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1. Trump is in over his head

So you are convinced he is guilty of conspiracy with Russia but you cant even venture a guess as to what this conspiracy looked like or who took part in it. Got it. And this after 2+ years of investigation. You guys have become the new 9/11 Truthers.

Like I said it did not take 2 years to see the conspiracy but conspiracies are notoriously hard to prove. It takes a little time but Mueller is up to the job and guilty pleas are a good way to do it.
 
Russia helped Trump win the election without question :yes:

Trumps campaign was compromised, Cambridge Analytica, Wikileaks, Fancy Bear/Cozy Bear hacking, Trump aides talking to Russians about removing sanctions, Trump Tower meeting, etc.

The list goes on and on. Mueller's Report is going to make for some reading this country has never seen.

So lay out this conspiracy for me: what did Trump do and who else was involved?
 
Like I said it did not take 2 years to see the conspiracy but conspiracies are notoriously hard to prove. It takes a little time but Mueller is up to the job and guilty pleas are a good way to do it.

Great, so what was the conspiracy? What do YOU think happened?
 
I am not demanding proof of anything. I am asking people to speculate about how they think this supposed conspiracy went down and who was involved. To date, no one has been willing or able to do that.

Oh if speculating is all we're doing that looks very simple:

From the facts available: Trump acquaintance Goldstone contacted the Trump campaign and invited them to a meeting with Russian agent Veselnitskaya. Don Jr said 'I love it' and along with Kushner and Manafort he attended the meeting.

Speculation: That part is the conspiracy to work with foreign agents to affect the outcome of an election, because the purpose of the meeting was to collect opposition dirt on Clinton.

Of course the campaign claims (or claimed, story kept changing) it was to discuss post election policy vis-a-vis orphans and sanctions - something else they shouldn't have been doing as they cannot conduct shadow diplomacy with future promises while not even in office yet; others suspect it was to share stolen emails from the DNC or other opposition research. That part is also speculation: we have to choose which version or versions of the reasons for the meeting we wish to believe.

The next part is also speculation, for which we will have to wait for confirmation in the Mueller report: that Trump himself knew about the meeting and directed his people to attend. There is no reason not to believe that the man at the top had knowledge of the meeting, and the fact that his story also kept changing after the fact strongly suggests a guilty conscience. Trump supporters will scream there's no PROOF TM (yet) but it defies simple logic to imagine he didn't sign off on it. Still I have to admit, that remains speculation - well-founded speculation, an educated guess, logical based on the evidence, but speculation nonetheless.

That's how I think it went down in a nutshell. Obviously the Mueller investigation is looking at how multiple threads tie it all together but the initial conspiracy apparently centers on that meeting.
 
So lay out this conspiracy for me: what did Trump do and who else was involved?

Trump repeatedly lied about his dealings with the Russians knew they were the source of the hacked e-mails from the start for example. He even asked the Russians for more hacking and they unsuccessfully even tried to comply with the request.

“I will tell you this: Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” he said. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

The president was encouraging a foreign adversary to illegally hack into messages by a former secretary of state that might contain sensitive information, then release them publicly.

Trump had good reason to believe that Russia was listening. The previous month, his son, Donald Jr.; son-in-law, Jared Kushner; and campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, had a meeting at Trump Tower with Russians who they believed were offering damaging information about Clinton. (The meeting wasn’t revealed to the public until 2017, and both the Russians and the Trump campaign officials say no dirt was exchanged.) Prior to the meeting, Trump Jr. had received an email stating that the meeting was “ part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”

Mueller’s indictment offers new evidence that Russia was listening—and acting on Trump’s request. The indictment charges 12 officers of the GRU, Russia’s military-intelligence agency, with hacking intended to interfere with the election.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/russia-hacking-trump-mueller/565157/
 
Oh if speculating is all we're doing that looks very simple:

From the facts available: Trump acquaintance Goldstone contacted the Trump campaign and invited them to a meeting with Russian agent Veselnitskaya. Don Jr said 'I love it' and along with Kushner and Manafort he attended the meeting.

Speculation: That part is the conspiracy to work with foreign agents to affect the outcome of an election, because the purpose of the meeting was to collect opposition dirt on Clinton.

Of course the campaign claims (or claimed, story kept changing) it was to discuss post election policy vis-a-vis orphans and sanctions - something else they shouldn't have been doing as they cannot conduct shadow diplomacy with future promises while not even in office yet; others suspect it was to share stolen emails from the DNC or other opposition research. That part is also speculation: we have to choose which version or versions of the reasons for the meeting we wish to believe.

