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A Shutdown Reveals the Transformation of the GOP

Helix said:
i didn't know that one person could make those unilateral decisions, either. i hope that a sane congress in the future will do something to address that.
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Agreements made by the Executive Branch and not formalized as Treaties are only agreements.

Agreements are not Treaties.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
We have spent the last 40-50 years depowering Congress as we added powers to the Office of President.....there were some voices in the wilderness along the way who claimed that this was not such a hot idea but we did not care.
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"We" is the Congress.

The witless, spineless thieves in both houses of Congress are only too willing to abdicate their responsibility as long as they get re-elected.

In the mean time, the Imperial Power of the Presidency is being grown by every succeeding occupant of the Oval Office regardless of Party affiliation.
 
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Helix said:
i'm ready to see it go the other way. this one person trade war stuff is unnerving.
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The Trade war is resulting in various good things.

Increased numbers of good manufacturing jobs that were thought to be impossible 3 years ago are impressive. Wage rates higher. Unemployment at historic lows. Minority employment at its highest for all demographics in decades.

The feared increases in the prices of the Chinese goods has not materialized due to the revaluing China imposes on its currency.

Price of gas is below $2.00 in Indianapolis.

All of these are good things. Again, the real world is in variance with liberal talking points.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-why-manufacturing-jobs-growth-has-been-so-strong-2018-08-03
 
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Checkerboard Strangler said:
It is not an assumption, it is conjecture based on both his past behavior and the behavior of other tyrants who express open admiration for dictators.
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Did the other tyrants you are thinking about also strive to increase the personal freedoms of all of their citizens regardless of Race, Gender or Creed?
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Reinforcing the fact that you support would-be dictators who wouldn't hesitate to use a manufactured terrorist attack as a means of dismantling constitutional values and assuming the mantle of tyranny? You're very welcome.

Just know this: It won't last. And if past history is any yardstick, it won't kind to the people who supported him.
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What terrorist attack are you thinking of?
 
Rogue Valley said:
A Shutdown Reveals the Transformation of the GOP

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The Trump/McConnell government shutdown of 2018/2019.



The supposed party of fiscal conservatism exists no more. From the tax-reform bonanza for the wealthy to billions demanded for Trumps medieval 13th century wall, the GOP is exploding the federal deficit.

The federal budget deficit swelled to $779 billion in fiscal year 2018, driven in large part by a sharp decline in corporate tax revenues after the Trump tax cuts took effect. The deficit rose nearly 17 percent year over year.

The deficit will top $1 Trillion in 2019. And no, I don't want to hear the assured 2019/2020 budget-deficit-crocodile-tear-cries of the GOP that we need SS and Medicare 'reforms'. (a euphemism for a wooden stake).
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Don't want to talk about the amount added to the debt, do you?
 
Helix said:
i didn't know that one person could make those unilateral decisions, either. i hope that a sane congress in the future will do something to address that.
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I did not know that the president could unilaterally do away with international treaties.

You both should have gotten the hint when another president openly stated all he needed was his pen and phone, then dropped a couple hundred billion on a runway in direct violation of a law he had signed a couple months before. And an never signed non treaty treaty.

And no I don't think this is a good idea. Executive should be reined back by half. Legislative should do their job, and Judicial should stick to deciding matters of Constitutionality. I doubt that will ever happen again.
 
code1211 said:
Social Security is an excellent example of Government waste. This is not due to the wisdom of or need for the program but rather to the administration of the program.

Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme that will continue to take more and more of every paycheck to support more and more people living longer and longer.

Social Security needs to be revised to operate more like a 401k plan to accumulate the monies and then more like an Annuity to distribute the monies. In this way there is NO budgetary cost to the program.

This was suggested by newt in the 90's and was dismissed by the shrieking Liberals in the Congress and the Media.

This one move could balance the budget and eliminate the debt in 50 years. Failing to make this conversion is utterly stupid and completely Congressional.
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I can see investors salivating on the money coming their way under Newt's/your plan. Seems to me it's best to have SS as is, in a trust fund and as a baseline for retirement planning, raising taxes or trimming benefits if needed, with generous tax breaks for private savings, 401k's, etc.

