The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism[W:124,144]

Looking to understand your point of view from a reasoned perspective. This is about Christ specifically, based on what we know if Him via the bible.
As I understand reason, there is no objective data that shows God does not exist. There are a slew of arguments that would attempt to persuade one in that direction, but no objective factual data.
What we are left with is our subjective interpretation (opinion) of the evidence.

If one lives as though God does not exist based on any of the various subjective interpretations of the evidences, is that not a de facto subjective belief that God does not exist?

What I would love to see laid to rest is the subjective belief that many hold that they know God does not exist. You can't know this. You can believe it, but you can't know it.
I can accept and to some extent respect this: "I believe God does not exist, and here is why..."
What I can't fathom is: "Based on science we know God does not exist."

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

Looking to understand your point of view from a reasoned perspective. This is about Christ specifically, based on what we know if Him via the bible.
As I understand reason, there is no objective data that shows God does not exist. There are a slew of arguments that would attempt to persuade one in that direction, but no objective factual data.
What we are left with is our subjective interpretation (opinion) of the evidence.

If one lives as though God does not exist based on any of the various subjective interpretations of the evidences, is that not a de facto subjective belief that God does not exist?

What I would love to see laid to rest is the subjective belief that many hold that they know God does not exist. You can't know this. You can believe it, but you can't know it.
I can accept and to some extent respect this: "I believe God does not exist, and here is why..."
What I can't fathom is: "Based on science we know God does not exist."

Click to expand...

No. "Living life as though god does not exist" is just "living." It is moments of my day I get back, rather than moments I spend. I just... live. Here in the real world, and when I need to figure something out, I only use known variables that I am pretty sure exist. Or at the very least, things that are likely to help me whether I understand the mechanism or not.

There is a difference between practical philosophy, and theoretical philosophy.

Theoretical philosophy would ask, "What are the indications that the Christian god is here?" The answer to that is, "There are none." That does not mean the theoretical atheist is saying "this god does not exist." It just means "I presently have no reason to believe in it."

Practical philosophy asks, "With the information I have, how do I live my life on a day-to-day basis?" Given that there is no indication the Christian god is present, the answer to that is, "I just live it, using what I can see."

The need to decide how to navigate one's life is not a proclamation of "belief." It is a practical matter we all must decide, and relating to the Christian god, there's only two choices: spend time acknowledging him, or don't spend time acknowledging him.

If one reaches the conclusion there is no evidence he is here, then the only logical choice is to not spend time acknowledging him. Those are moments of our lives we never get back. Why spend moments of our lives we'll never get back when we see no purpose in doing so?

Science has nothing to do with it. It's possible to argue against the Christian god without any science whatsoever. It simply has to do with the fact that we simply do not see the things claimed in reality. That much science directly disproves some Christian claims is just icing on the cake.

I do not "believe" the Christian god doesn't exist. I simply see no evidence of his existence, and therefore I see no reason to waste moments of my life I will never get back by talking to myself instead of taking action.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

SmokeAndMirrors said:

No. "Living life as though god does not exist" is just "living." It is moments of my day I get back, rather than moments I spend. I just... live. Here in the real world, and when I need to figure something out, I only use known variables that I am pretty sure exist. Or at the very least, things that are likely to help me whether I understand the mechanism or not.

There is a difference between practical philosophy, and theoretical philosophy.

Theoretical philosophy would ask, "What are the indications that the Christian god is here?" The answer to that is, "There are none." That does not mean the theoretical atheist is saying "this god does not exist." It just means "I presently have no reason to believe in it."

Practical philosophy asks, "With the information I have, how do I live my life on a day-to-day basis?" Given that there is no indication the Christian god is present, the answer to that is, "I just live it, using what I can see."

The need to decide how to navigate one's life is not a proclamation of "belief." It is a practical matter we all must decide, and relating to the Christian god, there's only two choices: spend time acknowledging him, or don't spend time acknowledging him.

