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What makes a country "great" and is there a "greatest country" right now?

We in america have great ideals, we're not so good about practicing the words we write into law. All men are created equal, unless you're black.

For me, that alone tells me our government says one thing and does another. All presidents lie, some for the good of the country, some for their own not so good motives.

Since I've had plenty of time to go around the block a few dozen times, the old neighborhood ain't what it used to be. Neither of my parents went to college and yet we managed to live a middle class life. Home, car, vacation and both of my parents worked for small businesses for years. Mom was a hairdresser and dad was a union teamster. In my opinion, once we got involved in vietnam our ideals became not so ideal and sides starting being drawn. That non war tore america apart and nixon only made the distrust worse and the sides even more polarized. Reagan came along and told his base the government is not the solution, the government is the problem and taxes are evil...and it's been downhill ever since. Bush crashed the economy and now we have trump who is acting more like a dictator than a president.

I was born and raised here, I'm american regardless of where my parents came from. America has great ideals, one day we might even start practicing them.
 
Mustachio said:
What if Mexico was on the border of Germany? Or France? We are where we are because we stole a lot of really valuable land, bought a lot of really valuable land, used constitutional principles from our then homeland (England) to create a society that erupted through the industrial revolution. Right place, right time, right principles. So I challenge your premise. If you were on point, the number of people trying to get into Paris Hilton's party vs. the number of people trying to get into Joe Smith's 45th birthday party would mean that Paris Hilton is way better than Joe Smith. I know Joe, I was at his party, and he's way cooler than Paris Hilton.

You know that old "it's not the destination, it's the journey" saying? I think it's the same with nations. It's not where we are that we should be judged by, but where we're heading. And I don't know if that puts us head and shoulders above the rest of the world.
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I read your post several times, and couldn't make any real sense of it. But thanks for trying.

I will say that if we are to be judged by where we are heading, should liberal progressives take control, we will be heading into oblivion.
 
We're all headed for oblivion anyway, whoever takes control doesn't really matter.
 
It's obviously Scotland. We discovered most things, we invented most other things, (including the US Navy) and just because. I rest my case.
 
ocean515 said:
IMO, Freedom, and opportunity.

Is there a greatest country? Well, I'm a bit biased, so I'll point to the millions who are trying to come to the United States both legally and illegally as evidence of what the world in general thinks.

How that is taken advantage of is up to the individual.
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Know anything about Europe and it's immigrant problems? Puts America's problem in the shade.
 
Manc Skipper said:
It's obviously Scotland. We discovered most things, we invented most other things, (including the US Navy) and just because. I rest my case.
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Invented the 20th Century, the Scots did. There's not any other population so small that had so large an impact.
 
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

My contribution.
 
Mustachio said:
~ You know that old "it's not the destination, it's the journey" saying? I think it's the same with nations. It's not where we are that we should be judged by, but where we're heading. And I don't know if that puts us head and shoulders above the rest of the world.
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bongsaway said:
~ I was born and raised here, I'm american regardless of where my parents came from. America has great ideals, one day we might even start practicing them.
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Both of you made some really good points in your posts but you also finished off with points relevant to many countries. "Greatness" is almost a destination or ideal for a country to aim for - I should almost have asked the question in the OP - which country has the most potential to define and reach "greatness" for itself (and by that I mean all its citizens)
 
Grand Mal said:
Know anything about Europe and it's immigrant problems? Puts America's problem in the shade.
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In the shade? Really? I don't know specific numbers, but with an illegal alien population in the US approaching 6% of the total population, the "immigrant" problem in the US seems to be in some pretty direct sunlight.
 
ocean515 said:
IMO, Freedom,.
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Grandpappy said:
Our strong military makes freedom possible.
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This must be the biggest and boldest propagandistic lie ever told about a country. Or if you want, the most successful and most deceptive association between a country and a certain positive word, while in actually reality the situation being the opposite.

The US and "freedom" - well, there are precisely three freedoms in the US, of which, two belong to the state: the freedom to create countless laws which will then be used to imprison as much population as possible(often for the most trivial, absurd, abusive reasons) and two: the freedom to wage wars against other countries(for whatever reason politicians decide)

The average individual has exactly one freedom: to be put in prison(for one of ... no one knows how many criminals laws, could be 20.000, could be 300.000 - but hey, they must be "obeyed" .. or why not, due to fake complaints, manufactured evidence by prosecutors, etc. - it's fashionable nowadays)

Any other "freedoms" are very relative: come and go randomly, sometimes depend on who knows what or who knows who, sometimes depend on luck(of lack thereof) etc.

