• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Elderly Will Be Denied Intensive Care as Coronavirus Overwhelms Italy's National Health System, Expe

prometeus said:
Moronic statements like yours need not be rebutted. It is plain obvious to any one with a modicum of intellect and integrity.
Click to expand...

Ahhh... that’s a poor defense for not having a coherent rebuttal.

But I’ll accept your surrender.

Cheers.
zim
 
ludin said:
Actually it doesn't which is why we have other laws to enforce those rights in case someone violates it.
So it leads back that the foundations are true.

in which your opinion is not supported by anything.

however Italy has shown that healthcare is not a right. it is a privilege that the government deems you worthy to have.

to the point that they have canceled peoples surgeries. not my idea of a healthcare system i want.

this is the perfect example of why turning healthcare over to the government is a bad idea.
Click to expand...

We have laws for all sorts of things, whether they are rights or the requirement to register somewhere to be a hair dresser. Having a law about something means very little to this argument.

A right is what society calls a right: here is how it works and why natural rights philosophy is wrong.

THE PROBLEM:
Natural Right stems from the model of man in nature. This hypothetical man is allowed to do anything he wants in nature and anything he can imagine doing in nature is a right because he is dominant over nature. He interacts with another man, who is also dominant over nature, and has to make certain compromises that you would make when two dominant, but intelligent forces interact to find the way to get along. Thus, each man, being his own internal kingdom must engage in a form of diplomacy with another man being his own kingdom (or sovereign being) and find where the limits are between those two thing. I.E. your right to punch stops at my nose or I cannot claim your force or actions.

The problem is that this is not the natural state of man. The typical man was not the french trapper in the mid 1700s who was primarily alone in the woods. The typical man exists in a society and needs to. This is evidenced by the fact that most people can get quite depressed when isolated from human interaction or love. This MAJOR PROBLEM at the foundation of US Natural Rights (I label it that because Natural Rights to someone like Thomas Acquinas looks very different and natural rights is a term thrown around a lot in many philosophical circles and systems) means that we are not dealing with natural man, but an idealized form. This makes any argument stemming from it false. Man is a real thing and not an ideal thing, which also bring in David Hume's is/ought problem.

THE CORRECTION:
Man exists primarily in society. That society could be family, friends, or even bigger structures, but almost all people live around people and interact in a society. Because morality is an instinct (it is primate social behavior primarily intended help survival odds) and that morality presupposed societal interaction. This means that the morality that extends from an individual goes forth into society and both defines and is defined by society. In terms of rights, rights are basically whatever a person and their society both agree are rights and there is no hard and fast system, its just agreed on labels.


I don't want surgeries cancelled either, but the facts on the ground are the facts on the ground and right now we are in an emergency situation (at least in italy)
 
zimmer said:
Yada, yada, yada...

Proving that healthcare is not a right.

A right denies NOBODY.
Click to expand...

No one is being denied. Everyone is being treated. The question is, if there are limited respirators, who gets one first?
 
Irredentist said:
No one is being denied. Everyone is being treated. The question is, if there are limited respirators, who gets one first?
Click to expand...


Faced with tough choices, Italy is prioritizing young COVID-19 patients over the elderly.
Prioritizing COVID-19 patients based on age '''would not fly''' in US: ethicist - Business Insider

Caplan said hospitals, like NYU's Bellevue Hospital, have already begun discussing how to ration scarce resources if need be. While there hasn't yet been a hospital committee meeting that addressed which patients would get priority in treatment, he expects that to come up down the line.
Click to expand...
 
tacomancer said:
We have laws for all sorts of things, whether they are rights or the requirement to register somewhere to be a hair dresser. Having a law about something means very little to this argument.

A right is what society calls a right: here is how it works and why natural rights philosophy is wrong.

THE PROBLEM:
Natural Right stems from the model of man in nature. This hypothetical man is allowed to do anything he wants in nature and anything he can imagine doing in nature is a right because he is dominant over nature. He interacts with another man, who is also dominant over nature, and has to make certain compromises that you would make when two dominant, but intelligent forces interact to find the way to get along. Thus, each man, being his own internal kingdom must engage in a form of diplomacy with another man being his own kingdom (or sovereign being) and find where the limits are between those two thing. I.E. your right to punch stops at my nose or I cannot claim your force or actions.

The problem is that this is not the natural state of man. The typical man was not the french trapper in the mid 1700s who was primarily alone in the woods. The typical man exists in a society and needs to. This is evidenced by the fact that most people can get quite depressed when isolated from human interaction or love. This MAJOR PROBLEM at the foundation of US Natural Rights (I label it that because Natural Rights to someone like Thomas Acquinas looks very different and natural rights is a term thrown around a lot in many philosophical circles and systems) means that we are not dealing with natural man, but an idealized form. This makes any argument stemming from it false. Man is a real thing and not an ideal thing, which also bring in David Hume's is/ought problem.

