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Post-Trump.

Craig234 said:
When one side's agenda is disaster for the country and the people, compromise and cooperation isn't the answer. Either the plutocrat Republicans are defeated or the country has a disaster, those are the choices. In the non-disaster choices, with either have a corporatist Democrat problem, or more prosperity with progressives. Bernie and progressives are the only very good pick.
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Hi! Thank you for taking time to comment. I note that your post is in the 'our side are saviors and the other side is H--- bent on destroying everything' category. It is this, at the gut level, which helps to destroy the governmental safeguards which still exist. Some of them, incidentally, are not defined other than by 'that's the way we've done things in the past.'

Regards
 
Perotista said:
If it is a dictatorship, we have an elected one. Being an old fart I remember Nikita Khrushchev when then VP Richard Nixon accused him of being a dictator for not having elections in the old USSR. Khrushchev Responded by stating our president was a dictator too, only elected.
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Hi! From one old fart to another, nicely said.

Regards.
 
j brown's body said:
Clinton retired with a 65% approval rating.
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That a what do you call it? An uptick after the people know he's gone. It happens to almost every president.
Obama rose from 53% after the election in 2016 to 59% when he left office
G.W. Bush rose from 25% after the election in 2008 to 34%
Bill Clinton rose from 57% after the election in 2000 to 65%
G.H.W. Bush rose from 34% after the election in 1992 to 55% Probably the biggest jump
Reagan rose from 51% after the election in 1988 to 63% when he left office
Carter actually dropped from 37% after the election to 34% when he left office. The only president that dropped in approval once the people knew he wasn't coming back.
Ford rose from 45% after the election in 1976 rose to 53% when he left office.

I don't think Bill would have been reelected, most Americans were scandal tired. I think this showed up with Al Gore losing, even though Gore was completely untouched by any of Bill's scandals, some of them rubbed off on him. Bill was a likable guy and a great campaigner, he had the ability to connect with the people like only FDR and Reagan did. Gore was a statue, the complete opposite of Bill. Bill was healthy and popular, still I think quite a lot of folks when going to the polls would be thinking, do we want four more years of scandal. My take anyway.
 
Torus34 said:
Hi! Thank you for taking time to comment. I note that your post is in the 'our side are saviors and the other side is H--- bent on destroying everything' category. It is this, at the gut level, which helps to destroy the governmental safeguards which still exist. Some of them, incidentally, are not defined other than by 'that's the way we've done things in the past.'
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I don't know what you're trying to say. Are you disagreeing that one side is hellbent on destruction, without any support for your position?
 
Perotista said:
I don't think Bill would have been reelected.
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Bill Clinton would have had a third term IMO. I say that as someone not a fan, though I much prefer him to Bush. BTW, Gore did win. The election was stolen.
 
jnug said:
I don't have to go through some deep psychic analysis of Bernie probing for some understanding. He has said the words "I AM A SOCIALIST" and he has come out clearly in support of the Castro position of decriminalization at the Border. There is nothing to analysis.

Bernie will have "I am a Socialist" shoved down his throat till he chokes on it. That was an unforced error. Now he has made it so that if the Dems nominate Bernie they will have come down entirely on the side of Socialism and Open Borders since decriminalizing the border will yield open borders. So if the Dems nominate Bernie they sink the entire Party. This should not be hard to understand as unpalatable as it might be to you.

A few avowed Socialists sprinkled through the Capitol building is not the same thing as putting one in the WH. THAT is not going to fly nor is making a Socialist the standard bearer for the entire Dem Party by making him the nominee going to fly for the Party.
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You are making false statements, and you are clearly doing so so intentionally you don't deserve a respectful reply. Bernie supports ending deportations for people who have been in the US five years, and you are ignoring his statements on his economic policies to be dishonest.
 
