20 feet - defense

[Lursa]

That doesn't make sense if each environment has different constraints. As many wise men note, you carry a handgun only because carrying a rifle or shotgun is impractical or unrealistic.

Out in public, if it's not within self-defense distances, I dont plan to engage at all. I'm retreating.

 

[Lursa]

Try targets that shoot back instead

Throw away response. Where did you get that training?

Did you actually see combat and fire your weapon? (And that's not 'training)

 

[Wayne Jr]

Throw away response. Where did you get that training?

Did you actually see combat and fire your weapon? (And that's not 'training)

Fort Benning. Simunitions and live targets actively trying to take you down teach you a few things paper plates don't. Even Combat Lifesaver certification ends with chalk rounds being fired at you, and from you to live enemy. Good times.

And yes I was in some heat overseas. Nothing too hary but my targets were shooting back. I don't think paper plates shoot back. It changes your mindset.

I'm not saying IDPA training is worthless, just that it prepars you for a game, not life and death.

 

[Lursa]

Fort Benning. Simunitions and live targets actively trying to take you down teach you a few things paper plates don't. Even Combat Lifesaver certification ends with chalk rounds being fired at you, and from you to live enemy. Good times.

And yes I was in some heat overseas. Nothing to hary but my targets were shooting back. I don't think paper plates shoot back. It changes your mindset.

You can do all that simunitions stuff as a civilian. I thought you really meant live fire. :roll:

Besides, paintball hurts worse. Even with sweats and jeans. We did it for a bachelorette party. Indoors, close quarters, mazes.

We all lifted up our skirts and sleeves and had our pic taken together at the wedding the next day to show our bruises.

 

[Wayne Jr]

You can do all that simunitions stuff as a civilian. I thought you really meant live fire. :roll:

"Live fire" doesn't neccesseraly mean "lethal rounds", sorry for the confusion. We used our actual M4s but with a special BCG to fire the plastic rounds. Goddamed jam-o-matics but that's also good training.

Besides, paintball hurts worse. Even with sweats and jeans. We did it for a bachelorette party. Indoors, close quarters, mazes.

Oh, I strongly disagree, simunitions and marker rounds suck way worse than paintball, but pain is relative so it's just my opinion.

We all lifted up our skirts and sleeves and had our pic taken together at the wedding the next day to show our bruises.

Topic aside that's going to be a great wedding memory forever

 

[TurtleDude]

I don't think anyone said that, so, no worries


If you actually thought rifles were superior then you would have pulled one out of your car before walking blindly into a dark back ally

And the mere fact of open carrying a firearm would have prevented you from being assaulted in the first place. You chose to look like a victim, you got treated like a victim, and now you disgustingly flaunt your victim status as a credential. That's was Leftists do.

What stupidity. I lived in an area where one could not carry a loaded rifle in their car and I had walked from a corner grocery store to where I lived. Try again and your silly attempts to undermine my points with stupid "what ifs" that aren't even applicable, are hilarious

 

[joko104]

It doesnt sound like you are familiar with IDPA training. Distances only up to 30 feet, paper plate targets (among other torso/head cutouts), shooting while moving, and changing magazines and in different positions and from behind 'windows,' 'doors,' and other barriers. You use your carry, no modifications (except what you've legally made for your carry).

I dont compete but it's very good training and inexpensive.

And my house defense gun runs exactly the same as my carry. M&P fullsize and M&P Shield. I've also carried the fullsize.

My statement does not contradict any training program. I was commenting on common self defense situation shootings and my opinion of - in that situation - bigger is better - which I contrasted to shooting longer distances - for which more bullets is better (only as a generalization).

Very close proximity defense with a handgun is very difficult to train and difficult to not risk any injury doing so - whether outdoor or indoor. Some training programs more are training outdoors in quasi-military shootout situations. Not many self defense situations involve shooting it out. That does not mean such training is worthless as it trains many skills.