Edit: some people will probably ask for evidence... there you are:
the highest rate of incarceration in the world (no, it's not due to police "efficiency" - that's a stupid lie)

a crazily large number of criminal laws(or civil laws that can turn into criminal laws in certain circumstances) - no one knows exactly their number - estimates fluctuate by more than an order of mangitude(that is +10x) about 20.000 to 300.000, but the laws are supposed to be "obeyed"

ocean515 said:
I'll point to the millions who are trying to come to the United States both legally and illegally as evidence of what the world in general thinks.
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So ... you're suggesting that "millions who are trying to come to the United States both legally and illegally" is evidence that people think highly of the US, in general(like individual freedoms, culture, etc,)?
 
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Nilhus said:
This must be the biggest and boldest propagandistic lie ever told about a country. Or if you want, the most successful and most deceptive association between a country and a certain positive word, while in actually reality the situation being the opposite.

The US and "freedom" - well, there are precisely three freedoms in the US, of which, two belong to the state: the freedom to create countless laws which will then be used to imprison as much population as possible(often for the most trivial, absurd, abusive reasons) and two: the freedom to wage wars against other countries(for whatever reason politicians decide)

The average individual has exactly one freedom: to be put in prison(for one of ... no one knows how many criminals laws, could be 20.000, could be 300.000 - but hey, they must be "obeyed" .. or why not, due to fake complaints, manufactured evidence by prosecutors, etc. - it's fashionable nowadays)

Any other "freedoms" are very relative: come and go randomly, sometimes depend on who knows what or who knows who, sometimes depend on luck(of lack thereof) etc.

Edit: some people will probably ask for evidence... there you are:
the highest rate of incarceration in the world (no, it's not due to police "efficiency" - that's a stupid lie)

a crazily large number of criminal laws(or civil laws that can turn into criminal laws in certain circumstances) - no one knows exactly their number - estimates fluctuate by more than an order of mangitude(that is +10x) about 20.000 to 300.000, but the laws are supposed to be "obeyed"


So ... you're suggesting that "millions who are trying to come to the United States both legally and illegally" is evidence that people think highly of the US, in general(like individual freedoms, culture, etc,)?
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Thanks for sharing all the hyperbole.

That was a fair amount of work, considering it's the same anti-US nonsense so many others have attempted.
 
ocean515 said:
In the shade? Really? I don't know specific numbers, but with an illegal alien population in the US approaching 6% of the total population, the "immigrant" problem in the US seems to be in some pretty direct sunlight.
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The USA is nothing if not a nation of immigrants.
 
ocean515 said:
anti-US nonsense
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Why do you call it "nonsense"? Is there anything untrue in what I said?

"anti-US"? Well, I guess ANY nation that has an obsession with overcriminalization and excessive incarceration of its own people, is to be blamed! For some reason, the US sits at the very top of such nations! Why do you have this crazy culture of incarcerating people for the most absurd and trivial things? Don't you think something is wrong with you as a culture?

This is how people are born:
Woman forced to give birth while handcuffed and shackled by police in New York, lawsuit claims

This is how they grow up and have their first encounters with police:
COPS GO BALLISTIC ON 'MISBEHAVING' PRESCHOOLER
4-year-old handcuffed, shackled, hauled off to sheriff's office


Go through adulthood:
Judge frees Pa. inmate who served record term for delinquent alimony account
14-year contempt sentence ends

An then die(and criminal cops get acquitted):
Cop acquitted in beanbag gun death of 95-year-old vet

NONE of the above should EVER happen in a country where freedom and human rights are given ANY consideration!
 
Nilhus said:
Why do you call it "nonsense"? Is there anything untrue in what I said?

"anti-US"? Well, I guess ANY nation that has an obsession with overcriminalization and excessive incarceration of its own people, is to be blamed! For some reason, the US sits at the very top of such nations! Why do you have this crazy culture of incarcerating people for the most absurd and trivial things? Don't you think something is wrong with you as a culture?

