2018 Pisa Scores- USA 31st in the World for Education. Might IQ averages Explain Why?

[Drawdown]

I understand that is one of the many criticisms of Pisa, yet I would offer the fact that the same Asian countries top the list year after year, as well as a few Nordic countries. I hear just about everyone griping about Americans becoming dumber, regardless of political affiliation. So it's something that people are intuitively grasping, and data seems to validate. America was 1st in high school graduation rates, and near the top in college graduates only 40-50 years ago, and that too has fallen.

U.S. Education Slipping in Ranks Worldwide, Earns Poor Grades on CFR Scorecard | Council on Foreign Relations

There was an experiment done that concluded America's students weren't dumb, just lazy. More specifically when students were paid $25 in a sample PISA test and a dollar was taken away for each wrong answer, their scores were much higher than on the same sample test given to students not receiving the $25.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

How much money do we spend per student compared to other countries?

Money spent does not mean it is being effectively used. Are you in the America hating camp with the OP that we're just intrinsically dumber than everyone else and this shouldn't try to improve our education in order to be competitive in the modern economy?

 

[Drawdown]

Money spent does not mean it is being effectively used. Are you in the America hating camp with the OP that we're just intrinsically dumber than everyone else and this shouldn't try to improve our education in order to be competitive in the modern economy?

America is fine for the most part as far as smarts. Our public education is just becoming more stratified. We have a lot of schools that can kick down the front door of any test put in front of them. We have others that are some combination of baby-sitter and or Pre-Prison.

 

[truthatallcost]

America is fine for the most part as far as smarts. Our public education is just becoming more stratified. We have a lot of schools that can kick down the front door of any test put in front of them. We have others that are some combination of baby-sitter and or Pre-Prison.

France is in the same boat. While reading through the materials of this year's Pisa, I read that 50% of French students complain that they can't concentrate in class due to excessive noise, and chaotic behavior. I don't have to wonder who those 50% are.

 

[truthatallcost]

It is 100% about our piss poor education system. IQ tests do not test your intrinsic intelligence independent of your education.

I can't believe the OP's argument is so stupid and America hating that he's actually claiming we're just intrinsically dumber than 30 other countries therefore we shouldn't try to improve our objectively sagging educational standards.

If I really hated America I would do what you're doing- turn a blind eye to American children falling behind, blame 'institutional fill in the blank with a form of discrimination', and go back to not caring.

How are we going to raise IQs and Pisa scores? We already spend more money on education than any other country on earth.

 

[Port & Starboard]

France is in the same boat. While reading through the materials of this year's Pisa, I read that 50% of French students complain that they can't concentrate in class due to excessive noise, and chaotic behavior. I don't have to wonder who those 50% are.

A good many American schools have the same problem.

The Violence You Don't See - Educational Leadership

Failing public schools should be blamed on out-of-control kids

I don't blame the kids as much as I do the environment they have to live in outside of school. They bring this **** into the schools with them. Some of the inner city kids today are already starting with 2 strikes against them before they ever get to class.

I was 1 of 18 white kids attending the Roger Walcott school in Mattapan Mass in 1970 after I moved there from Roxbury.. The classrooms, hallways, and yard were a never ending beat down of some kids by the punks & gangs that ruled the grounds. The teachers there were 8 parts referee and 2 parts teacher. I lasted 3 months, and never went back, and ended up spending quite a bit of time in Youth Detention as a result.

We owe our kids better than this. Society needs to wake up.

 

[code1211]

As a non Yank I would say that Americans are not more stupid - just less intelligent. If you require evidence look at the large numbers of Creationists in the US, a sub-species all but extinct elsewhere in the civilised world.

That's very interesting.

I am not a scientist. Liberal Arts Degree here. Still, I am very interested in science and am impressed that the various Science Channels are able to "dumb down" the presentation of complex ideas enough for the unwashed to grasp.

Scientists seem to think that the Universe, if there is only one, poofed into its current expanding form about 14+billion years ago.

Prior to the time when a Catholic Priest expressed the idea of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, the visible universe was thought to be the whole Universe.

Now, There is a pretty wide consensus among Scientists that there is also Dark matter and Dark Energy which we cannot experience in any way, but which is evident as visible stuff reacts to it.

Further, to have reached the current size of the visible universe, the expansion, now expanding at a rate less than the speed of light, had to have expanded FASTER than the speed of light at some point in the past.

That point was likely immediately after the Big Bang. They explain it by saying that objects were not moving through space, but that space was expanding.

Our scientists seem to think that moving faster than the speed of light is not possible. However, it had to happen or the universe could not be what is observed today.

Our Scientists also think that the visible universe is only 10% to 15% od the whole universe. Again assuming only one Universe.

So, according to the story in Genesis, God says "Let there be light". At the time, prior to the Big Bang, there was no Visible Universe. That is, no LIGHT. After the Big Bang, there was light.

In a very literal sense, our scientists have given foundation to the Creationist myth (including violations of the laws of physics) with the today's scientific consensus regarding creation as it unfolded following the Big Bang.

Apparently, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth... than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

My apologies to all scientists and to Shakespeare.