 

[Wayne Jr]

What stupidity. I lived in an area where one could not carry a loaded rifle in their car and I had walked from a corner grocery store to where I lived. Try again and your silly attempts to undermine my points with stupid "what ifs" that aren't even applicable, are hilarious

Hey buddy, you chose to have, and used a handgun. Not a rifle. A handgun. Because you know, as I've said, that handguns are better for CQB by the relatively untrained. I know you like getting all emotional about it, boasting about your awards for shooting defenseless paper targets that can't shoot back and whatnot, but at the end of the day you chose to have, and use, a handgun. Not a rifle. If you thought a rifle was the better option, then you would have had a rifle.

You had a handgun. Not a rifle. A handgun. That proves what I said, and for some reason that makes you mad. Get over it.

 

[TurtleDude]

Hey buddy, you chose to have, and used a handgun. Not a rifle. A handgun. Because you know, as I've said, that handguns are better for CQB by the relatively untrained. I know you like getting all emotional about it, boasting about your awards for shooting defenseless paper targets that can't shoot back and whatnot, but at the end of the day you chose to have, and use, a handgun. Not a rifle. If you thought a rifle was the better option, then you would have had a rifle.

You had a handgun. Not a rifle. A handgun. That proves what I said, and for some reason that makes you mad. Get over it.

So you walk the areas where you live, shopping for groceries with a rifle over your shoulder. Do you ever tire of posting complete nonsense in an effort to try to prove you actually understand this issue?

For all of you out there who actually know something about civilian defensive use of firearms, how many of you walk around stores and your neighborhoods with a shotgun or rifle rather than a pistol? That is what Wayne is arguing. He claims because I was carrying a pistol, that somehow cuts against my view that a rifle or shotgun is a better home defense weapon in MOST cases.,

 

[Wayne Jr]

So you walk the areas where you live, shopping for groceries with a rifle over your shoulder.

I'm not the one who thinks rifles are better. Pull your head out of your ass before posting.

 

[joko104]

Hey buddy, you chose to have, and used a handgun. Not a rifle. A handgun. Because you know, as I've said, that handguns are better for CQB by the relatively untrained. I know you like getting all emotional about it, boasting about your awards for shooting defenseless paper targets that can't shoot back and whatnot, but at the end of the day you chose to have, and use, a handgun. Not a rifle. If you thought a rifle was the better option, then you would have had a rifle.

You had a handgun. Not a rifle. A handgun. That proves what I said, and for some reason that makes you mad. Get over it.

That is really a stupid message. A person can not conceal carrying a rifle. Even if open carry is legal in his state, carrying a rifle in public assures police harassment at best, anti-gunners like you get hysterical and flood 911, and a rifle is heavy - plus more difficult to swing in tight locations. But, then, since you can not grasp the difference between home defense and defense outside in the open around possibly large crowds, you're just arguing to argue with no integrity in your messages. :roll:

 

[Wayne Jr]

That is really a stupid message. A person can not conceal carrying a rifle. Even if open carry is legal in his state, carrying a rifle in public assures police harassment at best, anti-gunners like you get hysterical and flood 911, and a rifle is heavy - plus more difficult to swing in tight locations. But, then, since you can not grasp the difference between home defense and defense outside in the open around possibly large crowds, you're just arguing to argue with no integrity in your messages. :roll:

Turtle and I are in the same state and Turtle claims to live in a rich gun-friendly area. He wouldn't have any problem carrying a rifle.

You say "a rifle is heavy, and difficult to swing in tight locations", and I completely agree. Those are good examples of why handguns are better for CQB.

 

[Wayne Jr]

That is really a stupid message. A person can not conceal carrying a rifle. Even if open carry is legal in his state, carrying a rifle in public assures police harassment at best, anti-gunners like you get hysterical and flood 911, and a rifle is heavy - plus more difficult to swing in tight locations. But, then, since you can not grasp the difference between home defense and defense outside in the open around possibly large crowds, you're just arguing to argue with no integrity in your messages. :roll:

BTW how does arguing for handguns over rifles for CQB make one 'anti-gun'? You aren't making any sense.

 

[TurtleDude]

Turtle and I are in the same state and Turtle claims to live in a rich gun-friendly area. He wouldn't have any problem carrying a rifle.