THE CORRECTION:
Man exists primarily in society. That society could be family, friends, or even bigger structures, but almost all people live around people and interact in a society. Because morality is an instinct (it is primate social behavior primarily intended help survival odds) and that morality presupposed societal interaction. This means that the morality that extends from an individual goes forth into society and both defines and is defined by society. In terms of rights, rights are basically whatever a person and their society both agree are rights and there is no hard and fast system, its just agreed on labels.


I don't want surgeries cancelled either, but the facts on the ground are the facts on the ground and right now we are in an emergency situation (at least in italy)
Click to expand...

again sounds like your issue not mine.

There is no problem. The issue that you have with your whole scenario is that you make an assumption that man is not rational. I on the other hand believe that man is for the most part a rational person.
They can be prone to irrationality but only for a limited time.
 
Irredentist said:
No one is being denied. Everyone is being treated. The question is, if there are limited respirators, who gets one first?
Click to expand...

you didn't read the OP did you?
 
Kreton said:
This is just sad news. I don't know what alternative they have. It breaks my heart to think of the people being refused treatment during this crisis.
Click to expand...

It’s not good, but the reality.

The reality is... healthcare is not a Right, and the more government is involved in it, the worse it gets.

If we treated the cell phone and computer markets as we have with healthcare... we’d be using 1990 phones and computers... and a much higher cost for the devices and services.
 
ludin said:
again sounds like your issue not mine.

There is no problem. The issue that you have with your whole scenario is that you make an assumption that man is not rational. I on the other hand believe that man is for the most part a rational person.
They can be prone to irrationality but only for a limited time.
Click to expand...

So you can't argue the philosophy?

This goes back to my point that I am not sure you know why you believe what you do, its just something you absorbed from your environment.

You know what they say about an examined life ...
 
zimmer said:
Faced with tough choices, Italy is prioritizing young COVID-19 patients over the elderly.
Click to expand...

Oh, so you admit that these elderly people are indeed patients in the hospital, and are therefore receiving treatment, and have not been denied or refused? Thank you for admitting that. Prioritizing younger patients is not the same thing as denying care to the elderly.
 
zimmer said:
It’s not good, but the reality.

The reality is... healthcare is not a Right, and the more government is involved in it, the worse it gets.

If we treated the cell phone and computer markets as we have with healthcare... we’d be using 1990 phones and computers... and a much higher cost for the devices and services.
Click to expand...

If we start getting overwhelmed with coronavirus cases, the exact same decisions over treatment priority will have to be made here in America.
 
ludin said:
again sounds like your issue not mine.

There is no problem. The issue that you have with your whole scenario is that you make an assumption that man is not rational. I on the other hand believe that man is for the most part a rational person.
They can be prone to irrationality but only for a limited time.
Click to expand...

The irrationality ends when it hits the masses in the teeth.

Communism.

Supposed Oil shortage of the 70’s... and other price control idiocies.

And this related to healthcare... as three quick examples. People will learn the state is not there to protect them... even those who paid their entire lives into the system.

But... people are known to repeat their errors. It explains why the Left still exist; ignorance of history and the mentality that theft from others is OK.

Rationality explains the old adage that if you’re 17 and aren’t Leftist you have no heart, and if your 35 and still a Leftist... you have no brain.
 
Last edited:
zimmer said:
It’s not good, but the reality.

The reality is... healthcare is not a Right, and the more government is involved in it, the worse it gets.

If we treated the cell phone and computer markets as we have with healthcare... we’d be using 1990 phones and computers... and a much higher cost for the devices and services.
Click to expand...

87 million Americans with insufficient or no health insurance would disagree, but then your position is partisan extremism against humanitarianism.
 
ludin said:
you didn't read the OP did you?
Click to expand...

Please point out to me where it says that the elderly have been turned away from the hospital? Everyone is being given some level of care. No one is being denied. But with only limited doctors and equipment available, some people have to be given priority. That's just reality.
 
VanceMack said:
The irony of your comment and all the little people rushing to 'like' it when damn near every thread on this site is started by leftists trying to use the ongoing global pandemic as an election strategy...
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's they way your victim Trump eyes would see it.
 
tacomancer said:
So you can't argue the philosophy?

This goes back to my point that I am not sure you know why you believe what you do, its just something you absorbed from your environment.

You know what they say about an examined life ...
Click to expand...

I just did argue philosphy and pointed out a serious flaw in your opinion on it.
YOu made a claim that you simply can't support. That this natural man will just do whatever he wants when he wants irregardless of who is around.

That is your flaw that i pointed out.

Man is is rational person for the most part. he can be lead into irrational actions but does not stay there.
There is no rational reason for me to just meet someone and punch them in the face.