Craig234 said:
You are making false statements, and you are clearly doing so so intentionally you don't deserve a respectful reply. Bernie supports ending deportations for people who have been in the US five years, and you are ignoring his statements on his economic policies to be dishonest.
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Democratic Socialist v Social Democrat:
The difference between the two is that modern social democrats support practical reforms to capitalism as an end in itself whereas democratic socialists ultimately want to go beyond social democratic reforms and advocate systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism.

Further:
Democratic socialism is a political philosophy which advocates political democracy alongside a socially owned economy,

Bernie, June this year:
"I call myself a democratic socialist."

In other words the only dif between a Socialist and a Democratic Socialist is NOTHING. I frankly do not consider some time element for converting to Democratic Socialism a distinction with a difference. You will end up with government control of the levers of an economy by pushing the limits of widespread government sponsored social services as Bernie has claimed is the crux of his social program platform.

That simply will not fly in this country. The tax rates that would flow out of Democratic Socialism here would put us on a scale with the other Countries that practice Democratic Socialism There would be no way to keep those tax rates from effecting the middle class and investment across the board. The result of that is reduced interest in generating income be it from capital or labor. In other words we would no longer be a Capitalist Economy. We would no longer be incentivized by profit or income. We would be feeding the socialist beast or the Democratic Socialist beast if you prefer. There is no way to put lipstick on that particular pig.

Bernie on decriminalizing the border per his recent release of his Immigration Policy Plank:
Repeal 8 U.S. Code Section 1325, putting border crossings on par with other forms of immigration violations, such as overstaying a visa.

USC 1325
Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, (2) entry into marriage for the purpose of evading immigration laws, and (3) establishing a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading immigration laws.

That is effectively taking away Prosecutorial Discretion AGAIN, simply through Maximum Tolerance as opposed to Zero Tolerance. Both Bernie and Liz at least for now coming down in concurrence with Castro.
 
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jnug said:
Democratic Socialist v Social Democrat:
The difference between the two is that modern social democrats support practical reforms to capitalism as an end in itself whereas democratic socialists ultimately want to go beyond social democratic reforms and advocate systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism.

Further:
Democratic socialism is a political philosophy which advocates political democracy alongside a socially owned economy,

Bernie, June this year:
"I call myself a democratic socialist."

In other words the only dif between a Socialist and a Democratic Socialist is NOTHING. I frankly do not consider some time element for converting to Democratic Socialism a distinction with a difference. You will end up with government control of the levers of an economy by pushing the limits of widespread government sponsored social services as Bernie has claimed is the crux of his social program platform.

That simply will not fly in this country. The tax rates that would flow out of Democratic Socialism here would put us on a scale with the other Countries that practice Democratic Socialism There would be no way to keep those tax rates from effecting the middle class and investment across the board. The result of that is reduced interest in generating income be it from capital or labor. In other words we would no longer be a Capitalist Economy. We would no longer be incentivized by profit or income. We would be feeding the socialist beast or the Democratic Socialist beast if you prefer. There is no way to put lipstick on that particular pig.

Bernie on decriminalizing the border per his recent release of his Immigration Policy Plank:
Repeal 8 U.S. Code Section 1325, putting border crossings on par with other forms of immigration violations, such as overstaying a visa.

USC 1325
Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, (2) entry into marriage for the purpose of evading immigration laws, and (3) establishing a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading immigration laws.

That is effectively taking away Prosecutorial Discretion AGAIN, simply through Maximum Tolerance as opposed to Zero Tolerance. Both Bernie and Liz at least for now coming down in concurrence with Castro.
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Your continuing to willfully misrepresent facts isn't helping you. If you want to discuss Bernie, discuss his specific policies, not your claims.

Yes, he wants to reform the border processes and abolish the rogue agency ICE (my word, not his), replacing it with other law enforcement. So do I. People would still be deported, if they haven't lived here five years. But brutal policies such as family separation would be ended as much as practical.
 