You say "a rifle is heavy, and difficult to swing in tight locations", and I completely agree. Those are good examples of why handguns are better for CQB.

you labor under the delusion I shot a mugger in Ohio. Ohio didn't have concealed carry 30+ years ago when I was a grad student.

 

[TurtleDude]

That is really a stupid message. A person can not conceal carrying a rifle. Even if open carry is legal in his state, carrying a rifle in public assures police harassment at best, anti-gunners like you get hysterical and flood 911, and a rifle is heavy - plus more difficult to swing in tight locations. But, then, since you can not grasp the difference between home defense and defense outside in the open around possibly large crowds, you're just arguing to argue with no integrity in your messages. :roll:

It proved to me his real goal is posting contrarian nonsense, rather than actually pushing gun rights. People carry handguns because they are more concealable, and allow you do do other things.

 

[VanceMack]

The majority of personal self defense usage of handguns is at a range of less than 20 feet.

While going to combat shooting ranges has merit, if the goal was to match reality the real practice should be in a house more akin to door-to-door searches military training. This also is why a short barrel shotgun or the biggest caliber you can handle is ideal for home defense.

My personal carry firearm (as I've stated, very low firepower lately) is NOT what I have ready for home defense (double barrel 12 gauge coach gun and 45acp). I also carry a 45acp in my vehicle in the event I know my low firepower CCW is not enough (ie sensing danger). Do any of you also consider your CCW gun is NOT your home defense firearm?

Not really...no. Beyond ensuring your family is safe it makes absolutely zero sense to train to sweep your home if you are convinced an intruder is there. What DOES make sense is to secure yourself and your family, take up a defensive position, and call the cops if you suspect your home has been compromised.

But...there is validity to more effective self defense training if you have the opportunity. Train to draw your weapon seated in your car. Train to draw your weapon from concealment. Train to engage and seek distance and cover. MUCH of that training should done with unloaded guns or even non firing trainer guns. Its also helpful to train to identify threats and go into a defensive posture using non lethal means as well as lethal means. Its helpful to train yuor brain to survey every environment and see potential threats and potential weapons and courses of action.

Standing and punching little holes in targets is fun. It can aid in familiarity of the weapon. IT has little to do with defensive tactics.

 

[VanceMack]

That is really a stupid message. A person can not conceal carrying a rifle. Even if open carry is legal in his state, carrying a rifle in public assures police harassment at best, anti-gunners like you get hysterical and flood 911, and a rifle is heavy - plus more difficult to swing in tight locations. But, then, since you can not grasp the difference between home defense and defense outside in the open around possibly large crowds, you're just arguing to argue with no integrity in your messages. :roll:

Well...TECHNICALLY...you CAN carry a carbine rifle concealed...



I have 3 of these chambered in the .40 cal. They fit quite nicely in my day pack.

 

[joko104]

Well...TECHNICALLY...you CAN carry a carbine rifle concealed...

View attachment 67260788

I have 3 of these chambered in the .40 cal. They fit quite nicely in my day pack.

Yes, definitely concealable. Good for quick draws too. :lol:

(Nice setup you got.)

 

[joko104]

Not really...no. Beyond ensuring your family is safe it makes absolutely zero sense to train to sweep your home if you are convinced an intruder is there. What DOES make sense is to secure yourself and your family, take up a defensive position, and call the cops if you suspect your home has been compromised.

But...there is validity to more effective self defense training if you have the opportunity. Train to draw your weapon seated in your car. Train to draw your weapon from concealment. Train to engage and seek distance and cover. MUCH of that training should done with unloaded guns or even non firing trainer guns. Its also helpful to train to identify threats and go into a defensive posture using non lethal means as well as lethal means. Its helpful to train yuor brain to survey every environment and see potential threats and potential weapons and courses of action.

Standing and punching little holes in targets is fun. It can aid in familiarity of the weapon. IT has little to do with defensive tactics.

It theory I agree, but not in general practicality. First, securing the family does really work if a large family. Second, calling the police every time there was a suspicious noise would quickly result in their stop coming since 99+% of the time it is nothing.