This is how people are born:
Woman forced to give birth while handcuffed and shackled by police in New York, lawsuit claims

This is how they grow up and have their first encounters with police:
COPS GO BALLISTIC ON 'MISBEHAVING' PRESCHOOLER
4-year-old handcuffed, shackled, hauled off to sheriff's office


Go through adulthood:
Judge frees Pa. inmate who served record term for delinquent alimony account
14-year contempt sentence ends

An then die(and criminal cops get acquitted):
Cop acquitted in beanbag gun death of 95-year-old vet

NONE of the above should EVER happen in a country where freedom and human rights are given ANY consideration!
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:cuckoo:

And imagine, millions around the Globe are risking everything to come to where cops kill 95 year old vets with bean bags...…

But thanks for sharing your opinion.
 
ocean515 said:
And imagine, millions around the Globe are risking everything to come to where cops kill 95 year old vets with bean bags...…

But thanks for sharing your opinion.
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And some other millions are risking everything to go to Saudi Arabia... a well known US-ally and an oasis of "freedom" and "human rights" and so on... :lamo
 
Rogue Valley said:
As you ignore one of the greatest opening lines of any document....

"We the People....."
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We the people in Eisenhower/Kennedy era are not the we the people of today!

In the early 60’s America had reached it’s Zenith. I went to a top college as did some of my best friends but some of
my buddies were not as fortunate. However there was a huge Ford plant about 15 miles away in Mahwah NJ where
there were thousands of good jobs available where they were able to make good money & go to college close by
at night. That Ford plant was closed in the 1980’s. Kid’s nowadays rarely have that type job to enter.

For the most part life was getting better for every segment of society. College was affordle for almost everyone.
I went to college in Virginia and had to go to summer school one year for 6 credits, the dean of men who I
knew better than most students for both good & bad reasons allowed me to be considered an in-state student
and I payed $84 for 6 credits. Eight years ago my brothers kid payed $5000 for 3 credits at NYU in the city.

California was still the paradise over the mountains for those seeking the new opportunities there. Blacks
for the first time became dominant in sports & Music and were making inroads in TV & the movies.
There talented tenth were thriving & their families were still intact. For blacks youths jobs were a plenty
without competing with the waves of immigration which followed bringing the 300 or so now languages
spoken here today.

Always it's Sameness that dominates! People favor friendships with those of similar backgrounds, interests
& values. Despite minor exceptions the urge is almost universal, it's human nature!’ If anyone feels differently they
are swimming upstream, that's a backbreaker.
 
slick said:
We the people in Eisenhower/Kennedy era are not the we the people of today!
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You mean the Trump & Co are not the Constitution loving Americans of yesteryear.
 
Rogue Valley said:
You mean the Trump & Co are not the Constitution loving Americans of yesteryear.
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Very poor interpretation of the post you replied to! Trump is trying to bring back just a smidgeon of the America of Eisenhower,
so much is water over the dam that that is the best he can possibly do!
 
slick said:
Trump is trying to bring back just a smidgeon of the America of Eisenhower.
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Ike is no doubt turning over in his Kansas grave at the damages Trump has inflicted on this country.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Ike is no doubt turning over in his Kansas grave at the damages Trump has inflicted on this country.
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Trump remembers when America was on top, he's the first leader since Eisenhower who seems to want it to be that way again.
If he can't turn things around it won't be for lack of trying but the forces against him are strong, democrats, the MSM & the
democrats who reside in Republican garb are the immovable objects in his way.
 
Right on!

There are no "great" countries.

There are, however, some countries that are less bad.

With all of its faults, the United States is (currently, but not for much longer) one of the less bad countries, when compared with the countries in Latin America, Africa, and most of Asia.

As far as I am concerned, probably the least bad country is Japan -- for various reasons. And second might be Norway.
 
slick said:
Very poor interpretation of the post you replied to! Trump is trying to bring back just a smidgeon of the America of Eisenhower,
so much is water over the dam that that is the best he can possibly do!
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And that, in a nutshell, is conservatism. The best time to be alive was when our fathers were boys.
Unless you're black, or gay, or a woman. Or a Catholic, or hispanic. The Eisenhower era wasn't a time those people, 'way over half of the population, would want to bring back but for white males it was about as good as it could be. Life just couldn't be better.

Conservative- "I liked it the way it was before!"
Liberal- "We can make it better!"
 
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