The problem with solutions the GOP proposes is not much different than when it suggests stuff about Medicare from time to time. Conservatives are not trusted by us on the left and many in the center, I imagine, due to their historic antipathy to government programs. (Paul Ryan's story that he dreamed of getting rid of Medicaid while in college is both absurd and chilling at the same time. Most kids dream of getting laid.) Just look at the GOP freak out over the ACA. As one conservative put it about Obamacare, we can't have yet another program that might show people that government can do something positive.

Mentioned this before: a significant number of republicans voted for SS; then came Medicare -- with Reagan promising that it would all but make us slaves -- but it got some, tho fewer GOP votes; the ACA got none, I believe. While most/all of the conservatives in other countries have come to grips with welfare states, such as they are, the current GOP seems to want to go to pre Roosevelt times -- Teddy, not Franklin.
 
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Captain Adverse said:
Well study your history.

The precedent was set by Jimmy Carter, then President Carter when he unilaterally withdrew the United States from the Sino American Mutual Defense Treaty back in January 1980.
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Thanks for the info. To be clear, I was not suggesting that Trump is the first president to do such things. I was surprised to learn that presidents could do that.

The problem that I think comes of this is other nations can never truly trust the U.S. We elect a new president and he can simply with the stroke of a pen do away with any agreement the U.S. is party to. Since we by law must change presidents at least every 8 years, no agreement beyond that timeframe can be relied up upon by our allies and trading partners. This does not make for strong relationships. And Trump has strained many of those relationships to the limit, IMO.
 
code1211 said:
The Trade war is resulting in various good things.

Increased numbers of good manufacturing jobs that were thought to be impossible 3 years ago are impressive. Wage rates higher. Unemployment at historic lows. Minority employment at its highest for all demographics in decades.

The feared increases in the prices of the Chinese goods has not materialized due to the revaluing China imposes on its currency.

Price of gas is below $2.00 in Indianapolis.

All of these are good things. Again, the real world is in variance with liberal talking points.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-why-manufacturing-jobs-growth-has-been-so-strong-2018-08-03
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starting a trade war with our friends was the unilateral decision of a panting fool. like i said, i hope that a sane congress eventually makes sure that this doesn't happen again.
 
code1211 said:
"We" is the Congress.

The witless, spineless thieves in both houses of Congress are only too willing to abdicate their responsibility as long as they get re-elected.

In the mean time, the Imperial Power of the Presidency is being grown by every succeeding occupant of the Oval Office regardless of Party affiliation.
Click to expand...

This has been going on for decades but I have heard little complaint from the so-called journalists or from think tanks or from the citizens or from anyone else.

At the end of the day we are all of America...we did this.
 
code1211 said:
Did the other tyrants you are thinking about also strive to increase the personal freedoms of all of their citizens regardless of Race, Gender or Creed?
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Emotional rhetoric not backed up by facts, and sourced from an orwellian lexicon that attempts to define freedom as "disappearing choices narrowed down to expensive and largely unaffordable".
It's what a lot of people call "freedumb"

It's a cheap parlor trick.
"What's wrong with you, why are you against freedom?"
 
Nickyjo said:
I can see investors salivating on the money coming their way under Newt's/your plan. Seems to me it's best to have SS as is, in a trust fund and as a baseline for retirement planning, raising taxes or trimming benefits if needed, with generous tax breaks for private savings, 401k's, etc.

The problem with solutions the GOP proposes is not much different than when it suggests stuff about Medicare from time to time. Conservatives are not trusted by us on the left and many in the center, I imagine, due to their historic antipathy to government programs. (Paul Ryan's story that he dreamed of getting rid of Medicaid while in college is both absurd and chilling at the same time. Most kids dream of getting laid.) Just look at the GOP freak out over the ACA. As one conservative put it about Obamacare, we can't have yet another program that might show people that government can do something positive.

Mentioned this before: a significant number of republicans voted for SS; then came Medicare -- with Reagan promising that it would all but make us slaves -- but it got some, tho fewer GOP votes; the ACA got none, I believe. While most/all of the conservatives in other countries have come to grips with welfare states, such as they are, the current GOP seems to want to go to pre Roosevelt times -- Teddy, not Franklin.
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Addressing only Social Security:

I started contributing to a 401K type fund years AFTER I started contributing to the SS Fund. I'll realize similar amounts from the two revenue sources after retirement in a couple months.