 

[Moonglow]

That we lead the world in advancement is not due to H1B workers and green card holders. Another of the criticisms with this ranking in particular is that the curriculum in America runs at a different pace than some of these countries where people often matriculate at 16 instead of 18 so our students are just starting to deep dive into say geometry or trig at that age and those students have already had what they are going to get in the way of math education. I read that last time england did very poorly on reading and the targeted test students in the schools tested weren't even given a reading examination. Their reading skills were inferred from their performance on the math and science tests they did take.

Really? I was in a store and they had two liter bottles of Dr. Pepper on sale and after the coupon the prices was .75 cents. When the items went through the scanner the clerk didn't notice the prices was not reflecting the coupon price I notified her of the discrepancy, so she called management, a young man came to the register and couldn't figure out how much 4 x .75 cents added up to. I was a grocery clerk at 15 and had to do the prices of veggie weights in my mind and the taxes applied to the subtotal...Yet they would not hire me for a management position at a grocery store nowadays...

 

[code1211]

You're not showing concern, you're just arguing that Americans are intrinsically dumber than people from other countries and that's why we're under performing. You're doing anything you can to refuse to acknowledge that it might be our fault. That's not concern, it's utter neglect.

Raising the bar for who can be a teacher and what they're paid would be a starter. The quality of the teachers often define the quality of the education. Work on reducing the tremendous disparity in education quality between rural and city schools. Putting more value on math, science and engineering because it's the future and other countries are starting to crush us in it. A college system based on merit instead of who's mommy and daddy have more money.

With respect, the teachers in K-12 schools that are not employed in Public Schools are paid less than their Public School Brethern. The outcomes they produce are superior. Wage rates are not the Critical Success Indicator.

Financial outlays per student in the US are almost always in the top five internationally. Outcomes are routinely near the 30th place internationally. Financial outlays per student are not the Critical Success Indicator.

In the 70's, when the Big 3 Auto Makers were manufacturing over priced, crap quality rolling dog turds, the Japanese auto workers were paid less than their UAW Counter parts and producing quality. Wage rates were not the CSI.

In passing, auto workers employed by American factories producing "foreign" nameplates were paid less than the traditional Big 3 nameplates and were out producing them in terms of quality, quantity and process improvement.

Educating children is not a single event, heroic performance of a single genius individual. It is the result of a process conducted in a rational, pre-planned procession of instruction.

Within this process as in all processes, there will be superior performers and inferior performers. Best Practices should save to improve the outcomes of the inferior performers.

Any process can be defined, assessed for effectiveness and improved on a continuous basis. That is a fact.

Merely spending more on a system that has already proven to be criminally insufficient without addressing methods to improve is not the answer.

All your prescription will provide is a much higher cost to maintain the same insufficient system that will graduate students undereducated to the same insufficient degree.

 

[Drawdown]

Really? I was in a store and they had two liter bottles of Dr. Pepper on sale and after the coupon the prices was .75 cents. When the items went through the scanner the clerk didn't notice the prices was not reflecting the coupon price I notified her of the discrepancy, so she called management, a young man came to the register and couldn't figure out how much 4 x .75 cents added up to. I was a grocery clerk at 15 and had to do the prices of veggie weights in my mind and the taxes applied to the subtotal...Yet they would not hire me for a management position at a grocery store nowadays...

Obviously they wouldn't. Clerk's need a manager's key to do a price override generally and the manager doesn't need to know how much 4 times 75 cents adds up to as they would have to do the price override per item. The problem with that is that they do it at the point of sell and not on the whole system so everybody who doesn't noticed gets screwed. Our local Food Lion is rather infamous for prices at the register not matching the advertised or sale prices. Unless you call them on it, the computer will rob you all day long.

 

[Moonglow]

Obviously they wouldn't. Clerk's need a manager's key to do a price override generally and the manager doesn't need to know how much 4 times 75 cents adds up to as they would have to do the price override per item. The problem with that is that they do it at the point of sell and not on the whole system so everybody who doesn't noticed gets screwed. Our local Food Lion is rather infamous for prices at the register not matching the advertised or sale prices. Unless you call them on it, the computer will rob you all day long.

If a person can't figure out what 4 x .75 is they don't need to be in management.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

For a variety of reasons. The Chinese believe that American schools are better than Chinese schools, and that their children will have an advantage in the job market if they are familiar with American culture. The Chinese government helps fund Chinese students who study abroad, because it can be beneficial strategically. At the collegiate level, American universities carry prestige and respect worldwide. A degree from Harvard, Yale, or Stanford will get you in the door faster than a degree from many foreign colleges.

And top US universities are easier to get into then the top Chinese ones. The top three Chinese universities have hundreds of thousands of top ranked people apply, as opposed to tens of thousands for the top US universities. Of which of course there are a lot more which have a higher degree of respect than universities in tier two Chinese cities

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

With respect, the teachers in K-12 schools that are not employed in Public Schools are paid less than their Public School Brethern. The outcomes they produce are superior. Wage rates are not the Critical Success Indicator.

Financial outlays per student in the US are almost always in the top five internationally. Outcomes are routinely near the 30th place internationally. Financial outlays per student are not the Critical Success Indicator.

