2 Shot At Louie's On Lake Hefner; Suspect Killed By Armed Patron

[Rucker61]

Obviously one doesn't wonder. That does not negate the philosophical discussion.

In this case, the article states the suspect had exited the restaurant when he encountered the citizen (for lack of a better term). We don't know if the citizen witnessed the murders. Now, before you think I'm jumping the shark here, even someone outside would obviously know a shooting had occurred. The suspect probably has blood on him and is pointing his gun at people. The shot is legit. But what if it was a back shot at a suspect who was not pointing his gun and who had no intention of harming anyone else. At that point, however justified the shooting, it becomes effectively a pointless execution.

Mindreader, are you?

 

[dirtpoorchris]

We don't have much information at this point, but for the sake of discussion... The suspect had exited the restaurant, seems the citizen met him there. The victims appear to be intentional not random. What if the citizen shot him in the back as he was walking away, and the suspect had no intention of harming anyone else?

I'm not saying the citizen was wrong or should have known something or wasn't acting in reasonable self defense. I'm posing an intellectual or philosophical question. What if the man intended to surrender to police?

Again, the point is discussion. The suspect probably pointed the gun at others and or the citizen.

If they see you they may murder you just so there is no witness. Might as well shoot seeing as you just seen him murder people and fleeing. If you seen the murder yourself.

 

[Lutherf]

I agree but personally I would have voted to acquit

Giving him life was more than he deserved, that's for sure.

 

[ecofarm]

I disagree. If I could wave a wand and cause all the violent criminals in the USA to cease to exist It would be a good. I have no use for their existence.

Is that a strawman or merely stating the obvious. If we could magically disappear all the bad guys, why not. But you know more would appear, right?

But I don't support the government having the power to kill them. I oppose the death penalty for that reason, not because I oppose assholes being wasted. That is why I spend so much time (and my own money) teaching good people how to shoot accurately under pressure. If one or two of them waste a violent criminal, its worth all the time.

I don't believe all people are equally valuable. Some, by their actions, are plague upon the rest of us

Death serves no purpose. Defense serves a purpose, and death may result; however, death is not to be celebrated. There's always hope that someone could see the light. When someone does, it's inspiring. You want to throw that opportunity away for, what, revenge?

Your vigilante revenge fantasy borders on unenlightened.

 

[TurtleDude]

Giving him life was more than he deserved, that's for sure.

I believe when someone engages in an unprovoked violent criminal attack against you, you should have a wide latitude of transactional immunity. Now if someone beats you and robs you, and ten years later you see the guy and you catch him and break him on the rack, yeah that would be excessive.

 

[TurtleDude]

Is that a strawman or merely stating the obvious. If we could magically disappear all the bad guys, why not. But you know more would appear, right?



Death serves no purpose. Defense serves a purpose, and death may result; however, death is not to be celebrated. There's always hope that someone could see the light. When someone does, it's inspiring. You want to throw that opportunity away for, what, revenge?

Your vigilante revenge fantasy borders on unenlightened.

your views are rejected and silly. Your attempt to justify the continued existence of violent scum is unenlightened and unrealistic.

 

[ecofarm]

Like I said, it's absurd to assume that someone who just shot two people is no longer a threat. If he shot the people and dropped the gun then using deadly force to stop his escape may have been excessive but the bottom line is that he's still a threat.

Several years ago in OKC there was a guy by the name of Jerome Ersland who had two punks come in to his pharmacy and try to rob the place at gunpoint. Ersland shot one of the punks and chased the other out the door. At that point Ersland good. Unfortunatel for Mr. Ersland, he went back into his store, stepped over the body of the punk he shot, reloaded and then went back and put two more (if I remember correctly) into the punk. That was excessive. There is no way Ersland could REASONABLY claim the punk on the floor was a threat especially after he stepped over him to reload. Ersland, justifiably, got saddled with a murder charge.

Assuming that the "armed citizen" didn't pull some form of "Ersland" then shooting the suspect was a reasonable act.

There's still a larger discussion. A shooting can be justified yet pointless or even the sub-optimal outcome. If that's the case, I'm not gonna cheerlead it. I'm very pro gun and I believe any sketchyness undermines my arguments.

Justified? Probably. Meaningful? Doubtful. Avoidable? Maybe. Cops would have done better? Maybe.

Give me someone stopping an active shooter. There's my poster boy. I'm sure gonna look twice before I get behind any shooting. What if (granted, lightning strike chance) this citizen shot him in the back after he dropped his gun and was walking away. A little more info before I go, "see, good stuff happens".

In the end, I'm pretty sure the suspect got who he wanted and could have been apprehended without another death. Not that the citizen had any way of knowing that or any reason to hesitate. We'll see.

 

[ecofarm]

If they see you they may murder you just so there is no witness. Might as well shoot seeing as you just seen him murder people and fleeing. If you seen the murder yourself.

Of course. That's not the issue.

 

[TurtleDude]

There's still a larger discussion. A shooting can be justified yet pointless or even the sub-optimal outcome. If that's the case, I'm not gonna cheerlead it. I've very pro gun and I believe any sketchyness undermines my arguments.

Justified? Probably. Meaningful? Doubtful. Avoidable? Maybe. Cops would have done better? Maybe.

Give me someone stopping an active shooter. There's my poster boy. I'm sure gonna look twice before I get behind any shooting. What if (granted, lightning strike chance) this citizen shot him in the back after he dropped his gun and was walking away. A little more info before I go, "see, good stuff happens".

