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A good article on Truman wrongly using nuclear weapons

When I have provided a reference previously I do not feel the need to do so every time but will happily do it on request.



Will you do the same?
 
Contemporary estimates of Japanese deaths from an invasion of the Home Islands range from several hundreds of thousands to as high as ten million.


From your article.


According to your article, the Japanese got off cheap.

Good thing the military leaders agreed no invasion would be needed. The war was essentially over
 
Good thing the military leaders agreed no invasion would be needed. The war was essentially over

Some 400,000 additional Japanese deaths might have occurred in the expected Soviet invasion of Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's main islands


From your article too. lol
 
Some 400,000 additional Japanese deaths might have occurred in the expected Soviet invasion of Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's main islands


From your article too. lol

Do you need to see the quotes again from the military saying no invasion was necessary?

I am happy to provide them
 
Do you need to see the quotes again from the military saying no invasion was necessary?

I am happy to provide them


So from your article:



Some 400,000 additional Japanese deaths might have occurred in the expected Soviet invasion of Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's main islands

A widely cited estimate of five to ten million Japanese deaths came from a study by William Shockley and Quincy Wright;

This implied the two planned campaigns to conquer Japan would cost 1.6 million U.S. casualties, including 380,000 dead.



1. The two nukes killed between 129,000 and 226,000

2. The nukes saved up to 6 million people, most of those Japanese.
 
So from your article:



Some 400,000 additional Japanese deaths might have occurred in the expected Soviet invasion of Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's main islands

A widely cited estimate of five to ten million Japanese deaths came from a study by William Shockley and Quincy Wright;

This implied the two planned campaigns to conquer Japan would cost 1.6 million U.S. casualties, including 380,000 dead.



1. The two nukes killed between 129,000 and 226,000

2. The nukes saved up to 6 million people, most of those Japanese.

What are you missing?


The third choice
 
Yes. Everytime you extract a quote (e.g. from military officers) I'd like to know the date and source.

Can I ever get a reference that you provide?


Will that ever be forthcoming? Lol
 
No actually it's a fact as evidenced by verifiable quotes I posted

That's all revisionist hand-wringing. And none of the people you mentioned were in President Truman's shoes - not even General Eisenhower when he became President was in President Truman's shoes and had to face the same situation he had to face. Every one of those quotations was from someone who could pass the buck. Well, the buck stopped with President Truman.

So point it out for me... it's got to be declassified by now.... show me the critical piece of intelligence that crossed President Truman's desk that could have persuaded him that a costly invasion preceded by a massive surge in strategic bombing was the only possible alternative to dropping the bomb. Because when I research the matter, I find records of meetings like this one on June 18, 1945. It makes for pretty stark reading.
 
That's all revisionist hand-wringing. And none of the people you mentioned were in President Truman's shoes - not even General Eisenhower when he became President was in President Truman's shoes and had to face the same situation he had to face. Every one of those quotations was from someone who could pass the buck. Well, the buck stopped with President Truman.

So point it out for me... it's got to be declassified by now.... show me the critical piece of intelligence that crossed President Truman's desk that could have persuaded him that a costly invasion preceded by a massive surge in strategic bombing was the only possible alternative to dropping the bomb. Because when I research the matter, I find records of meetings like this one on June 18, 1945. It makes for pretty stark reading.

He could have asked any of his generals. Their statements are facts. Truman did not care. The bomb was about Russia not japan.


When the greatest military minds this country has ever known all have the same opinion......listen


What page from your reference is relevant?
 
Can I ever get a reference that you provide?

Will that ever be forthcoming? Lol

If you have had color blindness and can't see the blue hyperlinks to the free book source or articles already provided, or are are unable read the other citations to print/kindle books for some other reason, you're out of luck.

In other words, you already have "references". Do you need them in "7" size font to read?
 
If you have color blindness and can't see the blue hyperlinks to the free book source or articles, or are are unable read the other citations to print/kindle books for some other reason, you're out of luck.

In other words, you already have "references".

Ok buddy. Thanks. If you have nothing then you have nothing
 
He could have asked any of his generals. Their statements are facts. Truman did not care. The bomb was about Russia not japan.


When the greatest military minds this country has ever known all have the same opinion......listen

Read the minutes, Vegas... it'll inform you of the thinking of the top brass - right out of the horse's mouth into the President's ear. They were laying out how they figured how the invasion of Japan was going to go.
 
Read the minutes, Vegas... it'll inform you of the thinking of the top brass - right out of the horse's mouth into the President's ear. They were laying out how they figured how the invasion of Japan was going to go.

This is what you guys do. You cite a 40 page reference or a book and say "well it's in there somewhere". Its dishonest.


I call bs.
 
He could have asked any of his generals. Their statements are facts. Truman did not care. The bomb was about Russia not japan.


When the greatest military minds this country has ever known all have the same opinion......listen


What page from your reference is relevant?

Every page is relevant. If you want to know what was going through President Truman's mind, put yourself in his place and listen to what his Admirals and Generals were telling him. All 45 pages.
 
