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[*W:193*] Israel considers banning entry to outspoken US congresswomen

I'm back. My argument is that Israel is a brutal, foreign theocracy. You don't have to like the two American women in question to support them as AMERICANS. For this foreign theocracy, Israel, that accepts so much aid from America, to insult our representatives should be met with universal disdain from Americans. That aid comes from the tax dollars of THEIR constituents as well.

For the president and the conservatives to, time and again, give such preference to another nation is disgraceful.

Thank you, D_NATURED.

So if I understand your argument, no matter what another fellow American says or does to have deserved it, if that fellow American suffers some affront from a foreigner or foreign government I am duty-bound to take their side in the dispute over the foreigner no matter the circumstance? Like some kind of insular Sicilian family where, no matter how much we may personally think that a particular family member's toxic behavior and attitude are, we do not allow anyone outside our family to level criticism against them and we always take their side?

If that is the principle that you articulate and promote, do you apply this principle to Donald Trump? If he suffers any affront from foreign governments that your fellow progressives and liberals laud, do you wheel about on them suddenly and figuratively (or literally) slap them across the face and label them un-American for taking the side of dirty foreigners over our president who, despite his myriad faults, is still American? That seems rather "my country (or, more accurately, my countrymen) right or wrong" to me. If that is your attitude and how you have behaved, then I laud your consistent adherence to such a principle. But I do not see how such a principle is practical or practicable and seems to foster the same kind of naked toxic nationalism that one finds in countries like the People's Republic of China.

Because nowhere in the pledge of allegiance have I sworn to take the side of each and every American over a foreigner no matter what the context of the affront or the dispute. Neither Ilhan Omar nor Rashida Tlaib are my family. They are not my kith nor my kin. They owe me no love or support, nor do I owe them my love or support, and I have certainly never received love or support from them. They are two horrible people whose thoughts, feelings and views I utterly despise and who by all accounts hate the nation of Israel and would wish to see harm come to its people. No sovereign nation should be forced to suffer the presence of those foreign persons who despise it and associate with those who would wish to annihilate it.

Finally, responding to your first point last, Israel is not a theocracy in any meaningful sense of the word. It is a liberal parliamentary democracy. It is not ultimately ruled over by a council of clerics or religiously-ordained absolute monarchs as Iran or Saudi Arabia are. While Judaism is the state religion, that matters as much to me (and most Jews in Israel who are mainly secular or non-religious) as the fact that the United Kingdom is officially a Christian nation with the Queen being the head of the Anglican Church. If simply having an official state religion makes a country a theocracy to you, alright, then Israel is a Theocracy, as is the United Kingdom, Denmark and Norway. As far as brutality is concerned, I know of no other instance in history where a liberal democracy has suffered as much in the way of foreign invasion and terror and managed to respond with as much restraint as Israel has and still maintain its democratic character. Perhaps you can provide some examples?
 
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What is BDS? And please source that they were going to promote that.

Again? Sigh. Have done this like 10 times on this forum....

Here’s a ton of quotes from their founder and other leadership. Can’t be bothered to block quote them again.

BDS: In Their Own Words


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What is BDS? And please source that they were going to promote that.

The State of Israel adopted a law in 2017 which prohibits the entry into Israel of any foreigner who makes a "public call for boycotting Israel" or "any area under its control." This includes proponents of the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement (BDS).

Omar: Ilhan Omar (D-Mn) introduces anti-Jewish bigotry to the House - Israel National News

Tlaib is the same but I can’t be bothered to find a source. Needless to say the Israeli government told her she could come if she didn’t promote bds and she got all in tizzy about that and bailed (even though she asked for it in the first place).




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I do not buy your BS, including the BS of pro-Israeli Democrats who went after them for anti-Semitism.
Just as there are American representatives who are influenced by their ethnic background to support Israel, there are also Americans who are influenced by their ethnic background to support Palestine. This is about a class of interests between Middle-Eastern Jews and Arabs and the support each side can get from Americans who sympathize more with one side or another.