In the 70's, when the Big 3 Auto Makers were manufacturing over priced, crap quality rolling dog turds, the Japanese auto workers were paid less than their UAW Counter parts and producing quality. Wage rates were not the CSI.

In passing, auto workers employed by American factories producing "foreign" nameplates were paid less than the traditional Big 3 nameplates and were out producing them in terms of quality, quantity and process improvement.

Educating children is not a single event, heroic performance of a single genius individual. It is the result of a process conducted in a rational, pre-planned procession of instruction.

Within this process as in all processes, there will be superior performers and inferior performers. Best Practices should save to improve the outcomes of the inferior performers.

Any process can be defined, assessed for effectiveness and improved on a continuous basis. That is a fact.

Merely spending more on a system that has already proven to be criminally insufficient without addressing methods to improve is not the answer.

All your prescription will provide is a much higher cost to maintain the same insufficient system that will graduate students undereducated to the same insufficient degree.

Private schools are able to pick and choose which students they accept generally. That means they can and often do get students from families that do place importance on education, allowing for better scores, not because of the better education but because they have better students


The north west part of Calgary has a high level of Chinese Canadians/immigrants. Those families tend to place a high level of importance on education, so they chose a school district with the best scores, which because the students are focused, ensures the school does well, ensuring it attracts high level students. Despite being in the same school system, with the same quality of teachers with the same curriculum. A self reinforcing cycle

 

[Outlook]

Money spent does not mean it is being effectively used. Are you in the America hating camp with the OP that we're just intrinsically dumber than everyone else and this shouldn't try to improve our education in order to be competitive in the modern economy?

I simply asked a question. I didn’t realize you would get so emotional.
I looked it up. The US spends $11,392 per student on average. Some states spend more others less.

 

[truthatallcost]

Money spent does not mean it is being effectively used. Are you in the America hating camp with the OP that we're just intrinsically dumber than everyone else and this shouldn't try to improve our education in order to be competitive in the modern economy?

You're in Germany, which hasn't fully seen its IQ average plummet from cultural enrichment yet, but it will happen. So please refrain from offering your ersatz patriotism on this thread, when you'll be back to bashing Americans in future threads, per the norm.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Money spent does not mean it is being effectively used. Are you in the America hating camp with the OP that we're just intrinsically dumber than everyone else and this shouldn't try to improve our education in order to be competitive in the modern economy?

That (bolded above) is precisely the problem with much of our public spending.

 

[truthatallcost]

That (bolded above) is precisely the problem with much of our public spending.

Precisely. We spend more than any other nation on healthcare too, yet health outcomes are on the decline for many. The quality of healthcare and education is what counts, and smaller countries like Finland and Norway do much better at maintaining quality.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

You're in Germany, which hasn't fully seen its IQ average plummet from cultural enrichment yet, but it will happen. So please refrain from offering your ersatz patriotism on this thread, when you'll be back to bashing Americans in future threads, per the norm.

Haha, now you're trying to blame minorities. Classic white nationalist garbage.

 

[truthatallcost]

Haha, now you're trying to blame minorities. Classic white nationalist garbage.

You finally responded to one of my comments. Well done Rabid, now go enjoy your white country, you champion of diversity you. :mrgreen:

 

[ttwtt78640]

Precisely. We spend more than any other nation on healthcare too, yet health outcomes are on the decline for many. The quality of healthcare and education is what counts, and smaller countries like Finland and Norway do much better at maintaining quality.

Hmm... could that (bolded above) possibly be due to obesity, drug abuse and a lack of exercise?

 

[truthatallcost]

Hmm... could that (bolded above) possibly be due to obesity, drug abuse and a lack of exercise?

Those things certainly play a part, but medical errors actually kill more Americans every year than any one of those things individually.

Medical errors third-leading cause of death in America

A few years back, I went to the emergency room for a non-life threatening symptom. The physician's assistant gave me two prescriptions that were supposed to be given to an elderly woman who was being treated in the cubicle next to me. When I got home, I researched the drugs I'd been given by mistake, and one of them could have killed me if I'd taken it. We do quantity quite well in America, many times while sacrificing quality.

 

[marke]

For me most interesting thing is that why Canada is much better than US ? Population in US is more diverse, schools are arranged differently and some other things? I'm a bit shocked about Sweden, I didn't know how much it's behind other Nordic countries.

Sweden has a reputation for low moral standards. Maybe that has something to do with low test scores.

 

[FinnFox]

Sweden has a reputation for low moral standards. Maybe that has something to do with low test scores.

Where you're getting that low moral standards? I haven't heard anything about that and I live next to Sweden. US has same standards then? (if you look at results)

 

[truthatallcost]

Sweden has a reputation for low moral standards. Maybe that has something to do with low test scores.

I wasn't aware of low moral standards in Sweden. They're known for having the most egalitarian society in the world.

 

[marke]

I wasn't aware of low moral standards in Sweden. They're known for having the most egalitarian society in the world.

The truth about Sweden is apparently not what is often told.

The Swedish Media Massage (The disturbing truth about Sweden’s moral decay)