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So When Will Pelosi Call the Vote?

Why not? Gingrich put Susan Mcdougal behind bars for a year & a half! And that was over an extra-marital affair. Do you not think Trump's actions are not more heinous? I certainly do.

I would've jailed Lewandowski before he could leave the floor, and then see who else wants to be a tough guy. I bet they'd all come running to the House in a heart beat ...

Locking up our political opponents? Aren't we're supposed to be better than they are?

I think Lewandowski was the reason they didn't want to let Giuliani testify in an open hearing. One clown act was enough.
 
Indication? What the hell are you talking about. Without an Impeachment Inquiry vote, you rob the subpoena power from the accused. This ain't gonna happen. Without the vote you don't have an Impeachment Inquiry, you have a witch hunt and nobody at the WH is going to provide you with anything no matter how much you cry about obstruction.

If Pelosi had the vote she would ram it down Trumps throat. EVERYBODY knows she doesn't have the vote or she would go get it. What a crock.

LOL There is no cross examination in a Grand Jury and that is what the Houses job is for impeachment. They make the charges and the Senate has the trial. There will be plenty of time for Trump to subpoena witnesses in the Senate trial. You must have missed civics class that day. Besides subpoena power means nothing when they need a majority vote to happen. The Dems would just vote them down.
 
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I tend to do just a bit of reading on legal matters when not doing historical research, simply because I find it of interest. Today, jumping from one blog to a website to another, I ended up at The Bulwark
The Bulwark is a project of the Defending Democracy Together Institute. DDTI is a 501(c)(3) organization dedicated to preserving America’s democratic norms, values, and institutions, and educating the public on conservative principles like rule of law, free trade, and expanding legal immigration.

Their headline article today was written by Philip Rotner, focused on the letter written by Trump attorney, Pat Cipollone. Anyway, just to check, I bounced over to Mr Rotner's website and read his attack on the 8-page letter written by Mr Cipollone to Speaker Pelosi; a letter supposedly providing legal defence of the President's refusal to cooperate with Congress.

I think, don't know - but think - that some will find it worth a read.
Trump and Cipollone’s Made-Up Defense of Stonewalling Is a Fraud

Donald Trump’s sweeping attempt to prevent witnesses from testifying before the House committees conducting impeachment inquiries is an act of lawlessness. Full stop.

In theory, there’s nothing wrong about a president pushing back against congressional encroachments into legitimately perceived executive authority.

But there’s a difference between protecting executive turf and stonewalling.

And Trump has crossed that line, by a mile.
(. . .)
Cipollone’s legal argument, such as it is, has two prongs:

(1) The inquiry is “constitutionally invalid” because the full House hasn’t voted to authorize it; and

(2) The inquiry violates Trump’s due process rights to cross-examine witnesses, call witnesses, and present evidence.

This “constitutional-validity” argument is simply made up.

There is nothing whatsoever in the U.S. Constitution requiring the full House to vote on an impeachment inquiry (as opposed to passing articles of impeachment), and Cipollone doesn’t cite a single provision of the Constitution—or even a single statute, or court decision, or even a dodgy law-review article in support of his proposition.
(. . .)
The due process argument is just as bad.

Cipollone understandably cites no authority of any kind in support of an argument that the target of an impeachment investigation has due process rights to call and cross-examine witnesses or present evidence during the investigation phase of the inquiry (as opposed, of course, to the trial phase, should the inquiry ever reach that point).

OK, you Trumpians - do you have a response based on settled law that refutes Mr Rotner's statement?
 
looks like a lot of unanswered questions remain from article.

I like this line



bet that's Brennan and Clapper:lol:

And they are correct it is not the AG's job to run around chasing conspiracy theories for the President.
 
Because this is Impeachment. There is nothing more serious that a congress can do other than vote to go to war.

The Minority gets certain privileges that they do not get in an Impeachment Inquiry until there is a floor vote. This Congress is full of snakes and idiots like Nunes who will gum up the works to no end before the committees can even sift through all of Trump's malfeasances and sort the merely interesting from the truly heinous and Impeachable. That is the job the various committees are doing right now. They however will not produce Articles of Impeachment. Judiciary will do that.

The Minority will get the privileges it wants at the point when there in only one committee left and only the actual work of developing Articles to be done. The craven sniveling GOP snakes of Judiciary really can't do much damage to the process at that point. They will still try and they will gum it up as much as they can as that has been the WH and GOP strategy regarding everything, little defense offered, lots of gumming up done. But they won't be able to gum up the works that badly at the point when the individual committee work is done and only Judiciary remains.

They will have their shot at exercising privileges at the point when there is only one committee working. They just won't get much of a chance to gum up the works which is their real intent. If each Minority Panel gets to do it in all 6 committees, it will be 2028 before they ever even get out of those committees.