Yes. It’s all about the Benjamins, no?


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Yes. It’s all about the Benjamins, no?

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CJ 2.0:

Well the State of Israel's response to the BDS movement is due to the fear that the boycott, divestment and sanction campaign could cost Israel a lot of "Benjamins", Euros, Rubbles, Rupies, and Shekels, so metaphorically it is all about the Benjamins. Both dollars and Netenyahus.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Again? Sigh. Have done this like 10 times on this forum....

Here’s a ton of quotes from their founder and other leadership. Can’t be bothered to block quote them again.

BDS: In Their Own Words


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Thank you. It's an incredibly biased source but I accept the quotes from that mostly singular individual.
 
The State of Israel adopted a law in 2017 which prohibits the entry into Israel of any foreigner who makes a "public call for boycotting Israel" or "any area under its control." This includes proponents of the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement (BDS).

Omar: Ilhan Omar (D-Mn) introduces anti-Jewish bigotry to the House - Israel National News

Tlaib is the same but I can’t be bothered to find a source. Needless to say the Israeli government told her she could come if she didn’t promote bds and she got all in tizzy about that and bailed (even though she asked for it in the first place).




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Another incredibly, gullibly biased source and I dont really see any hate in her quote. It's all about non-violence and using strategies we use with other countries that are abusive or dangerous.

I also have not mentioned anything about Israel's decision to deny them entry, but I respect any country's right to do so.
 
Anti-Israel is not the same as Anti-Semitic.
Also, next time an anti-Arab senator or representative (Arabs are Semitic people too by the way) wants to visit say Egypt or another Arab country, the US president should propose that these countries ban the entry of such Congresspeople.

Ilhan Omar and Rashid Tlaib decided that - rather than going as part of a bipartisan congressional delegation - they were going to go on a trip sponsored by Miftah, which has spread the Blood Libel claim that Jews use the blood of Christian Children in their Passover meals, and publishes Neo-Nazi organizations' works on how Jews Secretly Control America, And Promote Evils Such As Racial Mixing. :roll:

So.... yeah. That's pretty squarely in the realm of "anti-Semitism".
 
I have posted a whole article giving an answer to the claims that were heard against Omar, and it was written by a Jewish-American (so no-one can claim that it represents anti-semitic views). I suggest that you read it carefully while you have your coffee

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/03/05/dishonest-smearing-ilhan-omar/

So her antisemitic remarks weren't antisemitic because "it's true that the pro-Israeli American lobby is pushing for dual loyalty"?
No it doesn't. It pushes for support to Israel. Her antisemitic remarks thus remain antisemitic, they are antisemitic because they tried to exploit well known antisemitic stereotypes. It's not a coincidence she used money and dual loyalty as the two subjects of her accusations.

You should ask yourself why you ended up standing for a racist individual.
Many of those who define themselves as progressives and socialists end up supporting racist people and promoting racism themselves because of pure partisanship.
 
You should ask yourself why you ended up standing for a racist individual.
Many of those who define themselves as progressives and socialists end up supporting racist people and promoting racism themselves because of pure partisanship.

WANTED: Leftist Commentators Willing To Use The Same Standards For Racism Against Omar As They Use Against Trump.

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Ilhan Omar and Rashid Tlaib decided that - rather than going as part of a bipartisan congressional delegation - they were going to go on a trip sponsored by Miftah, which has spread the Blood Libel claim that Jews use the blood of Christian Children in their Passover meals, and publishes Neo-Nazi organizations' works on how Jews Secretly Control America, And Promote Evils Such As Racial Mixing. :roll:

So.... yeah. That's pretty squarely in the realm of "anti-Semitism".

