13 arrested, 4 injured at Portland right wing rally: Police

[cabse5]

lol

OK

You can't make up a definition just to satisfy your politics. At least it's a straw man argument and at worst it's a lie.

 

[Ikari]

You can't make up a definition just to satisfy your politics. At least it's a straw man argument and at worst it's a lie.

That is correct. And fascism has always been and will always be a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism. No matter how much you want it to be something else.

lol

 

[cabse5]

Three right-wingers wanted to commit a mass shooting in three different states this weekend. The el paso shooter, along with the Giliroy shooter were all right wingers. I picked five in the past two weeks, you only got one.

Pol Pot was a crazy left winger who killed over a million of the inhabitants of Cambodia. I don't know how many people Lenin's communist brigade killed in Russia after the fall of the Tsar.

 

[NeverTrump]

Pol Pot was a crazy left winger who killed over a million of the inhabitants of Cambodia. I don't know how many people Lenin's communist brigade killed in Russia after the fall of the Tsar.

Dude, we are talking about modern American politics...

 

[cabse5]

That is correct. And fascism has always been and will always be a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism. No matter how much you want it to be something else.

lol

No. Fascism hasn't always been on the right. Mussolini, who had the black shirted Fasci in which fascism is named was on the left in the mid 1920s in Italy. Better read some history. Better read about Hitler's politics, too. Hitler wasn't on the right. Hitler was a combination of right and left politics.

 

[Ikari]

No. Fascism hasn't always been on the right. Mussolini, who had the black shirted Fasci in which fascism is named was on the left in the mid 1920s in Italy. Better read some history. Better read about Hitler's politics, too. Hitler wasn't on the right. Hitler was a combination of right and left politics.

lol

OK

Whatever you need for your historical revisions.

 

[cabse5]

Dude, we are talking about modern American politics...

Too bad you're cherry picking past results to make your future predictions. You'd make a good climate change modelist.

 

[cabse5]

lol

OK

Whatever you need for your historical revisions.

The historical revisioner is calling me a historical revisioner.:lamo

 

[NeverTrump]

Too bad you're cherry picking past results to make your future predictions. You'd make a good climate change modelist.

And you are talking about ancient history that has nothing to do with portland or neo-nazis...

 

[TheGoverness]

lol

OK

Whatever you need for your historical revisions.

In 1492, Abraham Lincoln sailed the Pacific blue...

 

[Ikari]

The historical revisioner is calling me a historical revisioner.:lamo

The Rise of Fascism in Italy
The first meeting of the Fasci of Revolutionary Action was held on January 24, 1915, led by Benito Mussolini. In the next few years, the relatively small group was various political actions. In 1920, militant strike activity by industrial workers reached its peak in Italy. Mussolini and the Fascists took advantage of the situation by allying with industrial businesses and attacking workers and peasants in the name of preserving order and internal peace in Italy.

Fascists identified their primary opponents as the majority of socialists on the left who had opposed intervention in World War I. The Fascists and the Italian political right held common ground: both held Marxism in contempt, discounted class consciousness, and believed in the rule of elites. Fascism began to accommodate Italian conservatives by making major alterations to its political agenda—abandoning its previous populism, republicanism, and anticlericalism, adopting policies in support of free enterprise, and accepting the Roman Catholic Church and the monarchy as institutions in Italy.

To appeal to Italian conservatives, Fascism adopted policies such as promoting family values, including policies designed to reduce the number of women in the workforce by limiting the woman’s role to that of a mother. The fascists banned literature on birth control and increased penalties for abortion in 1926, declaring both crimes against the state. Though Fascism adopted a number of positions designed to appeal to reactionaries, the Fascists sought to maintain Fascism’s revolutionary character, with Angelo Oliviero Olivetti saying “Fascism would like to be conservative, but it will [be] by being revolutionary.” The Fascists supported revolutionary action and committed to secure law and order to appeal to both conservatives and syndicalists.

Prior to Fascism’s accommodation of the political right, Fascism was a small, urban, northern Italian movement that had about a thousand members. After Fascism’s accommodation of the political right, the Fascist movement’s membership soared to approximately 250,000 by 1921.

