A compromise to gun free zones.

[Rich2018]

only after the country has been purged of all criminals and gun banners. Until that happens, people need to be well armed.

Just like in the UK...where there are no criminals ????


Remove the guns and you will remove gun crime.
Just how hard is it for the extreme right to understand that ?

 

[TurtleDude]

Just like in the UK...where there are no criminals ????


Remove the guns and you will remove gun crime.
Just how hard is it for the extreme right to understand that ?

how are you going to accomplish that without getting a few million people killed.

 

[Rich2018]

how are you going to accomplish that without getting a few million people killed.

Persuade them that it is better to hand over their guns rather than face armed police forcibly taking the guns from them.


I don't think I'd have too hard a job telling people that surrendering their guns is better than being dead.


(Yes there are a few lunatics who'd rather die than hand them over...but I'd realistically hope that the deaths of these people would be kept to a minimum...certainly nowhere near numbering in the "millions").


Remember that most gun deaths are caused by legally held firearms (not even counting the number of gun woundings).

I would also think that most people with legally held guns would think that handing them over is the lesser evil to either death or imprisonment.
It worked in the UK...when faced with a choice of handing in guns or going to prison, virtually all guns owners viewed prison as the worse option.

 

[TurtleDude]

Persuade them that it is better to hand over their guns rather than face armed police forcibly taking the guns from them.


I don't think I'd have too hard a job telling people that surrendering their guns is better than being dead.


(Yes there are a few lunatics who'd rather die than hand them over...but I'd realistically hope that the deaths of these people would be kept to a minimum...certainly nowhere near numbering in the "millions").


Remember that most gun deaths are caused by legally held firearms (not even counting the number of gun woundings).

I would also think that most people with legally held guns would think that handing them over is the lesser evil to either death or imprisonment.
It worked in the UK...when faced with a choice of handing in guns or going to prison, virtually all guns owners viewed prison as the worse option.

cities that have demanded people register guns that are no longer legal to own after a certain date have seen less than a 20% compliance rate. Most cops aren't going to put their lives on the line trying to round up guns from people who once owned them legally. SO it will be people like you who will have to do the dirty work.

 

[Rich2018]

cities that have demanded people register guns that are no longer legal to own after a certain date have seen less than a 20% compliance rate. Most cops aren't going to put their lives on the line trying to round up guns from people who once owned them legally. SO it will be people like you who will have to do the dirty work.

So what ?

If you ban guns, you MUST back it up and enforce the law otherwise what's the point of passing any law in the first place ?

Cops will do as they're ordered - in the only recent example I can think of when cops (and the military) were ordered to confiscate guns in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the police did as ordered (granted it was an illegal order but it was executed nevertheless).


I don't know any cops but I have an inkling that being shot is always on their minds when they go to work every day (for those who work in the field).
If asked if they'd be happy to go to work in a society with virtually no guns, I think they'd say yes they would. Their families would certainly agree.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Cops will do as they're ordered - in the only recent example I can think of when cops (and the military) were ordered to confiscate guns in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the police did as ordered (granted it was an illegal order but it was executed nevertheless).

They sure did:

 

[TurtleDude]

So what ?

If you ban guns, you MUST back it up and enforce the law otherwise what's the point of passing any law in the first place ?

Cops will do as they're ordered - in the only recent example I can think of when cops (and the military) were ordered to confiscate guns in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the police did as ordered (granted it was an illegal order but it was executed nevertheless).


I don't know any cops but I have an inkling that being shot is always on their minds when they go to work every day (for those who work in the field).
If asked if they'd be happy to go to work in a society with virtually no guns, I think they'd say yes they would. Their families would certainly agree.

how many cops have you worked with? I'd like a society with no gun banners. Neither one of us will get our wish. but the way the Supreme Court is going, I suspect the legal terrain for the gun banners will become more hostile in the next 4-6 years

 

[Rich2018]

how many cops have you worked with?

Can you not read ?

...I'd like a society with no gun banners.....

People with guns kill people

"Gun banners" don't kill people

You want your guns...you don't care how many pie are killed or are maimed every year if it means you get to keep your guns

You are prepared to tell lies and make outrageous claims about guns rather face up to the fact that guns are a constant lethal menace in the USA


If a toy doll made in China causes a single US child to die due to faulty manufacture, that toy will be banned.
Do you also wish to live in a world where no-one bans dangerous children's toys ?

 

[Maccabee]

:roll:


What part of "gun free zone" are you having difficulty understanding? It's a penalty enhancer, like using a gun in a robbery.