First,


POLITICO Playbook PM: Scoop: Miftah wasn’t a problem when other congressmen went to ‘Palestine’ with them - POLITICO

IN 2016, Reps. MATT CARTWRIGHT (D-Pa.), DAN KILDEE (D-Mich.), MARK POCAN (D-Wis.), LUIS GUTIERREZ (D-Ill.) and HANK JOHNSON (D-Ga.) all went on a five-day trip to Israel and the West Bank sponsored by the group.

-- THE TRIP, which was between May 26 and June 1, 2016, was sponsored by the American Global Institute in addition to Miftah.

-- AND ON THAT TRIP, the members of Congress listed their destination as “Palestine - Jerusalem - Ramallah” -- not Israel.

-- THOSE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS stayed in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Ramallah. They met with PLO officials and MIFTAH board members, went to Hebron and met with its mayor, and tried to tour Gaza, but were prevented by the Israeli government.




There is a difference between claiming that there is anti-semitism in Palestine and claiming that Tlaib or Omar are anti-semites. The fact that Tlaib will not go after anti-semitics in Palestine is no different from the attitude of pro-Israel American politicians who do not go after the crazy bigots of the Likud party who think that god chose them to control all Palestine or guys and ministers in Israel who support rabbis like the following guy https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-to-honor-rabbi-who-praised-hebron-massacre-perpetrator/

It is a given that in bitter struggles between two nations there will be animosity in some parts of the society and that during the struggle no politician will choose to confront it. We see the same thing in the US who the stakes are wayyyyyy lower and when people see as a threat the poor Mexicans coming here to "steal" our jobs in an environment of 3% unemployment . You can imagine the hate and bigotry if the stakes were much higher and the Mexicans were coming with a powerful occupying army to blow off houses and annex territories.
 
First,


POLITICO Playbook PM: Scoop: Miftah wasn’t a problem when other congressmen went to ‘Palestine’ with them - POLITICO

IN 2016, Reps. MATT CARTWRIGHT (D-Pa.), DAN KILDEE (D-Mich.), MARK POCAN (D-Wis.), LUIS GUTIERREZ (D-Ill.) and HANK JOHNSON (D-Ga.) all went on a five-day trip to Israel and the West Bank sponsored by the group.


How, exactly, does that change anything about them? They still promulgate anti-semitic conspiracy theories, including the blood libel and neo-nazi writings.

Do YOU believe that Jews use the blood of Christian children in their rituals, and secretly control the United States, turning people gay and causing evil racial mixing?

Or, do you think those positions are bigoted?



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So her antisemitic remarks weren't antisemitic because "it's true that the pro-Israeli American lobby is pushing for dual loyalty"?
No it doesn't. It pushes for support to Israel. Her antisemitic remarks thus remain antisemitic, they are antisemitic because they tried to exploit well known antisemitic stereotypes. It's not a coincidence she used money and dual loyalty as the two subjects of her accusations.

You should ask yourself why you ended up standing for a racist individual.
Many of those who define themselves as progressives and socialists end up supporting racist people and promoting racism themselves because of pure partisanship.

The article explains that the remark was not about the Jewish-Americans having dual loyalty. The article is clear. Did you read it?


Now, back to Omar. Here’s the truth: The whole purpose of the Democrats’ resolution is to enforce dual loyalty not among Jews, but among members of Congress, to make sure that criticism of Israel is punished in the most visible way possible. This, of course, includes Omar. As it happens, this punishment of criticism of Israel is exactly what the freshman congresswoman was complaining about, and has on multiple occasions. The fact that no one seems to acknowledge that this is her complaint shows how spectacularly disingenuous Omar’s critics are being.

...

I have to repeat this: In the United States today, a “supporter of Israel” is much more likely to be an evangelical Christian Republican than a Jew.

...

Ilhan Omar certainly didn’t say that Jews have dual loyalty. For instance, in one of the tweets that got people so worked up, Omar said, “I should not be expected to have allegiance/pledge support to a foreign country in order to serve my country in Congress or serve on committee.” You’ll notice she didn’t say or even imply anything at all about Jews.