If one reaches the conclusion there is no evidence he is here, then the only logical choice is to not spend time acknowledging him. Those are moments of our lives we never get back. Why spend moments of our lives we'll never get back when we see no purpose in doing so?

Science has nothing to do with it. It's possible to argue against the Christian god without any science whatsoever. It simply has to do with the fact that we simply do not see the things claimed in reality. That much science directly disproves some Christian claims is just icing on the cake.

I do not "believe" the Christian god doesn't exist. I simply see no evidence of his existence, and therefore I see no reason to waste moments of my life I will never get back by talking to myself instead of taking action.

Click to expand...

The testimony regarding Christ found in the Bible is evidence. Now you can debate the veracity, validity, probability, etc, of that evidence, but it is evidence. To say there is 0 is not correct.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

The testimony regarding Christ found in the Bible is evidence. Now you can debate the veracity, validity, probability, etc, of that evidence, but it is evidence. To say there is 0 is not correct.

Click to expand...

No, it isn't. Unless you also believe Jack and the Beanstalk is evidence of a magical beanstalk.

Anyone can write a story. That's not evidence of anything. The bible makes claims about things that exist in reality, and when we have looked for them, they don't exist.

The bible is simply a book of stories, assembled by political committee several thousand years ago, with the main purpose of how best to control the subjects of a kingdom.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

Looking to understand your point of view from a reasoned perspective. This is about Christ specifically, based on what we know if Him via the bible.
As I understand reason, there is no objective data that shows God does not exist. There are a slew of arguments that would attempt to persuade one in that direction, but no objective factual data.
What we are left with is our subjective interpretation (opinion) of the evidence.

If one lives as though God does not exist based on any of the various subjective interpretations of the evidences, is that not a de facto subjective belief that God does not exist?

What I would love to see laid to rest is the subjective belief that many hold that they know God does not exist. You can't know this. You can believe it, but you can't know it.
I can accept and to some extent respect this: "I believe God does not exist, and here is why..."
What I can't fathom is: "Based on science we know God does not exist."

Click to expand...

You can't know that God DOES exist either. That is impossible. There is no empirical evidence for this and stories are just stories; Bible or otherwise.

You are using a very subjective version, i.e. Christ, as a reference point and outside of Christianity, Christ never existed.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

SmokeAndMirrors said:

No, it isn't. Unless you also believe Jack and the Beanstalk is evidence of a magical beanstalk.

Anyone can write a story. That's not evidence of anything. The bible makes claims about things that exist in reality, and when we have looked for them, they don't exist.

The bible is simply a book of stories, assembled by political committee several thousand years ago, with the main purpose of how best to control the subjects of a kingdom.

Click to expand...

There is no comparison between Jack and the Beanstalk and the Bible. They are not even classified the same in atheist bookstores.
You can certainly read the Bible and say "I don't believe in this testimony" and that is fine. But it remains evidence of Christ.
I'm interested in hearing from those who are intellectually honest.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

jet57 said:

You can't know that God DOES exist either. That is impossible. There is no empirical evidence for this and stories are just stories; Bible or otherwise.
You are using a very subjective version, i.e. Christ, as a reference point and outside of Christianity, Christ never existed.

Click to expand...

I would say that I can't prove to you that God exists. But it is possible for one to KNOW God exists.
As an example, those who were with Christ and heard God's voice speaking to them all could personally know God exists. But they couldn't walk away from that and prove this knowledge to others. All they would have is their testimony.
If Christ exists he exists, whether you can prove it or not empirically. That is just logical.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

There is no comparison between Jack and the Beanstalk and the Bible. They are not even classified the same in atheist bookstores.
You can certainly read the Bible and say "I don't believe in this testimony" and that is fine. But it remains evidence of Christ.
I'm interested in hearing from those who are intellectually honest.

Click to expand...

It's not a testimony. It's hearsay.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

The testimony regarding Christ found in the Bible is evidence. Now you can debate the veracity, validity, probability, etc, of that evidence, but it is evidence. To say there is 0 is not correct.