Today (actually now yesterday) a few of us went thru a few hundred rounds target shooting. The others brought paper targets while I brought soda cans. Almost immediately everyone found it's a lot more fun shooting cans. Cans usually move and jump when you hit it - so how many times can you hit the same can as it is knocked back and around? How many cans can you hit and how fast emptying your magazine?

Paper targets are more for sighting in a scope or other sights (adjustable iron sights, laser, red/green dot, holo sight etc) - but also for practicing very precise rifle shots for distance shooting. I prefer small, moving targets. If a person can knock around soda cans at 10 yards in relatively quick firing, the person is good enough for self defense. It's not that easy to do with a handgun.

I am not anti less-than-lethal. Firing tazers (though Phaffer is a better brand choice) and less than lethal shotgun shells (bag, rubber/plastic pellets) are also a possibility. We have both setups (Phaffers and less-than-lethal shotgun shells. I load my shotgun for home defense with a non-lethal shell on one side and a lethal shell on the other, with 5 shells on the stock to quickly reload and/or replace how the 12 gauge coach double barrel is loaded. For example, if checking noises outside, I will replace the less than lethal 12 gauge shell with a slug if placed correctly (the most lethal) because the concerning noise may be hogs or otherwise likely to be a "friendly" on a surprise.

 

[VanceMack]

Yes, definitely concealable. Good for quick draws too. :lol:

(Nice setup you got.)

If you need to go to battle and want a carbine that packs a punch....this is a great gun. You can deploy it fully in a second, it takes Glock mags so if you run in your pack with a 10 round magazing and have say 3 30 round mags strapped in the compartment with you its awesome DEADLY accurate like driving nails to 25-35 yards and very accurate to 50 yards and beyond. (frankly...I cant see much more than a blurry black circle at 50 yards but if the red dot is on the target, your round is on the target.

Thats a gen 1 (not mine BTW). It has the Red Lion indexed rail system on it. I went with the standard non rotating rail system on mine with a left and right 45 degree canted mount. Still folds, straight down the barrel you are on iron sights, shift your wrist 45 degrees and you are on a red dot ( that is actually a more comfortable shooting position than the standard grip). My other 2 are gen t2 with no mods. I have a flush mounted 45 angle on one and on my home defense weapon I have a 1000 lumen strobe I picked up used at a gun show. f

 

[VanceMack]

It theory I agree, but not in general practicality. First, securing the family does really work if a large family. Second, calling the police every time there was a suspicious noise would quickly result in their stop coming since 99+% of the time it is nothing.

Today (actually now yesterday) a few of us went thru a few hundred rounds target shooting. The others brought paper targets while I brought soda cans. Almost immediately everyone found it's a lot more fun shooting cans. Cans usually move and jump when you hit it - so how many times can you hit the same can as it is knocked back and around? How many cans can you hit and how fast emptying your magazine?

Paper targets are more for sighting in a scope or other sights (adjustable iron sights, laser, red/green dot, holo sight etc) - but also for practicing very precise rifle shots for distance shooting. I prefer small, moving targets. If a person can knock around soda cans at 10 yards in relatively quick firing, the person is good enough for self defense. It's not that easy to do with a handgun.

I am not anti less-than-lethal. Firing tazers (though Phaffer is a better brand choice) and less than lethal shotgun shells (bag, rubber/plastic pellets) are also a possibility. We have both setups (Phaffers and less-than-lethal shotgun shells. I load my shotgun for home defense with a non-lethal shell on one side and a lethal shell on the other, with 5 shells on the stock to quickly reload and/or replace how the 12 gauge coach double barrel is loaded. For example, if checking noises outside, I will replace the less than lethal 12 gauge shell with a slug if placed correctly (the most lethal) because the concerning noise may be hogs or otherwise likely to be a "friendly" on a surprise.

Its one thing to respond to a noise...but most home invasions or intruders dont sound like raccoons or the odd cat knocking over a pot outside.