And yes, Evangelical Christians are very clear about their dual loyalty, civic to the US and spiritual to Israel

Pat Roberston's words

Pat Robertson: Why Evangelicals Support Israel | CBN News

These facts about modern-day Israel are all true. But mere political rhetoric does not account for the profound devotion to Israel that exists in the hearts of tens of millions of evangelical Christians.
 
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You should ask yourself why you ended up standing for a racist individual.
Many of those who define themselves as progressives and socialists end up supporting racist people and promoting racism themselves because of pure partisanship.

I stand up for objectivity because I see the racism on both sides, and because I am familiar with the historical experience from my country which fought for more than a century against the Turks to understand how bitter national struggles can excite passion and hate against the other side.
 
How, exactly, does that change anything about them? They still promulgate anti-semitic conspiracy theories, including the blood libel and neo-nazi writings.

Do YOU believe that Jews use the blood of Christian children in their rituals, and secretly control the United States, turning people gay and causing evil racial mixing?

Or, do you think those positions are bigoted?



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I said that I separate those who are racists within a Palestinian group from a politician who refuses to expose such hate. Politicians, especially during an ongoing battle will not start such a battle. It does not matter if this hate is among Palestinians or among Israelis (as in the recent example I posted) or even among Americans. You see how politicians often refuse even here, the supposedly civilized and veryyy secure country to confront racism and hate within their side.

Of course blood libel is a bigoted position, and as even your article mentioned, the group eventually was forced to apologize because that position was simply indefensible. I never questioned the claim that there is anti-Semitism within the Palestinians. But if this some type of excuse to deny support for their independence then this is a red line for me. I doubt that there are many nations which can prove to be more "enlightened" regarding anti-semitism under the conditions that Palestinians face in the West Bank. And in any case, anti-semitism cannot be defeated by letting Israelis continue their occupation in the West Bank which by the way does not even adopt the hardcore and more violent reaction that Palestinians in Gaza have adopted.
 
I said that I separate those who are racists within a Palestinian group from a politician who refuses to expose such hate.

Actually, what you said was:

Anti-Israel is not the same as Anti-Semitic.

A claim that, though tenuous, is, theoretically, intellectually defensible.

My point, however, was that this distinction did not apply in this instance, as the group Ilhan Omar and Rashid Tlaib had decided to join themselves to was, in fact, anti-semitic.


Of course blood libel is a bigoted position

:) Glad to hear it. So too, I would say, is the position that a Jewish Conspiracy secretly controls the United States, forcing us to engage in evils such as racial mixing, but, for some reason, you chose not to address that part of the question. Do you think that claim, first published by a neo-nazi organization, and amplified by the group Omar and Tlaib chose to join with, is an anti-semitic position?
 
[h=1]Israel considers banning entry to outspoken US congresswomen[/h]Israel official: Netanyahu weighing ban on Omar, Tlaib visit - ABC News
Israel's prime minister and other top officials were meeting on Thursday to reevaluate the decision to allow two Democratic congresswomen who support the Palestinian-led boycott movement to enter the country next week.

An Israeli official said they were meeting about an upcoming visit by Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota and Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan. The newly-elected Muslim members of Congress are outspoken critics of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Tlaib's family immigrated to the United States from the West Bank.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity in line with regulations, said "there is a possibility that Israel will not allow the visit in its current proposed format."

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It's official. Based on Trump's recommendation, Israel has banned both Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib. Wave 'bye bye' to your Constitutional freedoms people, they just got thrown out the window and are no longer part of the Constitution. Freedom of speech will come at a heavy price from now on.

Seeing as this is about who Israel is willing to allow in their own country. I don't think claiming that this is us saying goodbye to our constitutional freedoms. Not to mention the fact that both Tlaib & Omar have shown to be utterly disrespectful, and even openly antagonistic to Israel as a whole.