Every page is relevant. If you want to know what was going through President Truman's mind, put yourself in his place and listen to what his Admirals and Generals were telling him. All 45 pages.

Tell me what is relevant on page 1.


Can I just cite a book and say every page is relevant?
 
This is what you guys do. You cite a 40 page reference or a book and say "well it's in there somewhere". Its dishonest.


I call bs.

I don't care how much of it you decide to read... read as far as Page 2 if you want. You're not going to have to wade too far in to realize how right President Truman was to drop the bomb and try and head this off.
 
I don't care how much of it you decide to read... read as far as Page 2 if you want. You're not going to have to wade too far in to realize how right President Truman was to drop the bomb and try and head this off.

Ok I read to page 2. I disagree with your assessment. Cite a quote from those pages to prove me wrong
 
Used restraint in using such weapons to needlessly destroy cities. If I felt a need to demonstrate them, it could be done without mass killing. I'd like to think I would either have not used them, or used them in a non-lethal demonstration. The Japanese were asking for peace on the terms we eventually met; we should have accepted.

Unconditional surrender, the Japanese refused until the bombs were dropped. Why are you revising history? And many of your statements are just plain wrong and not backed up with much more than your opinion.
 

Yea, read a synopsis, not worth reading.

Look back at the timeline I have posted in here already. Japan was well on the way to their attack long before the US embargos even started. They started their war plans over 7 months before the attack, and was staging life fire exercises with new equipment needed for the attack over 6 months before the first embargo. War was coming, no matter what the US did.

And we know war was coming. That book mentions MAGIC, that is one of the reasons we knew. That is why our 2 active carriers in the theater were working constantly (along with the rest of the fleet) to send planes, supplies, and equipment to our Pacific Islands. The 4th Marine Regiment had been in China for over 25 years, but the threat of war coming and the realization that they would be quickly eliminated and outside of supply in China was why in November 1941 they were moved to the Philippines.

However, nowhere did the Japanese ever leak actual "operational intelligence". In a few instances we had code words, but did not know their meaning. We knew something was coming, and all expectations were that it was going to hit the Philippines, Wake, and Guam. Everything about the "Operation Z" attack was very secretive. Yes, we had a few references to "Operation Z", but were not able to figure out what that was a code for.

And once the ships left Japan, they traveled in complete radio silence. They left port, linked up at sea, then traveled to their attack point without sending any radio transmissions. That was how seriously Japan took their OPSEC. And as the war progressed, we had to get really sneaky ourselves to actually learn what most of their messages actually said. There is much more involved than just braking the code itself. There are codes within codes.

We knew the Japanese Naval Codes, and in early 1942 we started picking up chatter on an upcoming attack on "AF". The problem was, we had no idea what "AF" was. We intercepted hundreds of references to "AF", but were no closer to figuring out the destination of the attack than we were when we first heard of it. Then finally a Navy Captain got smart.

Over a timespan over a week, he ordered different Pacific outposts to send specific messages in the clear. This outpost was low on food, that outpost was low on fuel. And that is how the Navy hit paydirt. In early June Midway sent their message in the clear, their water purification system had broken down and they were low on water. And a day later, an intercept was decoded where the IJN was instructing their forces going to AF to bring additional water filtration equipment.

This was barely 2 weeks before the attack, and we now know the outcome of the Battle of Midway. Which would never have happened even with the broken code, if not for a fake US report that the island needed water.

And that is not unique. Most by now know of the Navajo "Code Talkers". However, even they used a code within a code. They Japanese were actually quickly able to secure other Navajo, and tried to order them to translate the messages. And even though they all talked "in the clear", these captured Navajo did not know the codes so were just as confused at the messages as the Japanese were. Words used such as "tree", "fish", "buzzard", "rock", "pebbles", and the like were used so even if the listener knew Navajo, the message made no sense.

And we have even seen that since then. One famous incident in the Korean War saw a Marine Mortar Platoon low on ammunition for their weapons. So they sent up a radio request that they needed a critical shipment of "Tootsie Rolls" ASAP, the code word for mortar rounds. And that message for forwarded to the Air Force, and a few hours later they were elated when an airdrop was released over their position. The men raced out to recover the shipment.

And discovered that they actually contained Tootsie Rolls. Not the mortar rounds they needed.

And it still continues to this day. As part of my duty while deployed, I had to contact an Air Force unit 4 times a day for a status update. Our only phone connection was "in the clear", so we had a sheet of code words that changed weekly. So when I called I would have to say something like "Lollypop, Grapefruit, Chevrolet, Bicycle". And over half the time they would just hang up, or it would take several minutes to get them to understand they had to get the code sheet and use it. Often times they would just translate my message, and just give me their response in the clear.
 
Unconditional surrender, the Japanese refused until the bombs were dropped. Why are you revising history? And many of your statements are just plain wrong and not backed up with much more than your opinion.

First, nothing there is wrong. Second, I was responding to the question what would I have done - opinion is fine for that.
 
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