There are no subpeona powers for the minority when they will require a majority vote so the Trumpettes are dreaming. There is no cross examination in a Grand Jury either. Just like a Grand Jury, the Houses job is to simply gather evidence, make the charges and send them to the trial in the Senate. Then the defense gets to call witnesses. That is how the founders wrote it.
 
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Agreed. Though I would prefer if subpoena's required a majority House vote.

What do you think about pursuing contempt charges, like done with Susan McDougal? I'm all for it.
I'd say hit them where it hurts: their pockets.

Hold an inherent contempt vote and fine all those who defy House subpoenas serious cash. These citations never expire and are not subject to pardon, as they are not crimes against the US.

The courts have ruled that Congress has the right to make this judgment call, so long as the subpoena can be deemed reasonable.
 
This whole process is specifically to beat Trump on election day. It's all about getting the facts before the public. If Trump gets removed in the process, that's just icing on the cake. Nov 3rd 2020 is the real focus.

I suppose I see it, but I think failing to remove him from office will set him up as a sympathetic figure, as hard as that is to imagine. I don't like to think it would make the difference, but it could.

I'd rather spend the time and political capital trying to find a more palatable Dem candidate, though that seems unlikely at this stage.

So I guess have fun, with any luck I won't have to tell anyone I told you so in 2021.
 
Where does it say in the Constitution that an anonymous Whistle Blower, who we just found out worked directly for Biden, can Impeach a president. This is why they didn't go for the vote. You keep quoting those articles while the Democrats are exposed for the fraud party they are. This is the biggest scam this country has ever seen.
With all respect, now you're really producing nonsense here in the bolded.

I do not say this antagonistically or with any disrespect, but you might consider taking a good close look at how the Constitution works, and most importantly what law, legal concepts, and precedent derived from it.

There's often great con-law classes that can be taken at the undergrad university level, that are sometimes available to non-law-students I very luckily got to take one as an undergrad elective, and I swear it was one of the most eye-opening and interesting classes I've ever taken. Rigorous as hell, as much hard work as any of my math & science classes, and with unbelievably competitive fellow students - many of whom were in concurrently enrolled in the school of law. But it was worth every moment.
 
I really think the problem here is a combination of blind partisan ship, along with a lack of education on the Constitution.

In some cases..... a furtive effort is one suggesting a lack of knowledge and we do have some of those here. However we also have folks talking big and bold that have no earthly idea what they are talking about and that is the voice of the propagandist.....all conviction and bluster supported by nothing. You can tell their knowledge is about an Internet query deep and without even the knowledge base to understand the result from a decent Internet query. But still they are all conviction and bluster like they actually know what they are talking about. Thats the voice of the propagandist.
 
You don't know Pelosi very well. She is very cautious and very very adept and all stop until she is go. She will see this Impeachment business through to the end. Take it to the bank.

I doubt it, it looks more like pressure from the rest of the party pushed her more than she did it voluntarily.
 
No House rules haven't changed at all. You can't force the WH to participate in an Impeachment investigation if you don't have an actual Impeachment Inquiry voted on and passed in the House.

The fact that Pelosi doesn't call for the vote shows the voters this isn't an Impeachment proceeding, its a partisan hack again. Until both sides have the ability to subpoena witnesses, there is no Impeachment Inquiry.

Refusing to ask for the vote means you don't have the vote or the evidence to get a vote. Nothing else matters and no amount of what people think Pelosi can and can't do matters.

The Speaker "speaks" for the House and when she calls for an inquiry that means it is done. There are no cross examinations in the House either. They are the Grand Jury and the Trial is held in the Senate. That is when your side can subpoena to your hearts content. If you don't like it take it up with the Founders.
 
I tend to do just a bit of reading on legal matters when not doing historical research, simply because I find it of interest. Today, jumping from one blog to a website to another, I ended up at The Bulwark

Their headline article today was written by Philip Rotner, focused on the letter written by Trump attorney, Pat Cipollone. Anyway, just to check, I bounced over to Mr Rotner's website and read his attack on the 8-page letter written by Mr Cipollone to Speaker Pelosi; a letter supposedly providing legal defence of the President's refusal to cooperate with Congress.

I think, don't know - but think - that some will find it worth a read.


OK, you Trumpians - do you have a response based on settled law that refutes Mr Rotner's statement?

Ya, keep researching...you're doing great. I've been trying to find that letter for two days but I couldn't remember the attorney's name.

Thanks for posting it:).
 
Locking up our political opponents?
Not locking-up "political opponents", but enforcing contempt against those that obstruct justice.

Aren't we're supposed to be better than they are?
We are. We're attempting to provide justice, they're trying to obstruct it.