Craig234 said:
Your continuing to willfully misrepresent facts isn't helping you. If you want to discuss Bernie, discuss his specific policies, not your claims.

Yes, he wants to reform the border processes and abolish the rogue agency ICE (my word, not his), replacing it with other law enforcement. So do I. People would still be deported, if they haven't lived here five years. But brutal policies such as family separation would be ended as much as practical.
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I read the specific policy planks and the relevant oratory. Did you? They are not hard to find.

I am not looking for help. I CAN READ.
 
jnug said:
I read the specific policy planks and the relevant oratory. Did you?

They are not hard to find.
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Yet they're not in your post. Medicare for all, student debt, etc.

I'm done with your nonsense and misrepresentations.
 
Craig234 said:
Yet they're not in your post. Medicare for all, student debt, etc.

I'm done with your nonsense and misrepresentations.
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Etc etc etc. Bernie makes no bones about being a Democratic Socialist. Are you contending that Bernie is LYING?????

A Democratic Socialist is not a Social Democrat. Now if he was claiming to be a Social Democrat you could draw some conclusions about the outer limits of his intentions and it is entirely possible for a claimed Social Democrat to be elected President in this country. But even rudimentary English Grammar would tell you that "Democratic" is an adjective in the term Democratic Socialist. Hence a Democratic Socialist IS A SOCIALIST.
 
Mach said:
It was. It was the right wing crazy that was the issue. After losing twice to a black man, they voted in a reality TV show con-man who has taken a huge dump on the institution of government and 60% of the population.
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The people who voted for Hillary in the Primary have some culpability!!!!
 
charliebrown said:
The people who voted for Hillary in the Primary have some culpability!!!!
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Are we culpable because we weren't taken in by a fast-talking racist con man and a sexual predator who has now committed impeachable offenses? Hillary certainly wasn't my first choice but when given the choice between Hillary and Donald Trump, supporting her was an easy decision to make.
 
Torus34 said:
We will, either in 2020 or in 2024, see a change of president.* We may even see a change in the party in charge of the Administration. There is, however, little possibility of seeing a change -- a reversal, if you please -- of the current lack of compromise between the Republicans and the Democrats in the legislature.** A winner-takes-all attitude in which a compromise is seen as a loss has taken hold. Opponents are vilified and no longer seen as equals.

It is difficult to see how we can escape from this situation. Its effect is that our government will lurch from extreme to extreme, with the swings of the pendulum increasing with time.

* The possibility of an annulment of the 22nd Amendment is small, but cannot be completely ruled out.
** Or, for that matter, between the president and the members of the other party in the legislature.
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Our vain and selfish citizenry is our real problem
 
Luther said:
Our vain and selfish citizenry is our real problem
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I will give you this much.....our Electorate has turned decidedly transactional as has our politicians running for office. It used to be that campaigns were opportunities for candidates to express their arguments more than they were commitments to a particular Bill or EO or Action of a sort and the Electorate for the most part voted for candidates that had some ability to prove they could THINK and could actually frame an argument. You would often hear a friend say "I am not sure about candidate XYZ's position but I can see how he got to that position" with said friend voting that way for that reason. Notice how much that parallels what we should expect from Judges and Justices as well, only it should always be more so for Judges and Justices. They should always be chosen based on the quality of their thinking and their ability to gauge the various arguments put before them, not for their perceived ideology. So that has gone entirely off the rails along with everything else in this country.

Now the arguments politicians make tend to suckass, would not meet the standards for a decent College pre-law session and the Electorate picks away at "stuff they think they want" and then by-God holds elected officials to them once elected. We are currently pretty screwed up.