I'd say that they have just as much right to say who they let in, as we do.
 
Seeing as this is about who Israel is willing to allow in their own country. I don't think claiming that this is us saying goodbye to our constitutional freedoms. Not to mention the fact that both Tlaib & Omar have shown to be utterly disrespectful, and even openly antagonistic to Israel as a whole.

I'd say that they have just as much right to say who they let in, as we do.

Now it's perfectly okay with you to have a president that not only bans people from entering our country but bans those who want to leave it?
 
Quite apart from the decisions made by the State of Israel regarding the two Congresswomen, the bigger question for Americans should be can/should one branch of the US Government (the Executive) have the power to block another branch from going on international fact-finding missions abroad in order to conduct investigations which the executive may not approve of? That is a very dangerous precedent and one that could erode both American institutional and personal liberties at the discretion of the US Executive.

On the Israeli side of the equation, can/should an occupying power block international investigators from visiting militarily occupied territories once military operations and open hostilities have fallen to the level of sporadic resistance. From an international perspective, the two congresswomen wanted to visit East Jerusalem and the West Bank, both occupied territories where Israeli law does not apply except military law and these territories are not recognised as part of the State of Israel, so the anti-BDS law does not apply to them strictly speaking. Suppose the two Congresswomen had travelled to Jordan and tried to enter the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordanian territory. Could and should the State of Israel legally stopped them?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Now it's perfectly okay with you to have a president that not only bans people from entering our country but bans those who want to leave it?

Alright, I'll bite.

Did Trump ban them from leaving?
 
Seeing as this is about who Israel is willing to allow in their own country. I don't think claiming that this is us saying goodbye to our constitutional freedoms. Not to mention the fact that both Tlaib & Omar have shown to be utterly disrespectful, and even openly antagonistic to Israel as a whole.

I'd say that they have just as much right to say who they let in, as we do.

I'd say calling Israel, "Palestine" and refusing to even acknowledge Israel's very existence on their itinerary is openly hostile and on its face, would justify denial of entry.
 
Alright, I'll bite.

Did Trump ban them from leaving?

Essentially, he prevented them from leaving, we can't call it an out and out 'ban' but the end result was the same. Two members of Congress were prevented from traveling to Israel, which other Congressmen do regularly and freely.
 
Quite apart from the decisions made by the State of Israel regarding the two Congresswomen, the bigger question for Americans should be can/should one branch of the US Government (the Executive) have the power to block another branch from going on international fact-finding missions abroad in order to conduct investigations which the executive may not approve of? That is a very dangerous precedent and one that could erode both American institutional and personal liberties at the discretion of the US Executive.

On the Israeli side of the equation, can/should an occupying power block international investigators from visiting militarily occupied territories once military operations and open hostilities have fallen to the level of sporadic resistance. From an international perspective, the two congresswomen wanted to visit East Jerusalem and the West Bank, both occupied territories where Israeli law does not apply except military law and these territories are not recognised as part of the State of Israel, so the anti-BDS law does not apply to them strictly speaking. Suppose the two Congresswomen had travelled to Jordan and tried to enter the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordanian territory. Could and should the State of Israel legally stopped them?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Clearly that was not Omar and Tlaib's intent. From their blood libel sponsors to their hostile regard for a country they were asking for visas to their entire agenda being BDS. If that was indeed their intent, they could have joined their 70 Congressional colleagues the week before. Clearly this was a set up and no matter what Israel did, they were going to be attacked.

Look, Tlaib is so evil that she would use her own grandmother in a cynical political ploy to hurt Israel. We're not dealing with good intent here. We're dealing with evil.
 
Essentially, he prevented them from leaving, we can't call it an out and out 'ban' but the end result was the same. Two members of Congress were prevented from traveling to Israel, which other Congressmen do regularly and freely.

Trump did no such thing. This whole "the evil Jews control America" is so damn antisemitic.
 
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