Both are guaranteed for life. The payments from SS will be an ever increasing drain on the US Treasury constantly inflating both the deficit and debt.

The payments from the Annuity will be a source of tax revenue to the Treasury contributing revenue to pay down both the deficit and the debt.

If I die the day before I retire, the monies paid to SS will evaporate from my point of view. No value to me or my heirs for the money set aside.

If I die the day before I retire, my heirs will inherit 100's of thousands of dollars from the cash-out of the Annuity. Real value for the money set aside.

In the current system of Social Security, the cost is high today, the future burden is ever increasing and there is no possibility of of enhanced inheritance to survivors.

The current SS System serves a good purpose, but is costly, inefficient and does not allow the heirs to receive the unused value of the contributions.

I'm about to start receiving benefits from the SS Administration and I thank you very much for you generosity as the following generations will help support me in my Golden Years, but still question the wisdom of not correcting the idiocy and wastefulness of the system.

If it is possible to gain the superior benefits at a far lower cost, why not do it?
 
Helix said:
starting a trade war with our friends was the unilateral decision of a panting fool. like i said, i hope that a sane congress eventually makes sure that this doesn't happen again.
Click to expand...

To assure that a President cannot undo a Treaty, the Senate will need to actually do something.

Not very likely.

As long as our Elected Senators can shirk their responsibility and still stay on the Gravy Train, they will.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
This has been going on for decades but I have heard little complaint from the so-called journalists or from think tanks or from the citizens or from anyone else.

At the end of the day we are all of America...we did this.
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So true. We are frogs in slowing warming water.
 
Helix said:
i didn't know that one person could make those unilateral decisions, either. i hope that a sane congress in the future will do something to address that.
Click to expand...

Not likely, because passing 'fill in the blanks' legislation gets congress off the hook and has thus given them a re-election rate of over 90%. Many folks foolishly blame the POTUS for the federal 'budget' mess while congress critters continue to borrow and spend away, adding ever more pork, in relative anonymity (most voters can't even name their three current congress critters).
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Emotional rhetoric not backed up by facts, and sourced from an orwellian lexicon that attempts to define freedom as "disappearing choices narrowed down to expensive and largely unaffordable".
It's what a lot of people call "freedumb"

It's a cheap parlor trick.
"What's wrong with you, why are you against freedom?"
Click to expand...

After Trump took office, he cut taxes and reduced regulations.

Reducing taxes grants me more freedom as does reducing regulation.

This is what is happening in the real world. Where do you live?
 
code1211 said:
Addressing only Social Security:

I started contributing to a 401K type fund years AFTER I started contributing to the SS Fund. I'll realize similar amounts from the two revenue sources after retirement in a couple months.

Both are guaranteed for life. The payments from SS will be an ever increasing drain on the US Treasury constantly inflating both the deficit and debt.

The payments from the Annuity will be a source of tax revenue to the Treasury contributing revenue to pay down both the deficit and the debt.

If I die the day before I retire, the monies paid to SS will evaporate from my point of view. No value to me or my heirs for the money set aside.

If I die the day before I retire, my heirs will inherit 100's of thousands of dollars from the cash-out of the Annuity. Real value for the money set aside.

In the current system of Social Security, the cost is high today, the future burden is ever increasing and there is no possibility of of enhanced inheritance to survivors.

The current SS System serves a good purpose, but is costly, inefficient and does not allow the heirs to receive the unused value of the contributions.

I'm about to start receiving benefits from the SS Administration and I thank you very much for you generosity as the following generations will help support me in my Golden Years, but still question the wisdom of not correcting the idiocy and wastefulness of the system.

If it is possible to gain the superior benefits at a far lower cost, why not do it?
Click to expand...

You make a good argument, one that might influence change if bought by Congress. But it seems folks are ok with the system. I presume reforms will happen down the road if necessary. I believe SS is viewed or was designed as a sort of insurance, not a pension, and it covers things other than payments to old folks. I don’t get insurance premiums back, nor do I get Medicare payments back if I die before age 65.
 
