Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACHA

iguanaman · Jun 23, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

FastPace said:
Just out of curiosity, why can't individual states fund it?

If individual states can't afford then why and how exactly does the Federal Government necessarily always have the money and means to finance everything?

I'm asking because while I know somethings about economics I don't know everything about economics. I know the US (Federal) debt-to-GDP ratio now exceeds the US GDP and the US dollar can just be printed up. I know Russia has tied their currency to their commodities (if they ever could not pay a debt to a country in rubles they could ship commodities to that country in the equivalent worth) and since that have some state owned energy companies portions of profits from one or more of those companies can go to funding their universal health care system.

So, while states in the US can't just print up money, can't they just increase their debt and increase state taxes to fund whatever it is they want to fund?

States must operate with a balanced budget unlike the Federal Govt. which can spend more on defense than the next 7 Countries combined. Also the AHC was self-funding because of taxes levied on corporations and wealthy Americans.

iguanaman · Jun 23, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
Yes they will. You can even make an appointment for a specific time at many urgent care facilities here in our town.

Emergency rooms are the most expensive from of treatment in our entire HC system and we pay for it in our premiums, but since you are made of money, that is your preference. Some of us want a better deal.

ataraxia · Jun 23, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
Yes they will. You can even make an appointment for a specific time at many urgent care facilities here in our town.

First of all, most urgent care centers, unlike ERs, are not legally required to see you.

Second of all, neither urgent care centers nor ERs see you for "free" if you are uninsured. The ER may see you if you have an urgent problem, but then will send you a bill about 10 times the cost of a visit to a family doc. If you can't pay, then a number of things may happen. You may be sent to collections, and/or your credit rating will be destroyed, and/or the hospital will charge and me higher to defray the costs of the uninsured patient.

CriticalThought · Jun 23, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

Captain Adverse said:
Now I'm going to ignore all the ACHA stuff because to be honest I am not that interested.

Instead, I am going to respond to the bolded part only. Sixty-Three percent (63%) of old people in "nursing homes." :shock:

How is this a good thing? I remember an era when people took care of their parents like their parents took care of them...in their OWN homes.

Now, people with enough money, or people who prefer to depend on Medicaid, stuff their elders away in nursing homes because it's just easier than having to deal with them at home.

No one wants to change their diapers or lift them out of bed...forgetting that's exactly what they did when you were too young to do it for yourself. You can't even think of it, it's just tooo much trouble in your busy lives.

Instead, put them in a home with other "elders" in the care of people who make crap wages and consider such "care" just a job they have to get done.

Perhaps people should stop thinking of storing their elders away, out of sight and mind except for the monthly visits to make themselves feel better.

Of course this could be a result of the "Me" mentality, single parent homes, unmarried moms and men who refuse to take responsibility for their families. :shrug:

IMO we need to start remembering they are FAMILY and should be cared for by their own families. Just saying. :coffeepap:

Volunteer to take care of a disabled elderly person for a week and then come back and read what you wrote. Until you have firsthand experienced the time, energy, money, and stress of that work you know nothing. You want to know how things worked in the good old days with the elderly? They died. 65 was set as the age for Social Security because people were not expected to live much past that age. Now we have people living much longer and it creates new problems that didn't exist before. This fantasy you have that people cared for their families in the old days is just that, a fantasy. If you didn't have the means to care for the old then they went without care.

Puigb · Jun 23, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
He said everybody is going to be taken care of. Which is not any kind of change from what we have now or what we had before Obamacare.

Actually, he promised government funded universal healthcare. Your political messiah...lied.

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

ataraxia said:
First of all, most urgent care centers, unlike ERs, are not legally required to see you.

Second of all, neither urgent care centers nor ERs see you for "free" if you are uninsured. The ER may see you if you have an urgent problem, but then will send you a bill about 10 times the cost of a visit to a family doc. If you can't pay, then a number of things may happen. You may be sent to collections, and/or your credit rating will be destroyed, and/or the hospital will charge and me higher to defray the costs of the uninsured patient.

Nevertheless, the urgent care centers, emergency rooms, and hospitals ARE required to treat people who need care whether or not they can pay. Private physicians, however, are not required to take patients they don't want.

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

Puigb said:
Actually, he promised government funded universal healthcare. Your political messiah...lied.

Private Citizen Trump may have thought that, but candidate Trump knew better. That was what Obama wanted however. We have that on video too that he said he wanted to get to universal single payer but knew he would have to ease into it. It was just after Obamacare performed so miserably he lost interest and didn't consider it further as he went looking for something he could claim as his legacy as President.

Puigb · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
Private Citizen Trump may have thought that, but candidate Trump knew better. That was what Obama wanted however. We have that on video too that he said he wanted to get to universal single payer but knew he would have to ease into it. It was just after Obamacare performed so miserably he lost interest and didn't consider it further as he went looking for something he could claim as his legacy as President.

Trump WAS candidate Trump when he said that. It was in September 2015, when he was already running for the GOP nomination. In the video he even stated "It's an UnRepublican thing for me to say".

So again, Trump, while running for president as a so called "conservative Republican"...promised that if he was elected he'd make sure everyone was covered, and that the government would pay for it. Why did "Republican conservative" candidate Donald Trump lie about that?

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

Puigb said:
Trump WAS candidate Trump when he said that. It was in September 2015, when he was already running for the GOP nomination. In the video he even stated "It's an UnRepublican thing for me to say".

So again, Trump, while running for president as a so called "conservative Republican"...promised that if he was elected he'd make sure everyone was covered, and that the government would pay for it. Why did "Republican conservative" candidate Donald Trump lie about that?

In the video he said everybody would be taken care of. And the government would take care of those who couldn't take care of their own healthcare. He didn't say that the government would pay for everybody's healthcare.

Puigb · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
In the video he said everybody would be taken care of. And the government would take care of those who couldn't take care of their own healthcare. He didn't say that the government would pay for everybody's healthcare.

lol, yes he did. Which is why he SPECIFICALLY said "This is an Unrepublican thing for me to say".

Christ, why are you in such denial? Just man up and admit Trump lied.

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

Puigb said:
lol, yes he did. Which is why he SPECIFICALLY said "This is an Unrepublican thing for me to say".

Christ, why are you in such denial? Just man up and admit Trump lied.

Maybe because I listened to what he actually said instead of what you want him to have said.

Puigb · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
Maybe because I listened to what he actually said instead of what you want him to have said.

Yes, we know the Trumpsters are the best are interpreting what Trump says, more specially, what they want to believe what Trump said.

JasperL · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

Captain Adverse said:
Now I'm going to ignore all the ACHA stuff because to be honest I am not that interested.

Instead, I am going to respond to the bolded part only. Sixty-Three percent (63%) of old people in "nursing homes." :shock:

How is this a good thing?

I think you misread the OP, but at any rate about 5% of seniors are in a nursing home. Very few at age 65 and up to 25% of the very oldest seniors.

And while I agree to some extent with your broader point - ideally we ought to care for them at home - it's just not always possible. Just for example, my wife's grandmother lived alone, a couple miles from her son, until on her own choice she moved to assisted living around age 90 or so. She liked it better - stuff to do, people to talk to, etc. She did spend the last few months in a "nursing home" but at that point she was incredibly ill, was bed ridden, and needed 24 hour care. Her son (my father in law) tried to provide it but they just could not. He was in his late 60s at that point, and you'll just have to take my word for it that they were UNABLE to care for her. Period. And they were retired, and pretty well off - money was not the problem nor was having a job. For many families, both will pose incredibly serious barriers.

No doubt many nursing home residents should be at home with their kids, but many times that's also just not possible, even with the best intentions.

JasperL · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
He said that his healthcare reform aims to provide access to insurance for everybody. He didn't say that the government would cover everybody as your assigned talking points might infer or as a hostile media may have reported it.

It's always amazing how Trump defenders always have to explain what he REALLY meant. Seems to me we ought to be able to rely on what he says, and not different words put in his mouth after he does not do what he says.

“We’re going to have insurance for everybody,” Trump said in an interview with The Washington Post. “There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can’t pay for it, you don’t get it. That’s not going to happen with us.”

Pretty clear to me. Insurance for everybody. I will concede Trump contradicted himself seems like every other day on something, so I guess anyone who believed ANYTHING he said wasn't all that bright about it, but what's clear is he did NOT run as a typical conservative on healthcare. He ran like a populist, or liberal, on that subject - promised to take care of the poor, working class, and this bill will fail them.

And of course he also promised no cuts to Medicaid. Another broken promise - the Senate version he supports will cut a $trillion or so over 10 years.

Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
I was the first & only potential GOP candidate to state there will be no cuts to Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid. Huckabee copied me.

JasperL · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
Just like it did under Clinton, under Bush, under Obama--you get treatment at E.R. or urgent care or in the hospital whether or not you have insurance or can pay.

LOL, you've got the bar all the way on the ground and are mashing it with your boot trying to lower it further. Pretty hilarious. You have to know NO ONE listened to him say what he did during the campaign and believed he was basically promising them a trip to ER and bankruptcy.

ataraxia · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
Nevertheless, the urgent care centers, emergency rooms, and hospitals ARE required to treat people who need care whether or not they can pay. Private physicians, however, are not required to take patients they don't want.

Sure. Now if you just have a chronic condition like high blood pressure, or glaucoma, which can be routinely monitored 2-3 times a year at a doctor's office, with the visits at about $60 each and the meds at about for $10/month, do you still think it's a better idea to wait until people are having a heart attack or going blind at 3 am to get it treated in the ER for a single $5000 visit?

independentusa · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

Actually what i said that Medicaid paid for 63% of people in nursing homes, not that 63% of the elderly were in nursing homes.

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

Puigb said:
Yes, we know the Trumpsters are the best are interpreting what Trump says, more specially, what they want to believe what Trump said.

At least we try to be honest about what he says.

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

JasperL said:
It's always amazing how Trump defenders always have to explain what he REALLY meant. Seems to me we ought to be able to rely on what he says, and not different words put in his mouth after he does not do what he says.

Pretty clear to me. Insurance for everybody. I will concede Trump contradicted himself seems like every other day on something, so I guess anyone who believed ANYTHING he said wasn't all that bright about it, but what's clear is he did NOT run as a typical conservative on healthcare. He ran like a populist, or liberal, on that subject - promised to take care of the poor, working class, and this bill will fail them.

And of course he also promised no cuts to Medicaid. Another broken promise - the Senate version he supports will cut a $trillion or so over 10 years.

Intellectually honest people go with what the person obviously meant, and not what they wish the person had actually said so they could more honorably attack it.

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

JasperL said:
LOL, you've got the bar all the way on the ground and are mashing it with your boot trying to lower it further. Pretty hilarious. You have to know NO ONE listened to him say what he did during the campaign and believed he was basically promising them a trip to ER and bankruptcy.

I'm sure you believe that. And since you want to attack him instead of what is actually being proposed, I'm sorry but that gets really old and really boring really fast. Do have a nice day.

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

ataraxia said:
Sure. Now if you just have a chronic condition like high blood pressure, or glaucoma, which can be routinely monitored 2-3 times a year at a doctor's office, with the visits at about $60 each and the meds at about for $10/month, do you still think it's a better idea to wait until people are having a heart attack or going blind at 3 am to get it treated in the ER for a single $5000 visit?

Nobody is suggesting that either. Nobody has suggested taking Medicare away from the elderly or Medicaid away from the poor. I do wish some folks on the left had it in them to be intellectually honest about the actual proposal instead of looking for things to demonize. They would have so much more credibility. Have a pleasant day.

JasperL · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
Intellectually honest people go with what the person obviously meant, and not what they wish the person had actually said so they could more honorably attack it.

I don't know why I can't just listen to his words. Why the need to interpret "insurance for everybody" or that he won't make cuts to Medicaid. What's your excuse for that one? No cuts meant not more than $2 Trillion in Medicaid cuts, or perhaps he meant he wouldn't ELIMINATE all Medicaid funding? I need to ask a true believer I guess because I interpret "no medicaid cuts" to mean "no medicaid cuts" which is crazy, you're telling me, I have to see behind the words to what he REALLY meant!

JasperL · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
I'm sure you believe that. And since you want to attack him instead of what is actually being proposed, I'm sorry but that gets really old and really boring really fast. Do have a nice day.

What did he propose, exactly? I have a feeling you're going to try to somehow try to convince me that "insurance for everybody" and "no cuts to medicaid" meant insurance for 20 million fewer people and massive cuts to Medicaid.

ataraxia · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

AlbqOwl said:
Nobody is suggesting that either. Nobody has suggested taking Medicare away from the elderly or Medicaid away from the poor. I do wish some folks on the left had it in them to be intellectually honest about the actual proposal instead of looking for things to demonize.

Meanwhile, back here in the real world,

Deep cuts to Medicaid put rural hospitals in the crosshairs - Jun. 24, 2017

AlbqOwl · Jun 24, 2017

Re: Do you want to know the real number of people to lose their health care under ACH

JasperL said:
I don't know why I can't just listen to his words. Why the need to interpret "insurance for everybody" or that he won't make cuts to Medicaid. What's your excuse for that one? No cuts meant not more than $2 Trillion in Medicaid cuts, or perhaps he meant he wouldn't ELIMINATE all Medicaid funding? I need to ask a true believer I guess because I interpret "no medicaid cuts" to mean "no medicaid cuts" which is crazy, you're telling me, I have to see behind the words to what he REALLY meant!

Because when you say medicaid cuts you portray as some sinister evil thing that will drown puppies, kill people, drive people to bankruptcy etc. Instead of looking at it objectively as to what the bill actually proposes and assessing it honestly, there is this constant knee jerk reaction to make it look as evil as possible no matter what the truth actually is. The Democrats have been doing this consistently by portraying reduction in the increase in spending as budget cuts. It isn't.

I don't expect or ask anybody to agree when there is honest and arguable differences of opinion on how things are done. But that doesn't happen. It is accuse, blame, attack, mischaracterize, raise up images of hateful, racist, sexist, selfish evil, etc. And that is not useful in addressing any problem or achieving any productive goal.