Fascists Seize Power
Beginning in 1922, Fascist paramilitaries escalated their strategy from attacking socialist offices and homes of socialist leadership figures to violent occupation of cities. The Fascists met little serious resistance from authorities and proceeded to take over several northern Italian cities. The Fascists attacked the headquarters of socialist and Catholic labor unions in Cremona and imposed forced Italianization upon the German-speaking population of Trent and Bolzano. After seizing these cities, the Fascists made plans to take Rome.

On October 24, 1922, the Fascist party held its annual congress in Naples, where Mussolini ordered Blackshirts to take control of public buildings and trains and converge on three points around Rome. The Fascists managed to seize control of several post offices and trains in northern Italy while the Italian government, led by a left-wing coalition, was internally divided and unable to respond to the Fascist advances. King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy thought the risk of bloodshed in Rome to disperse the Fascists was too high. Victor Emmanuel III decided to appoint Mussolini as Prime Minister of Italy, and Mussolini arrived in Rome on October 30 to accept the appointment. Fascist propaganda aggrandized this event, known as “March on Rome,” as a “seizure” of power because of Fascists’ heroic exploits.

I get it, partisans cannot distinguish down the line of left/right wing behavior. So somehow saying that fascism is a right-wing ideology (since it is) is an attack on American conservatives or some nonsense. Plus the desire to attack the other side makes it so that one has to lie and twist reality to make it what they want it to be.

No amount of delusion turns fascism away from being a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism. You can tilt at every windmill from here to the moon, but it won't change facts. But I can see this is as fruitful as trying to tell a flat-earther that the earth is spherical. lol

So have at your delusions.

 

[Ikari]

In 1492, Abraham Lincoln sailed the Pacific blue...

George Washington single handily won WW 2 when he beat Hitler in an arm wrestling contest.

 

[Ikari]

And you are talking about ancient history that has nothing to do with portland or neo-nazis...

And even his recount of history seems dubious, lol.

 

[Jay59]

It requires more than merely the word “socialist” in your group’s name to make so. The National Socialist Party was no more socialist than the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is either democratic or a republic.

You’re espousing a distinctly small minority view of what the Nazi party was. They paid lip service to socialism nothing more. That said there is something called “left wing facism” which has been used to speak about ostensibly left leaning regimes that have some fascist tendencies - most notably the old USSR. However most political scientists and sociologists consider true facism to be a far right ideology. That’s not to defend people like AntiFa who really seem to be more anarchists and the polar opposite of fascists.

Similar to what’s done with racism people like the throw the word fascism around to demonize the other side. That doesn’t change the fact that both words have actual meanings.

They did not play lip service to socialism. They promoted pensions, public education, and generally fit in well as a moderate left political group. Where you have a point is that they abandoned that moderate stance when the knives, literally, came out.

We need to remember that the the night of the long knives was greeted with relief and some enthusiasm. It was taken as a sign that Hitler was serious about working with the remnants of the right wing groups and business owners. It was very Machiavellian, doing one major violent act instead of a string of smaller ones. The knives went back into hiding but stayed in play. The pensions also stayed in place. In Italy was same song different verse. Mussolini bought many businesses with government money rather than simply taking them, but the social programs stayed in place.

It's easy to say that they were nationalist and militarist rather than socialist, but that applies equally well to Russia/USSR, China, etc. Leave it what it is. In a competitive political environment, fascists were moderate left while communists were extreme left. Both embraced force as a means of political persuasion. When their authority grew, the glove came off.

 

[Gaius46]

No. Fascism hasn't always been on the right. Mussolini, who had the black shirted Fasci in which fascism is named was on the left in the mid 1920s in Italy. Better read some history. Better read about Hitler's politics, too. Hitler wasn't on the right. Hitler was a combination of right and left politics.

Neither Mussolini during his Fascist era nor Hitler were left wing at least according the the overwhelming majority of people who actually study these things. I don’t know much about Il Duce but I do know a fair amount about the 3rd Reich and they were socialist in name only.

 

[cabse5]

I get it, partisans cannot distinguish down the line of left/right wing behavior. So somehow saying that fascism is a right-wing ideology (since it is) is an attack on American conservatives or some nonsense. Plus the desire to attack the other side makes it so that one has to lie and twist reality to make it what they want it to be.

No amount of delusion turns fascism away from being a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism. You can tilt at every windmill from here to the moon, but it won't change facts. But I can see this is as fruitful as trying to tell a flat-earther that the earth is spherical. lol

So have at your delusions.