The next part is also speculation, for which we will have to wait for confirmation in the Mueller report: that Trump himself knew about the meeting and directed his people to attend. There is no reason not to believe that the man at the top had knowledge of the meeting, and the fact that his story also kept changing after the fact strongly suggests a guilty conscience. Trump supporters will scream there's no PROOF TM (yet) but it defies simple logic to imagine he didn't sign off on it. Still I have to admit, that remains speculation - well-founded speculation, an educated guess, logical based on the evidence, but speculation nonetheless.

That's how I think it went down in a nutshell. Obviously the Mueller investigation is looking at how multiple threads tie it all together but the initial conspiracy apparently centers on that meeting.

So the entire diabolical collusion effort boils down to that single meeting where nothing happened Okay.
 
Trump repeatedly lied about his dealings with the Russians knew they were the source of the hacked e-mails from the start for example. He even asked the Russians for more hacking and they unsuccessfully even tried to comply with the request.



https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/russia-hacking-trump-mueller/565157/

If he was working privately with the Russians why did he publicly ask them for help finding the emails? And where is the crime in any of that?
 
If he was working privately with the Russians why did he publicly ask them for help finding the emails? And where is the crime in any of that?

Trump prefers to break laws in full view on the incorrect assumption that it makes it not a crime. You seem to have the same learning disability.
 
So the entire diabolical collusion effort boils down to that single meeting where nothing happened Okay.

Not the whole thing, as below.


That's how I think it went down in a nutshell. Obviously the Mueller investigation is looking at how multiple threads tie it all together but the initial conspiracy apparently centers on that meeting.

So while it is not everything the TT meeting is very important. The question of whether Trump knew ahead of time is yet to be offcially answered by the special counsel's findings. Whether it was indeed to get opposition research or other help from a foreign government is so far almost certainly known to be so.

Now it comes down to whose story we choose to believe:

1. Trump and Trump alone; or
2. Everyone else - many of the people in involved including his own son; the FBI and other intelligence agencies; the special counsel's office with the entire investigative weight of the DOJ behind it.

Add to that the president's phenomenal capacity for lying and it looks like a no brainer he colluded with the Russians. Are we really to take Donald J Trump at his word at this stage?
 
Obama was worthless and we put up with him for 8 years.We can put up with Trump for 6 more.

That is some serious Obama derangement syndrome your carrying. So pay back for Obama is a lying, draft dodging old perv with questionable financial ties ? Classy !!
 
If he was working privately with the Russians why did he publicly ask them for help finding the emails? And where is the crime in any of that?

He asked publicly because he thought it sounded good on stage and he says the first thing to come into his mind. That's why the government is now shut down over his fantasy wall.

As for where the crime is: if he asked a hostile foreign power to use its intelligence apparatus to hack the emails of a rival candidate that is a crime. Unless asking the hostile regimes for election interference and calling for computer theft have suddenly been made legal.
 
When you gotta go back a century to find an instant where dems were actually right about something, you got nothing. And thats with me accepting your premise.


Try offering something of substance, that can't be easily refuted.

You might feel better.

I won't waste my time on that one, it's child's play.
 
So lay out this conspiracy for me: what did Trump do and who else was involved?


I don't care if Trump conspired with Russians or not. I do care if he is found to be a criminal, a big time criminal.


Mueller might have evidence of that, there's a lot of Russian money laundering going on in his hotels, some Panamanian drug lord laundry, too.

We shall see.
 
Try to hold yourself together for another 22 1/2 months and you can vote in a replacement. Thats how things work in this country. You vote a guy in for 4 years. If you dont like what he is doing, you can vote him out. If you like what he is doing, you can vote him back.

You really think the founding fathers expected us to endure a brazen criminal and utter incompetent for their full term? Term limits should apply only to those who are worthy of the post. No, the vote is the way you choose a president, it's not how you punish corrupt ones. We shouldn't have to wait for Trump to be prosecuted any more than a cop should have to wait for a traffic offender to pull over of his own volition before mentioning the offense. With crimes, it's better to actually intervene than to ignore them.

I'm once again concerned that you're serious. What brand of shameless sycophancy are you using to replace justice and democracy here? Upon what principle should the American people allow themselves to be harmed? Holy ****!
 
You really think the founding fathers expected us to endure a brazen criminal and utter incompetent for their full term? Term limits should apply only to those who are worthy of the post. No, the vote is the way you choose a president, it's not how you punish corrupt ones. We shouldn't have to wait for Trump to be prosecuted any more than a cop should have to wait for a traffic offender to pull over of his own volition before mentioning the offense. With crimes, it's better to actually intervene than to ignore them.