Police officers in the course of their duties (and even off duty at times) are allowed to be armed in gun free zones. So gun free zones aren't exactly gun free to begin with. Besides, my proposal is a new law changing the definition. So really, anything goes.

 

[TurtleDude]

Can you not read ?





People with guns kill people

"Gun banners" don't kill people

You want your guns...you don't care how many pie are killed or are maimed every year if it means you get to keep your guns

You are prepared to tell lies and make outrageous claims about guns rather face up to the fact that guns are a constant lethal menace in the USA


If a toy doll made in China causes a single US child to die due to faulty manufacture, that toy will be banned.
Do you also wish to live in a world where no-one bans dangerous children's toys ?

I'd prefer a nation where gun banning is banned.

 

[Rich2018]

I'd prefer a nation where gun banning is banned.

And dangerous toy banning...where do you stand on that ?


So no matter how many people are killed and wounded every year in the USA, you'd NEVER want to see any firearm banned ?

 

[TurtleDude]

And dangerous toy banning...where do you stand on that ?


So no matter how many people are killed and wounded every year in the USA, you'd NEVER want to see any firearm banned ?

this is a gun thread not a toy thread. gun ownership is constitutionally protected. I'd like to see all gun banners declared persona non gratis and treated as pariahs in our republic.

 

[Rich2018]

this is a gun thread not a toy thread....

If your child is killed by a defective toy or a negligent gun shot, they're still dead.

So you're OK with banning toys that are dangerous to children...and that might kill one or two children a year because of say a potential choking hazard.
BUT you're not OK with banning something that kills over 10,000 people (including children) per year?

Can you really not see a double standard in banning dangerous toys and guns ?



I know what you're going to say at this point, would I ban kitchen knives and cars. And of course no I wouldn't because they're as safe as we can make them and no safer alternative is available for something that is needed.

Privately owned firearms are not needed.
Though you could make a special case for shotguns being used for vermin/pest control by farmers etc.

....gun ownership is constitutionally protected....

We've discussed this before, in order to ban guns you need to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

This requires another amendment to the Constitution so no, under these circumstances gun ownership would NOT be constitutionally protected.

...I'd like to see all gun banners declared persona non gratis and treated as pariahs in our republic.

Getting too close huh ?

Would you also like to see people who wish to ban potentially dangerous toys treated as pariahs ?
If no, why not ?

 

[TurtleDude]

If your child is killed by a defective toy or a negligent gun shot, they're still dead.

So you're OK with banning toys that are dangerous to children...and that might kill one or two children a year because of say a potential choking hazard.
BUT you're not OK with banning something that kills over 10,000 people (including children) per year?

I know what you're going to say at this point, would I ban kitchen knives and cars. And of course no I wouldn't because they're as safe as we can make them and no safer alternative is available for something that is needed.

Privately owned firearms are not needed.
Though you could make a special case for shotguns being used for vermin/pest control by farmers etc.




Can you really not see a double standard in banning dangerous toys and guns ?




gun ownership is constitutionally protected. I'd like to see all gun banners declared persona non gratis and treated as pariahs in our republic.

no and you confuse the two. those toys are dangerous to those who use them. guns are not

 

[Rich2018]

no and you confuse the two. those toys are dangerous to those who use them. guns are not

I edited my last post before you posted this.


But no, no confusion.

How can you says that guns are NOT dangerous when they kill over 10,000 people in the USA per year ???


Boy accidentally shoots dead his mom in a Wal-Mart:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-2-accidentally-shoots-kills-mom-idaho-walmart-n277071


Pretty damn dangerous to me !!!

 

[TurtleDude]

I edited my last post before you posted this.


But no, no confusion.

How can you says that guns are NOT dangerous when they kill over 10,000 people in the USA per year ???

you are confusing the two different types of "dangerous"

stuff I worry about is stuff that has a high probability of hurting YOU if you use it correctly

not stuff that I can hurt someone else with If I intend to do so.

 

[Rich2018]

you are confusing the two different types of "dangerous"...

LMAO

How many types of "dangerous" are there ?

Danger: A hazard to health and or life.

...stuff I worry about is stuff that has a high probability of hurting YOU if you use it correctly

not stuff that I can hurt someone else with If I intend to do so.

You mean guns...guns can hurt and/or kill you if used correctly by the gunman.

Guns can also hurt/kill you or family members and friends because of negligent use...it happens every day.


Are you arguing for everyone to be banned from having guns but you now ?