The thing is...there are LOTS of news accounts of stories of home invasions and intruders and the response to those actions. People should read them and study learn what others have done that has been successful. That usually entails staying put and having your own 'red line'.

 

[joko104]

If you need to go to battle and want a carbine that packs a punch....this is a great gun. You can deploy it fully in a second, it takes Glock mags so if you run in your pack with a 10 round magazing and have say 3 30 round mags strapped in the compartment with you its awesome DEADLY accurate like driving nails to 25-35 yards and very accurate to 50 yards and beyond. (frankly...I cant see much more than a blurry black circle at 50 yards but if the red dot is on the target, your round is on the target.

Thats a gen 1 (not mine BTW). It has the Red Lion indexed rail system on it. I went with the standard non rotating rail system on mine with a left and right 45 degree canted mount. Still folds, straight down the barrel you are on iron sights, shift your wrist 45 degrees and you are on a red dot ( that is actually a more comfortable shooting position than the standard grip). My other 2 are gen t2 with no mods. I have a flush mounted 45 angle on one and on my home defense weapon I have a 1000 lumen strobe I picked up used at a gun show. f

At the flea market yesterday I saw what I wanted at a super price for a handgun sight. A holographic sight - selectable between green (day) and red (night) for $75. It is a $500 sight. I'm looking forward to giving it a try. I'm BIG on instant-on laser sights on handguns such as Crimson Trace.

I watching for a good used infrared scope.

 

[joko104]

Its one thing to respond to a noise...but most home invasions or intruders dont sound like raccoons or the odd cat knocking over a pot outside.

The thing is...there are LOTS of news accounts of stories of home invasions and intruders and the response to those actions. People should read them and study learn what others have done that has been successful. That usually entails staying put and having your own 'red line'.

I often say "If a person goes looking for trouble, they might be unlucky enough to find it." :lol: Generally, sheltering is the wise choice, but not really an option if people spread out all over the house. Then you have to go to potentially protect the kids.

A BAD reaction people have to believing an intruder/burglar is in the house is to get quiet. In fact, they should get very loud. Shouting out "grab the 45, I've got the shotgun. I think someone's in the house!!" Most intruders want to steal and get away without being caught. If an assassin is after you? You're be bushwacked.

A reason to go "check it out" actually is so everyone stops being afraid. So far it's always been nothing or, if outside, some critter. Then everyone can calm down. When I go out the door at night, the first thing I do is slowly shine a red laser around the property. That'd scare of any sane person off at night. I nearly ALWAYS take a shotgun or long gun. Otherwise when outside 99% of the time I'll have a CCW pistol - rarely unarmed.

In a situation I sense danger I WANT any bad guy to think I'm crazed and will start shouting like I am crazy. It is an odd tactic maybe, but what I WANT the person to do is RUN or at least stay away from me/us. I'm not out to confront, catch or battle it out anyone in a personal situation. I don't give a damn what strangers think of me. If they think I'm crazy? That's a good thing. Same people stay away from crazy people - particularly beggars and bums. I can not count how many times I've raged out at the top of my voice "STAY AWAY FROM ME!" at some beggar approaching me at a gas station. Works every time.

 

[joko104]

Its one thing to respond to a noise...but most home invasions or intruders dont sound like raccoons or the odd cat knocking over a pot outside.

The thing is...there are LOTS of news accounts of stories of home invasions and intruders and the response to those actions. People should read them and study learn what others have done that has been successful. That usually entails staying put and having your own 'red line'.

BTW, I like the folding setup. I'm curious, can it be carried with a sling that way (can you lock it folded?) If so, I might check it out.

I've notices some competitive AR15 shooters will hold their rifle about a 45 degree angle for the close shots while running.

 

[VanceMack]

BTW, I like the folding setup. I'm curious, can it be carried with a sling that way (can you lock it folded?) If so, I might check it out.

I've notices some competitive AR15 shooters will hold their rifle about a 45 degree angle for the close shots while running.

Yes...I have a single point of contact sling on my gen 1. Stowed, you can wrap the sling around the weapon or tuck it in next to it in a backpack.