I'm once again concerned that you're serious. What brand of shameless sycophancy are you using to replace justice and democracy here? Upon what principle should the American people allow themselves to be harmed? Holy ****!
We endured Obama for 8 bad years. Democrats can do the same with Trump in charge.
 
...Presidential politics does not have that much of an impact on our lives anyway, unless we let it.
...and if you let it, I feel you do not have much of a life anyway.
It is time to take up an enjoyable hobby if you think whoever is sitting in the oval office has a direct impact on your personal life...

It's usually presidents who propose to Congress the direction of the country and polices that they pass into law. If you don't think that tax rates, tax cuts, how much hazardous material youre exposed to, how the stock market reacts to an incompetent president and I won't even mention the national security implications, effect you, must not get out much.

Why hasnt Flynn been charged with treason then? In fact, if Flynn is such a monster why did prosecutors recommend zero prison time?

Why are you playing so dumb? I do not belive you don't know how a plea deal works...
 
It's usually presidents who propose to Congress the direction of the country and polices that they pass into law. If you don't think that tax rates, tax cuts, how much hazardous material youre exposed to, how the stock market reacts to an incompetent president and I won't even mention the national security implications, effect you, must not get out much.



Why are you playing so dumb? I do not belive you don't know how a plea deal works...

1. Taxes do not affect me in any way. They are part of that whole "death and taxes" thing. You can let them raise your blood pressure and pay them, or you can just pay them.
2. Presidents do not affect the stock market in any effective way either. Presidents do not control it. The overall economy does. Remember how all the liberals said the market was going to crash the day Trump got elected. They were wrong because elections do not control what happens in the market. Investments do. You need to get out more or read a book on the subject.
3. I used to live in Deer Park, TX where there are over 30 chemical plants. So toxic environments don't cause me alarm. I probably have more toxic chemicals in my bloodstream than a death row injectee.
4. ...and as a regional director of a major hotel chain, I got out plenty. Still do. How many states and foreign countries have you been to?

YOUR sky can fall all around you if you want it too. Mine is just fine.
You see, I don't scare easy, and I am not a liberal alarmist who searches daily for things to be alarmed and frightened by.

CORRECTION:
Unless you bring a little green tree frog into the room. Then I hike up my skirt and run out of the room screaming like a little girl.
Look up RANIDAPHOBIA. (I think I spelled it right)
 
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I don't care if Trump conspired with Russians or not. I do care if he is found to be a criminal, a big time criminal.


Mueller might have evidence of that, there's a lot of Russian money laundering going on in his hotels, some Panamanian drug lord laundry, too.

We shall see.

So in other words you support a witch hunt against the guy.
 
You really think the founding fathers expected us to endure a brazen criminal and utter incompetent for their full term? Term limits should apply only to those who are worthy of the post. No, the vote is the way you choose a president, it's not how you punish corrupt ones. We shouldn't have to wait for Trump to be prosecuted any more than a cop should have to wait for a traffic offender to pull over of his own volition before mentioning the offense. With crimes, it's better to actually intervene than to ignore them.

I'm once again concerned that you're serious. What brand of shameless sycophancy are you using to replace justice and democracy here? Upon what principle should the American people allow themselves to be harmed? Holy ****!

What crimes are yo talking about?
 
Why are you playing so dumb? I do not belive you don't know how a plea deal works...
Explain Flynns deal then. Why hasnt he been charged with treason? Why hasnt anyone? In fact, why hasnt anyone been charged with anything in relation to the 2016 campaign?
 
2. He's not up to the job

3. He's risen to the level of his own incompetence ( The Peter Principle )

4. His vast crimes are becoming known

5. He's becoming the pariah of the world

6. He's becoming unhinged, erratic, delusional

7. America is in deep do do

Among all of his other failings he has Donald Duck can't read a map and if he had anybody who could, he has run him off by now. He is not the first US President that could not read a map. He is the first one in my memory that does not even try to learn and that runs off anybody that knows how. THAT is a dangerous dangerous President.

Most telling and most obvious result, not the allies that were skeptical of Trump from the start, but those that bought in hook line and sinker from the start now moving away from him and from us at the same time coupled with adversaries licking their chops at Trump's absurdity.
 
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"We" includes me, and I assure you, "we" cannot.

6 more years of Trump would be an utter and complete disaster for this country. Simply no other way to put it. If Trump were allowed to continue to set this country back at the rate of his first two years for two more years he will easily beat my most distressing estimates for how far back he would set this country in just 4 years, let alone 8.
 
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