If you persist in making fascism a solely right-winged creation, then neither Mussolini nor Hitler were fascists...Mussolini was left-winged but considered left-winged socialists as enemies...Heck, this isn't all that uncommon throughout history. The white communists hated the red communists in post-Tsar Russia, for example.

Hitler used Musollini's fascism as a blueprint for his Nazism. Hitler's politics were a combination of left and right politics.

Revision on.

 

[Phys251]

And yet, the Democrat party exists!

No it doesn't. The two major parties in our country are the Democratic and Republican parties.

 

[Ikari]

If you persist in making fascism a right winged creation, then neither Mussolini nor Hitler were fascists...Mussolini was left-winged but considered left-winged socialists as enemies. Hitler used Musollini's fascism as a blueprint for his Nazism. Hitler's politics were a combination of left and right politics.

Revision on.

You are correct, revision is on, as evident by your posts on the subject.

This has nothing to do with the topic on hand, I think you should take your "Mussolini was left-wing" lies and fantasies down to the CT forum and just focus on the topic of this thread.

Though Fascism adopted a number of positions designed to appeal to reactionaries, the Fascists sought to maintain Fascism’s revolutionary character, with Angelo Oliviero Olivetti saying “Fascism would like to be conservative, but it will [be] by being revolutionary.” The Fascists supported revolutionary action and committed to secure law and order to appeal to both conservatives and syndicalists.

 

[Gaius46]

They did not play lip service to socialism. They promoted pensions, public education, and generally fit in well as a moderate left political group. Where you have a point is that they abandoned that moderate stance when the knives, literally, came out.

We need to remember that the the night of the long knives was greeted with relief and some enthusiasm. It was taken as a sign that Hitler was serious about working with the remnants of the right wing groups and business owners. It was very Machiavellian, doing one major violent act instead of a string of smaller ones. The knives went back into hiding but stayed in play. The pensions also stayed in place. In Italy was same song different verse. Mussolini bought many businesses with government money rather than simply taking them, but the social programs stayed in place.

It's easy to say that they were nationalist and militarist rather than socialist, but that applies equally well to Russia/USSR, China, etc. Leave it what it is. In a competitive political environment, fascists were moderate left while communists were extreme left. Both embraced force as a means of political persuasion. When their authority grew, the glove came off.

Hitler was a populist and I’d argue he used socialist tinged programs simply as a tool to gain popular support. Further no economic system is pure and even we have programs, like public education, that are arguably socialist. That doesn’t make us socialists in my book. It’s just pragmatism at work.

In the end it doesn’t matter really. Both groups are assholes and arguing over labels is kind of besides the point.

 

[cabse5]

Neither Mussolini during his Fascist era nor Hitler were left wing at least according the the overwhelming majority of people who actually study these things. I don’t know much about Il Duce but I do know a fair amount about the 3rd Reich and they were socialist in name only.

History may have been remade or there may be an attempt to remake history. If that be the case, why?

Mussolini was left winged and Hitler based his Nazism on much of Mussolini's fascism.

 

[cabse5]

Hitler was a populist and I’d argue he used socialist tinged programs simply as a tool to gain popular support. Further no economic system is pure and even we have programs, like public education, that are arguably socialist. That doesn’t make us socialists in my book. It’s just pragmatism at work.

In the end it doesn’t matter really. Both groups are assholes and arguing over labels is kind of besides the point.

There are posters who wish to argue about labels, perpetually, avoiding the real issues.

 

[Anthony60]

Hmmm, odd how no damage to property comes w/o neo-nazis in the mix. You'd think portland would be a constant state of anarchy. It's not? Shocking right...

How odd of a statement. There seems to always be damage to people and property with antifa in the mix.

 

[cabse5]

You are correct, revision is on, as evident by your posts on the subject.

This has nothing to do with the topic on hand, I think you should take your "Mussolini was left-wing" lies and fantasies down to the CT forum and just focus on the topic of this thread.

Your 'fascists are only right-winged' are fantasies and are political swipes at the right and don't solve any issues.

 

[Lord of Planar]

How odd of a statement. There seems to always be damage to people and property with antifa in the mix.

It seems like that's why liberals support them.

They do what the snowflakes want to, but are afraid to do.

 

[Anthony60]

No it doesn't. The two major parties in our country are the Democratic and Republican parties.

Yay! And they exist!