I mean how do you know which guns may be used against you or someone you know in the future ?

 

[TurtleDude]

LMAO

How many types of "dangerous" are there ?

Danger: A hazard to health and or life.




You mean guns...guns can hurt and/or kill you if used correctly by the gunman.

Guns can also hurt/kill you or family members and friends because of negligent use...it happens every day.


Are you arguing for everyone to be banned from having guns but you now ?


I mean how do you know which guns may be used against you or someone you know in the future ?

I cannot help it if you are confused

guns if used properly are not dangerous to the user

defective toys are

guns ARE dangerous when used against a target-that is one of their purposes
Toys that are dangerous have no utility. Guns that are NOT dangerous don't either

its really a simple concept to those of us who aren't trying to spew a dishonest narrative trying to support the idiotic desire to ban guns in a society where the laws prevent that and the facts do as well.

 

[Rich2018]

I cannot help it if you are confused....

Well you could state what you mean more clearly.

...guns if used properly are not dangerous to the user...

Sadly that's a big "IF"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States


I posted this link on the other thread we're debating on.


Guns kill and maim thousands of people per year because of negligent use...let alone illegal use.

And you think that being around guns isn't dangerous ?

The figures would contradict you.

....defective toys are...

I'm sure that point in lost on the parents of the deceased children


Dangerous toys should be banned
But as figures show, well made guns are even more dangerous than all the imported plastic toys from China


It doesn't matter if something is dangerous because of shoddy manufacture or poor design...or if the potential for it to be used incorrectly is high.

It's still a hazard to life and limb.

....guns ARE dangerous when used against a target-that is one of their purposes...

That is THE purpose of them.

So why would you want things in society that are designed to kill you ?

 

[TurtleDude]

Well you could state what you mean more clearly.




Sadly that's a big "IF"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States


I posted this link on the other thread we're debating on.


Guns kill and maim thousands of people per year because of negligent use...let alone illegal use.

And you think that being around guns isn't dangerous ?

The figures would contradict you.




I'm sure that point in lost on the parents of the deceased children


Dangerous toys should be banned
But as figures show, well made guns are even more dangerous than all the imported plastic toys from China


It doesn't matter if something is dangerous because of shoddy manufacture or poor design...or if the potential for it to be used incorrectly is high.

It's still a hazard to life and limb.




That is THE purpose of them.

So why would you want things in society that are designed to kill you ?

why would I want to be disarmed when there are people out there who want to harm me and other honest people and who will be armed no matter what stupid laws you try to pass?

 

[Rucker61]

why would I want to be disarmed when there are people out there who want to harm me and other honest people and who will be armed no matter what stupid laws you try to pass?

If someone whose sole purpose is to ban private ownership in the US, there's really nothing to discuss with them. They can just try all they want to. I think that Mr. Norcross should head over to Atlanta and start confiscating guns from those who already can't legally own them, using these arguments. It will be an interesting and short philosophical discussion.

 

[Rich2018]

If someone whose sole purpose is to ban private ownership in the US, there's really nothing to discuss with them. They can just try all they want to. I think that Mr. Norcross should head over to Atlanta and start confiscating guns from those who already can't legally own them, using these arguments. It will be an interesting and short philosophical discussion.

I think Mr Rucker should go into his local town and confiscate all illegally held guns...I mean I assume he has a problem with people having guns that they're banned from having ?


Or am I wrong...is he OK with any felon having any guns he/she wants ?

 

[Rich2018]

why would I want to be disarmed when there are people out there who want to harm me and other honest people and who will be armed no matter what stupid laws you try to pass?

Because you don't need a gun to protect yourself


You're just parroting this as an excuse to hang on to your precious guns.


People in the UK suffer way less gun deaths proportionately that Americans do...yet they are disarmed.
How do you explain that ?

 

[TurtleDude]

Because you don't need a gun to protect yourself


You're just parroting this as an excuse to hang on to your precious guns.


People in the UK suffer way less gun deaths proportionately that Americans do...yet they are disarmed.
How do you explain that ?

where do you get off saying such crap

I shot a mugger-that alone destroys your idiotic nonsense.

I get it that you hate freedom

I get it that you have zero use for millions upon millions of recreational hours spent each year by honest law abiding Americans enjoying gun uses : and your desire to deprive them of that

I really don't care what you want and I don't care what causes your hatred.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Because you don't need a gun to protect yourself.

I've used a gun to defend myself 4 times. You speak of what you do not know.