of the city some hills rise to 700 feet. A single hill in the eastern part of the city proper about 1/2 mile long and 221 feet in height interrupted to some extent the spreading of the blast damage; otherwise the city was fully exposed to the bomb. Of a city area of over 26 square miles, only 7 square miles were completely built-up. There was no marked separation of commercial, industrial, and residential zones. 75% of the population was concentrated in the densely built-up area in the center of the city.

Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. To quote a Japanese report, "Probably more than a thousand times since the beginning of the war did the Hiroshima citizens see off with cries of 'Banzai' the troops leaving from the harbor."“

“ Nagasaki lies at the head of a long bay which forms the best natural harbor on the southern Japanese home island of Kyushu. The main commercial and residential area of the city lies on a small plain near the end of the bay. Two rivers divided by a mountain spur form the two main valleys in which the city lies. This mountain spur and the irregular lay-out of the city tremendously reduced the area of destruction, so that at first glance Nagasaki appeared to have been less devastated than Hiroshima.

The heavily build-up area of the city is confined by the terrain to less than 4 square miles out of a total of about 35 square miles in the city as a whole.

The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great war-time importance because of its many and varied industries, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials. The narrow long strip attacked was of particular importance because of its industries.“

Avalon Project - The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

 

[AmNat]

And when exactly did Japan offer to surrender?

And please, be specific here. List who they sent this "surrender" to, and what the terms were.

According to the Chicago Tribune, Japan made at least five overtures in January 1945, offering full military surrender, specifically including the following items:

1. Full surrender of all Jap forces on sea, in the air, at home, on island possessions and in occupied countries.
2. Surrender of all arms and munitions.
3. Occupation of the Jap homeland and island possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
4. Jap relinquishment from Manchuria, Korea and Formosa as well as all territory seized during the war.
5. Regulation of Jap industry to halt present and future production of implements of war.
6. Turning over of any Japanese the United States might designate as war criminals.
7. Immediate release of all prisoners of war and internees in Japan proper and areas under Japanese control.

General MacArthur communicated this to President Roosevelt prior to the Yalta Conference. FDR never acted on the offer as he was too busy consigning hundreds of millions of people to Bolshevik tyranny.

 

[AmNat]

the United States did not proceed to enslave the peoples of Asia

FDR and Truman didn't directly enslave the peoples of Asia. Their buddy Stalin did it for them. I don't see any great moral significance in that distinction.