I think Lewandowski was the reason they didn't want to let Giuliani testify in an open hearing. One clown act was enough.
Q.E.D.
 
With all respect, now you're really producing nonsense here in the bolded.

I do not say this antagonistically or with any disrespect, but you might consider taking a good close look at how the Constitution works, and most importantly what law, legal concepts, and precedent derived from it.

There's often great con-law classes that can be taken at the undergrad university level, that are sometimes available to non-law-students I very luckily got to take one as an undergrad elective, and I swear it was one of the most eye-opening and interesting classes I've ever taken. Rigorous as hell, as much hard work as any of my math & science classes, and with unbelievably competitive fellow students - many of whom were in concurrently enrolled in the school of law. But it was worth every moment.

That sounds like a fun class to be in. I would enjoy something like that. I congratulate you for having the fortitude to enrich yourself to that degree. We need more educated people in this country. I was a high school to flight school (US Army) so I didn't pursue a higher education in the electives. My life was tied up in avionics, NOE flying, weaponry, and helicopter flight dynamics.

My point is, Trump opened the door for Pelosi telling her he won't provide any documents unless she takes the vote from the House for an Impeachment Inquiry. She now has the opportunity to slam Trump, get the vote, and ram it down his throat. She won't do it.

Until there is an Impeachment Inquiry vote, the accused has no rights for subpoena. How is this fair? So the WH makes it clear, we are not going to provide any documents or individuals for testimony until you hold the vote. This was a public statement.

I am not saying Pelosi doesn't have the right to do what she is doing. What I am saying is she is making this look like a partisan hack job by refusing to get the vote. It tells the voters she doesn't have the evidence and she doesn't have the vote. Why would she do this any other way if she did and you will NEVER convince voters to believe this is real unless you go through the motions.

She has no excuse to withhold the House for participating (Including Republicans) to be involved in this vote.
 
There are no subpeona power when they require a majority vote so the Trumpettes are dreaming. There is no cross examination in a Grand Jury either. The Houses job is to simply gather evidence, make the charges and send them to the trial in the Senate. Then the defense gets to call witnesses. That is how the founders wrote it/

In a formal or an actual Impeachment, the Minority gets to petition to call their own witnesses for one thing. Could you imagine how much they could gum up the works of the 6 Committees if they could do that.
"Mr Chairman, I move that we call Yogi Berra to testify"

Chairman: "It might be a little difficult to get Yogi here Congressman and I fail to see the relevance."

Congressman: "Never the less Mr Chairman, I move that we call Yogi Berra"


Chairman: All in favor say yes....a whimper from the Minority. All opposed say NO....screaming somewhat louder from the Majority.

"Mr Chairman, I call for a recorded vote."

and on and on and on. Imagine how much they can gum up the works with that nonsense going on and its not just calling witnesses. Gumming up the works is really all the Repugs have. Trump is getting buried under a mountain of evidence now.

Trump made two giant mistakes:
- facilitating Rudy who is just going to sink Trump. Rudy can't help himself. Rudy's main accomplices in this scheme are all now either in jail or prison and two of them were assisting him from jail, Manafort and Firbish. The other two were just arrested trying to leave the country.
- Trump's second mistake was withholding the military aid and making that call himself to Zalinsky. Trump might have been able to throw Rudy under the bus and get away with it if it were not for that.

The Repugs will get their shot at the sort of process privileges they get under the rules of a formal Inquiry, but not until there is only one committee left doing its work....the last one....Judiciary.
 
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The Speaker "speaks" for the House and when she calls for an inquiry that means it is done. There are no cross examinations in the House either. They are the Grand Jury and the Trial is held in the Senate. That is when your side can subpoena to you hearts content. If you don't like it take it up with the Founders.

You should put that on a billboard. But you will never sell it to the voters. THis is already failing faster than it started. Now we find out a CIA operative that worked with Biden is the WB? Please
 
LOL There is no cross examination in a Grand Jury and that is what the Houses job is for impeachment. They make the charges and the Senate has the trial. There will be plenty of time for Trump to subpoena witnesses in the Senate trial. You must have missed civics class that day. Besides subpoena power means nothing when they need a majority vote to happen. The Dems would just vote them down.
But remember, it's not really a "trial". The process is analogous to a trial, but there's no due process nor is there the possibility of judicial review. The removal process will follow whatever process John Roberts decides upon. That is, if McConnel allows the articles to be brought to the floor.
 
You should put that on a billboard. But you will never sell it to the voters. THis is already failing faster than it started. Now we find out a CIA operative that worked with Biden is the WB? Please

Your problem is that you see conspiracies everywhere, except where they are really happening. Guilliani's 2 Ukraine henchmen got arrested today trying to flee the country. Doesn't that worry you even a little? Here they are with Trump all smiles.