Click to expand...

It is indeed evididence, but what is it evidence for?? It is actually evidence of belief... not that the belief is true.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

I would say that I can't prove to you that God exists. But it is possible for one to KNOW God exists.
As an example, those who were with Christ and heard God's voice speaking to them all could personally know God exists. But they couldn't walk away from that and prove this knowledge to others. All they would have is their testimony.
If Christ exists he exists, whether you can prove it or not empirically. That is just logical.

Click to expand...

Well no, it's not logical: Christ only exists in the minds of the believers. Do the voices in the heads of schizophrenics exist? They would tell you that they do, and as such, we cannot prove that they don't. So was it God's voice that was peaking to them? Or was the leader perhaps schizophrenic.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

As I understand reason, there is no objective data that shows God does not exist.

Click to expand...

Neither is there any proof that God does exist. Because God is a unfalsifiable hypothesis.

There are a slew of arguments that would attempt to persuade one in that direction, but no objective factual data.

Click to expand...

You do realise basically all of these questions can be throw back at you, right?

There are also a slew of arguments that would attempt to persuade one in the direction that God does exist, but there's no objective factual data for that either.

What we are left with is our subjective interpretation (opinion) of the evidence.

Click to expand...

There is no credible evidence of God's existence.

If one lives as though God does not exist based on any of the various subjective interpretations of the evidences, is that not a de facto subjective belief that God does not exist?

Click to expand...

What evidence is there even to interpret? There is no credible evidence of a God's existence.

What I would love to see laid to rest is the subjective belief that many hold that they know God does not exist. You can't know this. You can believe it, but you can't know it.
I can accept and to some extent respect this: "I believe God does not exist, and here is why..."
What I can't fathom is: "Based on science we know God does not exist."

Click to expand...

You can't know if God exists either. You can believe he exist, but you can't know it.

Now my position (like many non-believers' position) is this:

I can neither prove nor disprove God's existence 100%, but since there is absolutely no credible evidence to support the existence of a God, there is no reason for me to believe in one.

And for the record, the buden of proof isn't on us to prove that God doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on you to prove to us that he does exist.

Same goes for any other unsubstantiated claim.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

Looking to understand your point of view from a reasoned perspective. This is about Christ specifically, based on what we know if Him via the bible.
As I understand reason, there is no objective data that shows God does not exist. There are a slew of arguments that would attempt to persuade one in that direction, but no objective factual data.
What we are left with is our subjective interpretation (opinion) of the evidence.

If one lives as though God does not exist based on any of the various subjective interpretations of the evidences, is that not a de facto subjective belief that God does not exist?

What I would love to see laid to rest is the subjective belief that many hold that they know God does not exist. You can't know this. You can believe it, but you can't know it.
I can accept and to some extent respect this: "I believe God does not exist, and here is why..."
What I can't fathom is: "Based on science we know God does not exist."

Click to expand...

I'm agnostic. I don't know the answer and I don't expect to learn it.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

The testimony regarding Christ found in the Bible is evidence. Now you can debate the veracity, validity, probability, etc, of that evidence, but it is evidence. To say there is 0 is not correct.

Click to expand...

A claim is not evidence that the claim is true.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

The testimony regarding Christ found in the Bible is evidence. Now you can debate the veracity, validity, probability, etc, of that evidence, but it is evidence. To say there is 0 is not correct.

Click to expand...

The Bible is not evidence of God.

If the Bible is evidence of God's existence, then Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is evidence of Voldemort's existence.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

I have no problem with there being a God,just why does it have to be YOUR God?

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

There is no comparison between Jack and the Beanstalk and the Bible. They are not even classified the same in atheist bookstores.

Click to expand...

Ignoring your irrelevant point about atheist bookstores, Jack and the Beanstalk and the Bible are similar in this way:

they both make wild unsubstantiated claims without any evidence to back them up.

You can certainly read the Bible and say "I don't believe in this testimony" and that is fine. But it remains evidence of Christ.