We can recover. But we won't recover continuing down this path. All we will do is continue to whipsaw the country every four years or so or will become so corrupt while turning a blind eye to it in order to "get our way" that you will in fact hardly be able to tell us from some banana republic. Its really not the first time but it does feel worse mainly because we are bombarded by media of all types just addicted to the whipsaw effect, either to feed their ratings or feed their likes or feed their blogs and podcasts, what the frig ever. Worse we are bombarded almost if not in fact in real time and continually.
 
jnug said:
I will give you this much.....our Electorate has turned decidedly transactional as has our politicians running for office. It used to be that campaigns were opportunities for candidates to express their arguments more than they were commitments to a particular Bill or EO or Action of a sort and the Electorate for the most part voted for candidates that had some ability to prove they could THINK and could actually frame an argument. You would often hear a friend say "I am not sure about candidate XYZ's position but I can see how he got to that position" with said friend voting that way for that reason. Notice how much that parallels what we should expect from Judges and Justices as well, only it should always be more so for Judges and Justices. They should always be chosen based on the quality of their thinking and their ability to gauge the various arguments put before them, not for their perceived ideology. So that has gone entirely off the rails along with everything else in this country.

Now the arguments politicians make tend to suckass, would not meet the standards for a decent College pre-law session and the Electorate picks away at "stuff they think they want" and then by-God holds elected officials to them once elected. We are currently pretty screwed up.

We can recover. But we won't recover continuing down this path. All we will do is continue to whipsaw the country every four years or so or will become so corrupt while turning a blind eye to it in order to "get our way" that you will in fact hardly be able to tell us from some banana republic. Its really not the first time but it does feel worse mainly because we are bombarded by media of all types just addicted to the whipsaw effect, either to feed their ratings or feed their likes or feed their blogs and podcasts, what the frig ever. Worse we are bombarded almost if not in fact in real time and continually.
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I will give you this much.....our Electorate has turned decidedly transactional as has our politicians running for office
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But, our problems are much deeper than pertaining to elections etc....

There's also the culture war

I believe most Americans don't even know what it is to be an American
 
Luther said:
Our vain and selfish citizenry is our real problem
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Hi, and thanks for the response. I don't take quite as dark a view of my fellow Americans. I do think that a large number of voters are swayed by arguments which agree with their prejudices on a 'gut' level. Their reasons for climbing on the bandwagon of this or that candidate or party may have little to do with actual facts.

That said, and excepting the 'true believers'* in the crowd, people can learn and can change their views given time and evidence. [Ed.: And perhaps a nudge from their peers.]

Regards.

* The True Believer, book by Eric Hoffer, quod vide.
 
Torus34 said:
Hi, and thanks for the response. I don't take quite as dark a view of my fellow Americans. I do think that a large number of voters are swayed by arguments which agree with their prejudices on a 'gut' level. Their reasons for climbing on the bandwagon of this or that candidate or party may have little to do with actual facts.

That said, and excepting the 'true believers'* in the crowd, people can learn and can change their views given time and evidence. [Ed.: And perhaps a nudge from their peers.]

Regards.

* The True Believer, book by Eric Hoffer, quod vide.
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I don't take quite as dark a view of my fellow Americans
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That's your right. But I do... Americans don't even know what it is to be American anymore(my opinion)

It starts with the fundamentals
 
Lisa said:
Are we culpable because we weren't taken in by a fast-talking racist con man and a sexual predator who has now committed impeachable offenses? Hillary certainly wasn't my first choice but when given the choice between Hillary and Donald Trump, supporting her was an easy decision to make.
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The ones who voted for her over Berney Sanders in the Primary are the culpable for Trump being president. I voted for Sanders in the primary because he was the only honest candidate on the ticket at that time. I am still wondering how many Berney fans just did not go out and vote once Berney was screwed in the primary.
 
charliebrown said:
The ones who voted for her over Berney Sanders in the Primary are the culpable for Trump being president. I voted for Sanders in the primary because he was the only honest candidate on the ticket at that time. I am still wondering how many Berney fans just did not go out and vote once Berney was screwed in the primary.
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I voted for Bernie, but I also voted for sHillary as the lesser of two evils. She wasn't my first choice but she was politically competent, rational and experienced.
 
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