If i meet someone else rationality dictates that i attempt to work with this person as long as they are not attempting to harm me.
There is a mutual benefit to working together. this invalidates your argument.

Sure i have a choice in your scenario. i can run up to the person and beat them to death and take their stuff. outside of that though what do i gain?
what is for me? this is called irrational thinking.

this is why laws exist because at times people do become irrational.

laws protect the natural rights of others from the irrational thinking that people sometimes do.
 
Irredentist said:
If we start getting overwhelmed with coronavirus cases, the exact same decisions over treatment priority will have to be made here in America.
Click to expand...

Yep.

Which bring me back to my OP... healthcare is not a Right.

It would be wonderful if everyone could be cared for in the optimal manner, but this is not feasible... and the best way to ensure the optimal situation for providing care... is not through government but a vibrant, competitive free market system that encourages individuals to be healthcare providers. Costs would decrease, services would expand, and there would be far more choice.

Will that be the lesson that comes out of this pandemic? I have my doubts.

But here... at least a few people should now understand... despite their wishes of a Government Healthcare Utopia... Healthcare is not a Right... never has been... and never will be.
 
SCrider said:
Yeah, that's they way your victim Trump eyes would see it.
Click to expand...

Even the blind and mentally challenged see it clearly. You don’t?
 
ludin said:
I just did argue philosphy and pointed out a serious flaw in your opinion on it.
YOu made a claim that you simply can't support. That this natural man will just do whatever he wants when he wants irregardless of who is around.

That is your flaw that i pointed out.

Man is is rational person for the most part. he can be lead into irrational actions but does not stay there.
There is no rational reason for me to just meet someone and punch them in the face.

If i meet someone else rationality dictates that i attempt to work with this person as long as they are not attempting to harm me.
There is a mutual benefit to working together. this invalidates your argument.

Sure i have a choice in your scenario. i can run up to the person and beat them to death and take their stuff. outside of that though what do i gain?
what is for me? this is called irrational thinking.

this is why laws exist because at times people do become irrational.

laws protect the natural rights of others from the irrational thinking that people sometimes do.
Click to expand...

If I missed it, then my apologies,

three problems with your argument:

1. Rationality and irrationally affects outcomes and not rights. Rationality is about making choices not about what we can or cannot do in this or that environment. In other words, no more how pure my thoughts are in terms of logic. The real world is still the real world and only actions would change circumstances, not wishing. You are bringing up points that have nothing to do with rights. The choice of punching someone affects their nose, not their rights.

2. Mankind does irrational things all the time in practice. Try googling the term "Florida man" and you will see my point.

3. First you say man is rational then you say man is not rational and we need laws. You contradict yourself.

Given that rights and logic have nothing to do with each other, you did not prove your claim that my claim was false.
 
zimmer said:
Yep.

Which bring me back to my OP... healthcare is not a Right.

It would be wonderful if everyone could be cared for in the optimal manner, but this is not feasible... and the best way to ensure the optimal situation for providing care... is not through government but a vibrant, competitive free market system that encourages individuals to be healthcare providers. Costs would decrease, services would expand, and there would be far more choice.

Will that be the lesson that comes out of this pandemic? I have my doubts.

But here... at least a few people should now understand... despite their wishes of a Government Healthcare Utopia... Healthcare is not a Right... never has been... and never will be.
Click to expand...

Who gives a **** whether it's a right or not? I don't. It's semantics. As a nation, we should constantly be working to ensure that ALL of our citizens have health insurance coverage. And so far, the system in America does an absolutely terrible job of accomplishing that. Our "vibrant, free market system" hasn't reduced costs or expanded services. Not in the slightest.
 
HumblePi said:
So you don't, well alright then, that's clear. Let me explain how triage works in emergency situations. Two people arrive in the emergency room on a gurney. They were both in a car accident together. There's a male age 50 who was driving his 80 year old mother to her doctor appointment. The man arrives with broken ribs, bleeding from the head, has a concussion and two broken legs he's barely conscious but can answer questions about the accident. The old mother is bleeding profusely from her arm, her blood pressure is dangerously low, she's losing blood fast, she's unconscious and she starts convulsing. There's one doctor on duty, who does he treat first?
Click to expand...

Why is there only one doctor on duty in an emergency room?
That right there should demonstrate how NHS lacks.

Socialized medicine is bad for your health.
 
Irredentist said:
Please point out to me where it says that the elderly have been turned away from the hospital? Everyone is being given some level of care. No one is being denied. But with only limited doctors and equipment available, some people have to be given priority. That's just reality.
Click to expand...

Health officials in Italy have issued guidelines for rationing care as hospitals there struggle to keep up with the surge of patients infected with the coronavirus. Doctors are being told that they'll likely need to deny care to senior citizens and those with other health conditions as the virus explodes across the nation.

straight from the OP. also the fact that people are having the surgeries cancelled.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom