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What makes a country "great" and is there a "greatest country" right now?

Ahlevah said:
Oh, pulleze. :roll: Lumumba's been dead for almost sixty years. How long is the Left ~
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So you acknowledge the part the Americans played in replacing a legitimate leader of an African country but somehow asking you to acknowledge your continued support and installation of Mobutu Sese Seko is to do with "left" and "right?"

Shows you are totally ignorant of who Larry Devlin was and his role for America in destroying the Congo.

Anyhow, this matters little. Despite Western stewardship of Africa which left the continent ruined - the Chinese have in 20 short years turned around the prospects for Africa.

ZA22330_fig4.png



Yes, they are driven by as much self-interest as the West was but they are following Western Germany's principal of long term industrial strategy. Building, not destroying; supporting, not corrupting.

China launched a ‘new’ Africa policy at the turn of the century, culminating in the establishment in October 2000 of the multilateral Forum on China-Africa Co-operation (FOCAC). Since then China has carefully set out and implemented three-year Africa engagement plans.
To date China has participated in over 200 African infrastructure projects. Chinese enterprises have completed and are building projects that are designed to help add to or upgrade about 30,000km of highways, 2,000km of railways, 85 million tonnes per year of port throughput capacity, more than nine million tonnes per day of clean water treatment capacity, about 20,000MW of power generation capacity, and more than 30,000km of transmission and transformation lines
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So, does this make China "great?" No, certainly not when you judge by its treatment of Uyghur muslims but greater than America? Right now, yes - greater to Africa than America is.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
That implies that having strong borders is important to a country's sovereignty. Is that what you intended to say?
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No, it implies that geography is a major contribution to the success and failure of a nation. I know you would prefer it to mean what you think, though.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
No, it implies that geography is a major contribution to the success and failure of a nation. I know you would prefer it to mean what you think, though.
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I prefer no such thing, how jaded of you to presume. The apparent implication since the US, for all practical purposes, has used the Atlantic and the Pacific as defensive borders which prevented any major attack through the World Wars. The Zimmerman Telegram's intent highlights this fact. In Europe and Asia where countries always had to be aware of their neighbors and the strongest country often marching into their neighbors throughout history. The same use of a water border could be said of Great Britain.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
I prefer no such thing, how jaded of you to presume. The apparent implication since the US, for all practical purposes, has used the Atlantic and the Pacific as defensive borders which prevented any major attack through the World Wars.
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The exact implication is that the nature of being surrounded by two bodies of water affords one a natural barrier that no other nation on Earth enjoys.

What you were trying to do, very obviously, was imply it had something to do with official borders, thereby allowing you to spin it into an immigration debate.

Try harder next time.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
The exact implication is that the nature of being surrounded by two bodies of water affords one a natural barrier that no other nation on Earth enjoys.

What you were trying to do, very obviously, was imply it had something to do with official borders, thereby allowing you to spin it into an immigration debate.

Try harder next time.
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What a world without wonder where everything is obvious to you. I've spun nothing, I've been very explicit in the discussion and it started with a question to clarify the intent of your point.

If all you want is to put up straw men for my views, then you aren't worth the effort.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
What a world without wonder where everything is obvious to you. I've spun nothing, I've been very explicit in the discussion and it started with a question to clarify the intent of your point.

If all you want is to put up straw men for my views, then you aren't worth the effort.
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You're right, you aren't worth the effort, because your "subtlety" at implications is as obvious as a freight train. Stick to staying on the sidelines and making snide remarks. It suits you better.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
So you acknowledge the part the Americans played in replacing a legitimate leader of an African country but somehow asking you to acknowledge your continued support and installation of Mobutu Sese Seko is to do with "left" and "right?"
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You mean the Belgians? ;) Look, I don't really want to get into a detailed political debate about Congolese politics from sixty years ago. There were a lot of moving parts, including Cold War politics. I was trying to answer the thread's question as to what is it that makes a country great, and my answer, first and foremost, would be adherence to the rule of law. I also alluded to the idea that tribal and ethnic rivalries can be a big problem when it comes to a nation's development. A successful society needs some sense that members share a common purpose.

Regarding the Congo, let me just say that from the start there was tension between three major ethnic groups, and this was evidenced by the fact that Lumumba's party didn't gain one parliamentarian from Katanga. The place was ripe for civil war, and history has born that out with millions of dead Congolese. Ultimately, the people of a nation are responsible for their own fate, and the Congo chose its own through warfare. But we see the same pattern of tribalism, warfare, patronage, and corruption all over the continent: in Nigeria, Angola, Rwanda, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Sudan, Libya, Ivory Coast--pick a country. I suppose you blame us for all of it, even though the United States never was a colonial power in Africa. That was all Euros. Nonetheless, Euros will probably be blaming us for the continent's woes one hundred years from now even though Americans have thrown more money and aid down the Africa rathole than any other country on the planet.
 
Ahlevah said:
You mean the Belgians? ;) Look, I don't really want to get into a detailed political debate about Congolese politics from sixty years ago.
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Um... YOU were the one who introduced the Congo into the thread. Now you've had lies exposed it's obvious you'd rather not discuss but like I said - I'm not here to deliver a history lesson however as your post continues with misinformation:

1) The US was the first country to recognise Belgian claims to the territories of the Congo Basin.
2) After atrocities came to light, the US joined other world powers to force Belgium to take over the country as a regular colony.
3) When the US needed uranium for nuclear weapons, it took a majority stake in the colony so as to maintain access to valuable resources.

So, the Cold War naturally meant (as the Soviets were courting African leaders) the US could not afford to lose control of those resources and then when Lumumba dared talk pan-African identity and control of its own resources - the CIA organised and were complicit in his assassination by Belgian forces.

Ahlevah said:
I suppose you blame us for all of it, even though the United States never was a colonial power in Africa. That was all Euros. Nonetheless, Euros will probably be blaming us for the continent's woes one hundred years from now even though Americans have thrown more money and aid down the Africa rathole than any other country on the planet.
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You're both guilty - both Europe and the US. So when you and TAAC come lying on this thread and saying "Oh, look at Congo, all those resources and nothing to show" - it's because of you and complicit European nations. Even now, you are probably not aware of the huge fine on US companies for bribing and continuing to destroy the Congo - with the aid of people like Dan Gertler.
The US didn't have to be a colonial power to help destroy African hope or assassinate its leaders - you used your covert forces to do that dirty work.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Um... YOU were the one who introduced the Congo into the thread. Now you've had lies exposed it's obvious you'd rather not discuss but like I said - I'm not here to deliver a history lesson however as your post continues with misinformation:

1) The US was the first country to recognise Belgian claims to the territories of the Congo Basin.
2) After atrocities came to light, the US joined other world powers to force Belgium to take over the country as a regular colony.
3) When the US needed uranium for nuclear weapons, it took a majority stake in the colony so as to maintain access to valuable resources.

So, the Cold War naturally meant (as the Soviets were courting African leaders) the US could not afford to lose control of those resources and then when Lumumba dared talk pan-African identity and control of its own resources - the CIA organised and were complicit in his assassination by Belgian forces.
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I used the Congo to illustrate what DOESN'T make a country great because it's probably the most egregious example--a country endowed with abundant natural wealth and beauty which nonetheless remains an economic and political basket case almost sixty years after its independence thanks to... ethnic rivalries, corruption, cronyism, and endless warfare. :doh You seem to be arguing that all would have been sweetness and light had Lumumba just been given a chance to cozy up more to his Soviet advisers. In asserting that claim, you have a tough row to hoe, because, besides being based largely on conjecture, there isn't a long list of pro-Soviet "democrats" who turned out to be actual democrats who led their people to the Promised Land. They talked the talk, but once in power they failed to walk the walk.

In a nutshell, more than half-a-century of failed states can't be simply explained away as the result of Western Imperialism. Besides, the "ethnic Katangese" couldn't stand Lumumba, either. Presumably they wanted him dead, too. Pan-African unity? There wasn't even national unity. :doh But keep dreaming! :2wave:
 
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ocean515 said:
Bernie Sanders would vault the US into oblivion. He would need help in Congress, but for the sake of discussion.

The US is not a socialist country. It never will be. If people want the stifling safety net of Socialism, they should move to a country who has a governmental system that embraces it.
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So capitalism is DOA if Sanders is elected?

No. End of discussion.
 
Ahlevah said:
I used the Congo to illustrate what DOESN'T make a country great
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A favourite way to demean a whole continent often used by people who don't read history or worse still - understand the currents of history. Usually because there is an all-too-obvious agenda behind it.

Ahlevah said:
~ a country endowed with abundant natural wealth and beauty which nonetheless remains an economic and political basket case almost sixty years after its independence thanks to... ethnic rivalries, corruption, cronyism, and endless warfare.
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This moronically ignores factual history. I stated in my first post please go do some basic research. It’s clear you haven’t bothered but seem to have your history dictated to you from the white nationalists history playbook.

Ahlevah said:
~ all would have been sweetness and light had Lumumba just been given a chance to cozy up more to his Soviet advisers. In asserting that claim, you have a tough row to hoe, because, besides being based largely on conjecture, there isn't a long list of pro-Soviet "democrats" who turned out to be actual democrats who led their people to the Promised Land. They talked the talk, but once in power they failed to walk the walk.
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Cold war. I'm not here to educate you but that's a clue for some starting research for what that meant in Africa and Southern Americas but I'd bet that admitting geo-politics helped put incompetents into power doesn’t register.

Ahlevah said:
~ In a nutshell, more than half-a-century of failed states can't be simply explained away as the result of Western Imperialism.
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Cold war. See above.

Ahlevah said:
~ Besides, the "ethnic Katangese" couldn't stand Lumumba, either. Presumably they wanted him dead, too. Pan-African unity? There wasn't even nationalunity. But keep dreaming!
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A couple other posters tried explaining the significance of colonial imposed borders but you guys are not interested or capable of understanding what that means.
 
Chagos said:
To vent own bias (and enormous it is :mrgreen:)

a) not negatively bloody interfering in my life too much.

b) Spain (in the context of above "a")

When I curb that bias I agree with all the points you raise.;)
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Spain hardly interferes in my life either..... so, I'm assuming if you're American and you live in the US, then every country is greater than the US.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
Spain hardly interferes in my life either..... so, I'm assuming if you're American and you live in the US, then every country is greater than the US.
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Assuming is always dangerous. To wit: I'm neither American nor do I live in the US.
 
ocean515 said:
Triggered much? I wasn't replying to you. Feeling left out and unimportant?
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Aww. Did I hurt your widdle feelings? You gonna tell me to go back where I came from?
 
Chagos said:
Assuming is always dangerous. To wit: I'm neither American nor do I live in the US.
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Sure it is. My point wasn't about whether you're American or not. The point was that if the definition of a "great country" is one that interferes little to nothing in your life, then most foreign countries will be "great" because they don't interfere in your life.
 
neither Spain - Catalonia and neither UK over Scotland and Brexit

America your having a laugh after the treatment of the indigenous Americans of the people of first nation .. who are basically treated as 3rd class citizens, millions homeless living in ten cities above ground and hundreds of thousands living below ground in flood channels around every major city with flood channels plus bullying and destabilising it's neighbours in central and south America

Australia = treatment of the aborigines


.... best country in the world probably either the Republic of Ireland or Switzerland or New Zealand would take my vote
 
Infinite Chaos said:
This moronically ignores factual history. I stated in my first post please go do some basic research. It’s clear you haven’t bothered but seem to have your history dictated to you from the white nationalists history playbook :doh.
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I was wondering when you'd get around to that tired, old leftist standby that's normally a sign the well is running dry. Honestly, I don't view this as a racial issue. The characteristics I described--the lack of the rule of law, ethnic and tribal rivalries, cronyism, political patronage, warfare--we find all over the world: the Middle East, the former Republics of the USSR, Asia, Latin America. And Europeans/Caucasians aren't immune to it. You could take the word "Balkanization" to describe part of what I'm alluding to. The reason I zeroed in on Africa is because: 1) there are numerous countries there; and 2) the continent has about 3,000 distinct tribes/ethnic groups that are the source of a lot of dysfunction. It's a cauldron for factionalism/conflict.

Infinite Chaos said:
Cold war. I'm not here to educate you but that's a clue for some starting research for what that meant in Africa and Southern Americas but I'd bet that admitting geo-politics helped put incompetents into power doesn’t register.
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You need to educate yourself that Lumumba was fighting an insurgency based on the fact that the people who occupied the territory where the wealth was didn't want to share. :lol: Anyway, I'm interested in seeing how you're going to connect the dots demonstrating that countries like Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and Angola were CIA puppets with CIA-installed dictators. You win a pretzel if you can do that.

Mozambique’s 44 years of freedom: Communism, corruption, heroin

Angola: The fall of the dos Santos clan

Zimbabwe tries to retrieve cash smuggled overseas in Mugabe era
 
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Ahlevah said:
I was wondering when you'd get around to that tired, old leftist standby that's normally a sign the well is running dry. Honestly, I don't view this as a racial issue. The characteristics I described--the lack of the rule of law, ethnic and tribal rivalries, cronyism, political patronage, warfare--we find all over the world: the Middle East, the former Republics of the USSR, Asia, Latin America. And Europeans/Caucasians aren't immune to it. You could take the word "Balkanization" to describe part of what I'm alluding to. The reason I zeroed in on Africa is because: 1) there are numerous countries there; and 2) the continent has about 3,000 distinct tribes/ethnic groups that are the source of a lot of dysfunction. It's a cauldron for factionalism/conflict.



You need to educate yourself that Lumumba was fighting an insurgency based on the fact that the people who occupied the territory where the wealth was didn't want to share. :lol: Anyway, I'm interested in seeing how you're going to connect the dots demonstrating that countries like Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and Angola were CIA puppets with CIA-installed dictators. You win a pretzel if you can do that.

Mozambique’s 44 years of freedom: Communism, corruption, heroin

Angola: The fall of the dos Santos clan

Zimbabwe tries to retrieve cash smuggled overseas in Mugabe era
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Congratulations, you've gone in a big fat circle back to my original response to you three in post 92 - that answers your silly question about the countries bordering South Africa. Then to answer your first point, you quoted and agreed with a well known but incompetent white nationalist in post 88.

Seems like you are saving me responding further as you confirm 1) you haven't done any basic reading and 2) you're not interested in reading around history. You basically read what you wanted (probably from very questionable American foundations and websites) and no further. History means reading a vast array around the subject which helps you to piece events and facts together.

I waste no more time with you. You made your mind up before you read the poor quality research you found and your have no interest in changing the reading you do. Goodbye.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Congratulations, you've gone in a big fat circle back to my original response to you three in post 92 - that answers your silly question about the countries bordering South Africa. Then to answer your first point, you quoted and agreed with a well known but incompetent white nationalist in post 88.

Seems like you are saving me responding further as you confirm 1) you haven't done any basic reading and 2) you're not interested in reading around history. You basically read what you wanted (probably from very questionable American foundations and websites) and no further. History means reading a vast array around the subject which helps you to piece events and facts together.

I waste no more time with you. You made your mind up before you read the poor quality research you found and your have no interest in changing the reading you do. Goodbye.
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So now it's not the CIA but the white South Africans who are responsible for the failings of the corrupt, inept Marxist-Leninist-inspired governments of Mozambique, Angola, and Zimbabwe? They, for example, put a gun to Jose Filomeno dos Santos' head and forced him to loot the Angolan central bank? :lol: These governments had, at a minimum, twenty-five years to get their **** together and haven't done it. Why is that? The legacy of apartheid? Scheming, evil white people? :lol: So who's responsible for the corruption in South Africa under the leftist ANC's watch? That's the result of apartheid, too, or are you going to blame the white Americans and Euros who railed against apartheid and supported the divestiture and sanctions movements? But then those are the good white people, right? Or are there any good white people? :confused:

Yeah, I think when logic betrayed me and I'd run out of arguments I'd just obliquely call my opponent a bigot and fold up my tent, too. :surrender

ANC corruption is a major cause of South Africa’s failure – and the polls will show it
 
Ahlevah said:
So now it's not the CIA but the white South Africans who are responsible for the failings of the corrupt, inept Marxist-Leninist-inspired governments of Mozambique, Angola, and Zimbabwe? They, for example, put a gun to Jose Filomeno dos Santos' head and forced him to loot the Angolan central bank? :lol: These governments had, at a minimum, twenty-five years to get their **** together and haven't done it. Why is that? The legacy of apartheid? Scheming, evil white people? :lol: So who's responsible for the corruption in South Africa under the leftist ANC's watch? That's the result of apartheid, too, or are you going to blame the white Americans and Euros who railed against apartheid and supported the divestiture and sanctions movements? But then those are the good white people, right? Or are there any good white people? :confused:

Yeah, I think when logic betrayed me and I'd run out of arguments I'd just obliquely call my opponent a bigot and fold up my tent, too. :surrender

ANC corruption is a major cause of South Africa’s failure – and the polls will show it
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You still don't get it. 95% of Africa's problems are attributable to European colonialism. Your Trumpian denials don't magically erase historical cause and effect.
 
Rogue Valley said:
You still don't get it. 95% of Africa's problems are attributable to European colonialism. Your Trumpian denials don't magically erase historical cause and effect.
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Neither do the South Africans, who, unlike Linus, have grown weary waiting for the Great Pumpkin to shower them with toys:

During the fight against apartheid, the ANC organised as a broad popular front, encompassing different ideologies, from traditionalists such as Zuma to communists and capitalists such as Ramaphosa, in the fight against apartheid. In the post-apartheid era, the ANC held together these disparate groups through state patronage, compromise policies and leveraging the common experience of apartheid oppression.

Now, the gulf between those who receive patronage and those who do not has undermined the ANC’s broad church. Seeking policy compromise within the ANC has often resulted in policy paralysis, and government corruption has led to the adoption of ineffective policies.

The ANC’s corruption is now a major cause of the country’s failure. To deliver a better life for its voters the ANC must renew itself, become honest and adopt better policies. Otherwise, even if it wins today’s election, it will be unable to deliver a better life for those who voted for it.

ANC corruption is a major cause of South Africa’s failure – and the polls will show it
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ANC.jpg

If even the liberals at The Guardian see a problem then that should tell people there's a problem.
 
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