Click to expand...

No it doesn't. It was never evidence of Christ. It's a bunch of words on a page. Just like the City of Ember, or the Hunger Games.

I'm interested in hearing from those who are intellectually honest.

Click to expand...

Sure you are, buddy.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

The testimony regarding Christ found in the Bible is evidence. Now you can debate the veracity, validity, probability, etc, of that evidence, but it is evidence. To say there is 0 is not correct.

Click to expand...

No. The bible is a claim, not evidence.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Verthaine said:

I have no problem with there being a God,just why does it have to be YOUR God?

Click to expand...

Because that's the one he believes in.

You'll be amazed at the amount of logic loop-de-loops he'll have to make to prove that HIS God is real, and not anyone else's.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

Cable said:

There is no comparison between Jack and the Beanstalk and the Bible. They are not even classified the same in atheist bookstores.
You can certainly read the Bible and say "I don't believe in this testimony" and that is fine. But it remains evidence of Christ.
I'm interested in hearing from those who are intellectually honest.

Click to expand...

The only difference between fantasy and religion is whether people believe in it. Both have the same amount of evidence here in the real world.

The bible isn't evidence of anything. You not liking that fact is irrelevant to whether it is true.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

I wouldn't use the argument of "because the Bible says so" because it doesn't mean anything to non-believers. I love the stories of Jesus though and thought that even if Jesus didn't exist then I would believe the wisdom behind whoever made up Jesus. I also wondered why anyone would make up Jesus? Isn't it interesting to anyone that so many people claim Jesus was made up without a single trace as to who it was? I've also actually posted a thread asking why someone would make up Jesus, and many of the posters seemed to think it was money. So now there's this rich person who made up Jesus walking around back then yet no one has a clue as to who he/she is.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

JC Callender said:

I wouldn't use the argument of "because the Bible says so" because it doesn't mean anything to non-believers. I love the stories of Jesus though and thought that even if Jesus didn't exist then I would believe the wisdom behind whoever made up Jesus. I also wondered why anyone would make up Jesus? Isn't it interesting to anyone that so many people claim Jesus was made up without a single trace as to who it was? I've also actually posted a thread asking why someone would make up Jesus, and many of the posters seemed to think it was money. So now there's this rich person who made up Jesus walking around back then yet no one has a clue as to who he/she is.

Click to expand...

Why would anyone make up Zeus,Odin,Horas,Vishnu and every other God that people believed in on this planet?

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

JC Callender said:

I wouldn't use the argument of "because the Bible says so" because it doesn't mean anything to non-believers. I love the stories of Jesus though and thought that even if Jesus didn't exist then I would believe the wisdom behind whoever made up Jesus. I also wondered why anyone would make up Jesus? Isn't it interesting to anyone that so many people claim Jesus was made up without a single trace as to who it was? I've also actually posted a thread asking why someone would make up Jesus, and many of the posters seemed to think it was money. So now there's this rich person who made up Jesus walking around back then yet no one has a clue as to who he/she is.

Click to expand...

Probably the same reason people made up the Greek Gods, or Allah, or Vishnu, or any of the other 10000's of Gods and dieties out there.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

TheGoverness said:

Probably the same reason people made up the Greek Gods, or Allah, or Vishnu, or any of the other 10000's of Gods and dieties out there.

Click to expand...

And what reason is that?

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

JC Callender said:

And what reason is that?

Click to expand...

I think it's because since back in those times there was many things we did not know or fully understand (ex: the sun is at the center of all celestial bodies, the Earth is round, etc, etc.). And since back then people didn't even know the basics of any branch of science, they've got to fill that gap of uncertainty somehow. So I think religion, as well as all of the supernatural beliefs those people held back then, helped fill that gap of uncertainty.

But that's just my theory.

Re: The belief of the various flavors of atheism and/or agnosticism

jet57 said:

Well no, it's not logical: Christ only exists in the minds of the believers. ....

Click to expand...

It is clear that you don't have a good grasp of logic.