Nickyjo said:
You make a good argument, one that might influence change if bought by Congress. But it seems folks are ok with the system. I presume reforms will happen down the road if necessary. I believe SS is viewed or was designed as a sort of insurance, not a pension, and it covers things other than payments to old folks. I don’t get insurance premiums back, nor do I get Medicare payments back if I die before age 65.
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You pay into SS all your working life. I'll be damned if the GOP is going to shut down SS to pay for their 2017 tax-cuts for the wealthy.

The SS program can always be tweaked with a higher payroll deduction.
 
Nickyjo said:
You make a good argument, one that might influence change if bought by Congress. But it seems folks are ok with the system. I presume reforms will happen down the road if necessary. I believe SS is viewed or was designed as a sort of insurance, not a pension, and it covers things other than payments to old folks. I don’t get insurance premiums back, nor do I get Medicare payments back if I die before age 65.
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People who are getting Social Security are generally pretty suspicious of those trying to change things. This is really a change that would affect and benefit those in the future.

By making this change, there are various enhancements that will benefit both the users and the Government. The cost to the government will disappear and the benefits to the users will rise.

The other systems you mention would probably not produce that kind of a benefit.

To help put his into perspective, Life Expectancy when the retirement age was set at 65 was below 65. To have a similar mile marker today, the retirement age would need to be around 78 or so.

The system has a good intent and a noble purpose, but it is hopelessly out dated.
 
code1211 said:
After Trump took office, he cut taxes and reduced regulations.

Reducing taxes grants me more freedom as does reducing regulation.

This is what is happening in the real world. Where do you live?
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I'll tell you where I DON'T live anymore...Mansfield, Texas.
The neighboring town of Midlothian is a study in the effects of "cutting regulations willy nilly" the way Trump is doing.
Midlothian is host to either five or six monster size cement plants. Its nickname is "Concrete City".
It has also historically been at or near the top in the number of birth defects per capita year in and year out.

On hot summer days where the wind blows from Midlothian into Mansfield, you sometimes need to hide in the bathroom for a little while with the shower turned all the way to HIGH so that the steam takes down the stinging choking particulate matter that permeates everything, even through closed sealed windows.

And that tax cut is almost universally regarded as a boondoggle for all but the very wealthiest.
Your definition of "freedom" is suspect.
A lot of people refer to your use of the word with an epithet: freedumb.

I am not the least bit impressed by your lame broadside and blindfolded defense of the Moron in the White House.
 
code1211 said:
To assure that a President cannot undo a Treaty, the Senate will need to actually do something.

Not very likely.

As long as our Elected Senators can shirk their responsibility and still stay on the Gravy Train, they will.
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i support removing or changing the loophole that lets him engage in unilateral trade wars.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Not likely, because passing 'fill in the blanks' legislation gets congress off the hook and has thus given them a re-election rate of over 90%. Many folks foolishly blame the POTUS for the federal 'budget' mess while congress critters continue to borrow and spend away, adding ever more pork, in relative anonymity (most voters can't even name their three current congress critters).
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it's probably not likely to happen unless congress changes considerably. however, i'm talking about what i support.
 
Helix said:
it's probably not likely to happen unless congress changes considerably. however, i'm talking about what i support.
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With a re-election rate of over 90%, congress is not likely to change considerably. I share your hope for change. ;)
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
I'll tell you where I DON'T live anymore...Mansfield, Texas.
The neighboring town of Midlothian is a study in the effects of "cutting regulations willy nilly" the way Trump is doing.
Midlothian is host to either five or six monster size cement plants. Its nickname is "Concrete City".
It has also historically been at or near the top in the number of birth defects per capita year in and year out.

On hot summer days where the wind blows from Midlothian into Mansfield, you sometimes need to hide in the bathroom for a little while with the shower turned all the way to HIGH so that the steam takes down the stinging choking particulate matter that permeates everything, even through closed sealed windows.

And that tax cut is almost universally regarded as a boondoggle for all but the very wealthiest.
Your definition of "freedom" is suspect.
A lot of people refer to your use of the word with an epithet: freedumb.

I am not the least bit impressed by your lame broadside and blindfolded defense of the Moron in the White House.
Click to expand...

Were the cement plant you cite built after November 2016?
 
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