6Z4HHUGQHBHCDNJM54T43TDGHY.jpeg
 
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But remember, it's not really a "trial". The process is analogous to a trial, but there's no due process nor is there the possibility of judicial review. The removal process will follow whatever process John Roberts decides upon. That is, if McConnel allows the articles to be brought to the floor.

Regardless my point about the House being the "Grand Jury" is correct. Their job is to gather evidence and make the charges not to try the case. The Trumpists think they can cross examine a Grand Jury when that is not the time or place for it.
 
That sounds like a fun class to be in. I would enjoy something like that. I congratulate you for having the fortitude to enrich yourself to that degree. We need more educated people in this country. I was a high school to flight school (US Army) so I didn't pursue a higher education in the electives. My life was tied up in avionics, NOE flying, weaponry, and helicopter flight dynamics.

My point is, Trump opened the door for Pelosi telling her he won't provide any documents unless she takes the vote from the House for an Impeachment Inquiry. She now has the opportunity to slam Trump, get the vote, and ram it down his throat. She won't do it.

Until there is an Impeachment Inquiry vote, the accused has no rights for subpoena. How is this fair? So the WH makes it clear, we are not going to provide any documents or individuals for testimony until you hold the vote. This was a public statement.

I am not saying Pelosi doesn't have the right to do what she is doing. What I am saying is she is making this look like a partisan hack job by refusing to get the vote. It tells the voters she doesn't have the evidence and she doesn't have the vote. Why would she do this any other way if she did and you will NEVER convince voters to believe this is real unless you go through the motions.

She has no excuse to withhold the House for participating (Including Republicans) to be involved in this vote.


Yep, the bolded words by Condor were the basis of the WH's public statement but as the article by Mr Rotner that I quoted in post #128, states:
Cipollone’s legal argument, such as it is, has two prongs:

(1) The inquiry is “constitutionally invalid” because the full House hasn’t voted to authorize it; and

(2) The inquiry violates Trump’s due process rights to cross-examine witnesses, call witnesses, and present evidence.

This “constitutional-validity” argument is simply made up.

There is nothing whatsoever in the U.S. Constitution requiring the full House to vote on an impeachment inquiry (as opposed to passing articles of impeachment), and Cipollone doesn’t cite a single provision of the Constitution—or even a single statute, or court decision, or even a dodgy law-review article in support of his proposition.
(. . .)
The due process argument is just as bad.

Cipollone understandably cites no authority of any kind in support of an argument that the target of an impeachment investigation has due process rights to call and cross-examine witnesses or present evidence during the investigation phase of the inquiry (as opposed, of course, to the trial phase, should the inquiry ever reach that point).
 
I tend to do just a bit of reading on legal matters when not doing historical research, simply because I find it of interest. Today, jumping from one blog to a website to another, I ended up at The Bulwark

Their headline article today was written by Philip Rotner, focused on the letter written by Trump attorney, Pat Cipollone. Anyway, just to check, I bounced over to Mr Rotner's website and read his attack on the 8-page letter written by Mr Cipollone to Speaker Pelosi; a letter supposedly providing legal defence of the President's refusal to cooperate with Congress.

I think, don't know - but think - that some will find it worth a read.


OK, you Trumpians - do you have a response based on settled law that refutes Mr Rotner's statement?
That strikes me as an accurate opinion. But I'll add more: The Senate "trial", is not really a trial. It is analogous to a trial, but is not subject to judicial review. So to say there is "due process" is somewhat obtuse, as there is no way to provide judicial review against the Constitution. Nixon v United States (1993) specifically precludes SCOTUS involvement. The Senate process, "due or not", will be whatever John Roberts says it will be.
 
Your problem is that you see conspiracies everywhere, except where they are really happening. Guilliani's 2 Ukraine henchmen got arrested today trying to flee the country. Doesn't that worry you even a little? Here they are with Trump all smiles.

6Z4HHUGQHBHCDNJM54T43TDGHY.jpeg

Isn't that a pretty picture? That is Pence's shoulder sticking into the shot just to make it perfect.
 
I'd say hit them where it hurts: their pockets.

Hold an inherent contempt vote and fine all those who defy House subpoenas serious cash. These citations never expire and are not subject to pardon, as they are not crimes against the US.

The courts have ruled that Congress has the right to make this judgment call, so long as the subpoena can be deemed reasonable.
I guess I'm just old-school in believing nothing motivates like the prospect of three hots and a cot at the grey-bar hotel ... ;)
 
You should put that on a billboard. But you will never sell it to the voters. THis is already failing faster than it started. Now we find out a CIA operative that worked with Biden is the WB? Please

I have no idea where you dreamed up this idea.
 
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