In the end, I'm pretty sure the suspect got who he wanted and could have been apprehended without another death. Not that the shooter had anyway of knowing that or any reason to hesitate. We'll see.

the citizen saved the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[Grand Mal]

What part is bizarre? Across the globe there are felonious assaults every day. Sometimes the assailant gets away. This time he didn't.

While it's certainly an uncommon event for most of us I don't see what makes it "bizarre".

I believe you.
To me it's bizarre. What a society- in the 21st century shooting it out in a restaurant and the whole scenario being reported here as good news.

 

[Lutherf]

There's still a larger discussion. A shooting can be justified yet pointless or even the sub-optimal outcome. If that's the case, I'm not gonna cheerlead it. I've very pro gun and I believe any sketchyness undermines my arguments.

Justified? Probably. Meaningful? Doubtful. Avoidable? Maybe. Cops would have done better? Maybe.

Give me someone stopping an active shooter. There's my poster boy. I'm sure gonna look twice before I get behind any shooting. What if (granted, lightning strike chance) this citizen shot him in the back after he dropped his gun and was walking away. A little more info before I go, "see, good stuff happens".

In the end, I'm pretty sure the suspect got who he wanted and could have been apprehended without another death. Not that the shooter had anyway of knowing that or any reason to hesitate. We'll see.

If you don't engage the guy and he walks into the parking lot and shoots a pedestrian while you're deciding if engaging is the "optimal outcome" then what did you accomplish?

 

[Fishking]

2 Shot At Louie's On Lake Hefner; Suspect Killed By Armed Patron - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Suspect walks into restaurant and shoots two people. Suspect is engaged by armed citizen. Armed citizen kills suspect.

Suspect = "bad guy with a gun"
Armed citizen = "good guy with a gun"

Please note, it's not about guns, it's about good people and bad people. On occasion it's also about crazy or careless people.

Common theme = "People"

Fake news. We've been told a "good guy with a gun" is a myth and doesn't exist. I have to shame my lying eyes every time I read something about it happening. It's probably an Alex Jones conspiracy theory report from InfoWars.

 

[ecofarm]

the citizen saved the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You want us to believe your position is about saving money? Don't make me laugh.

 

[ecofarm]

If you don't engage the guy and he walks into the parking lot and shoots a pedestrian while you're deciding if engaging is the "optimal outcome" then what did you accomplish?

As I've noted 10 times already, and to you iirc, that's not the issue.

 

[Lutherf]

I believe you.
To me it's bizarre. What a society- in the 21st century shooting it out in a restaurant and the whole scenario being reported here as good news.

The shooting isn't "good news". The fact that an armed citizen took appropriate action in a timely manner to prevent the distinct possibility of more bloodshed is the "good news" part. It's what good citizens SHOULD do.

 

[TurtleDude]

You want us to believe your position is about saving money? Don't make me laugh.

you want us to believe you actually pretend some violent scum bag's life is worth something? I actually believe you feel that way.

 

[jimbo]

What if the suspect had no intention of harming anyone else?

He won't. Good citizen took care of that problem.

 

[TurtleDude]

You want us to believe your position is about saving money? Don't make me laugh.

btw just think of all the tax dollars we could use for really good things if most victims or bystanders of violent crime, killed the criminals.

It costs up to 65K a year to house someone in a high security prison

 

[TurtleDude]

He won't. Good citizen took care of that problem.

yep, preventative medicine

 

[Fishking]

You know that doesn't hold water intellectually. Death serves no legitimate purpose in and of itself. Death resulting from self defense is justified yet unfortunate.

I wouldn't say that. His point about a significant amount of resources saved is a legitimate purpose unto itself. Two scenarios:

1. Killer gets captured and put in prison for the rest of his/her life = millions of dollars to cage someone for decades

2. Killer gets taken out at the incident = few thousand dollars for administrative police processing of the incident and disposing/processing of the body.

 

[Fishking]

You ask politely and wait patiently in as non-threatening a posture as you can maintain. By all rights you should also make your request in Spanish, French, Chinese, Farsi, braille and ASL just in case the individual you are asking isn't an English speaker.

I don't think he's making the point that the dude shouldn't have been shot. I think it's more of a "We don't know if his intent was to shoot more people or not.", which is technically true in a specious sense. Either way, he was still stopped by a good guy with a gun so it's kind of a minor point/distinction to be made and ultimately unknowable.

 

[ecofarm]

you want us to believe you actually pretend some violent scum bag's life is worth something? I actually believe you feel that way.

Value can be found in any life. There mere fact that society incarcerates instead of executing makes society worth joining. Justice is the stuff that justifies the existence of society. The stuff that makes society worth being a part of. Incarceration for public safety and possible rehabilitation or even redemption makes society worth being a part of. The safety part is nice and when redemption happens it's special. Sometimes it changes us not only as individuals but as a society.

You know what doesn't make me think, "yeah, I wanna be a part of that"? Killing for revenge or to save money. That's not justice.

 

[Grand Mal]

The shooting isn't "good news". The fact that an armed citizen took appropriate action in a timely manner to prevent the distinct possibility of more bloodshed is the "good news" part. It's what good citizens SHOULD do.

Yes, it's what good citizens should do. When they live in a bizarre society.

 

[Bum]

Yes, it's what good citizens should do. When they live in a bizarre society.

I am hard pressed to find a "perfect society"....each has its own problems.

 

[Grand Mal]

I am hard pressed to find a "perfect society"....each has its own problems.

Agreed.
Gun fights between 'citizens' would seem to put a society a few notches lower than perfect. Especially if it's all put in a positive spin.