Trump Tied Ukraine Aid to Inquiries He Sought, Bolton Book Says

Fiddytree said:

Dianna, please. These are Trump voters. Such things are beyond them and it's impolite to remind them of that.

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:3oops: My bad. I forgot how easy it is to hurt their little feelings.

cpwill said:

2. Yes. Between Bolton, who has decades of being a straight shooter and a conservative stalwart, whose testimony lines up with that of others, and Trump, who is a constant and inveterate liar, who continually yanks the carpet out from under his "allies" by changing his story, I absolutely believe Bolton.

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But Lou Dobbs tells me tonight Bolton is "a tool of the lefties." How can you combat that, CP!?

Now let’s look at some other policy areas!

Conservative said:

your change in attitude

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Hey! Remember way, way, way, back in the Obama Administration, when conservatives were aghast that Obama would be so incredibly naïve as to say that he would meet with the leaders of brutal dictatorships, giving them a world stage and a propaganda coup? Oh, how conservatives fumed at how easy Obama let off the dictators of the world….



Trump says he’s willing to meet with Rouhani without preconditions.


But sure. cpwill is the one who changed.

Conservative said:

your change in attitude

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Hey! Remember way, way, way, back in the Obama Administration, when conservatives thought that Obama had been a total naif and a fool to:


Trump Withdrawal from Syria threatens chaos

Trump invites Taliban to Camp David. Oh, and we are going to give the Taliban their key demand by cutting our effort off at the knees and reducing troops in Afghanistan, even if they don’t agree to anything at all. Pretty smooth negotiating strategy there: Either Give Me What I Want, Or I’ll Give You What You Want, So Take That.

And lest we forget: Trump exchanges Haqqani leaders for a U.S. hostage.

But sure. cpwill is the one who changed.

Conservative said:

your change in attitude

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Hey! Remember way, way, way, back in the Obama Administration, when conservatives thought it was really bad that he was alienating our allies while playing kissy face with dictators and thugs?

Yeah.

But sure. cpwill is the one who changed.


We can do this all night long, if you want. From being weak in foreign policy, to being a big-government statist in domestic policy, to his long-standing sexual-libertine approach to social questions…. cpwill hasn’t changed. Republicans, and especially Republicans who claimed to be “Conservatives” have.

Fiddytree said:

But Lou Dobbs tells me tonight Bolton is "a tool of the lefties." How can you combat that, CP!?

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Mostly with laughter. I'm torn between wondering if Dobbs has really gone that senile and stupid, or if he just thinks his audience has.

cpwill said:

:lol: Trump has no principles, and, certainly he shares no particular principles with the Founders.



:snort: Trump has refused to take personal responsibility for any of the plague of problems in his administrations, instead constantly blaming others OFTEN IN ALL CAPS such as Secretary Mattis.

Cmon, man, personal responsibility? The guy who could have saved himself endless trouble and possibly even an impeachment by just saying "My Bad" on the Ukraine thing and taking a Congressional censure, but couldn't accept personal responsibility for any of his actions, instead insisting they were "perfect"? Sorry, no.





Now… PRIOR to the Trump Administration, conservatives were pretty much uniformly opposed to all those things, cpwill among them. But now because Trump…. sure, yeah, cpwill is the one who changed. Okedoke.




Excellent point. Trump would never expand the federal government, try to pick winners and losers, and increase federal expenditures that create dependence.

OH WAIT.

Fun Fact: Trump’s Bailouts for the Trade War he started are already DOUBLE the size of Obama’s bailout of the Auto Industry

Now, I’m so old, I can remember way, way, way back into the Obama administration, when CONSERVATIVES were pretty much uniformly against massive expansions of government expenditures, especially in service of bailouts that left the recipient dependent on continued government funds. Heck – back then conservatives even opposed Obama’s tariffs as a destructive and anti-free-trade means of trying to pick winners and losers.

Trump tries to pick winners and losers in the economy, and what have Republicans done? They abandoned those principles to serve Trump.

Trump gives us trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. Once upon a time, Republicans claimed to care about that sort of thing, and “Conservatives” certainly did.

Sure, yeah, cpwill is the one who changed.

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This really is a waste of time with you as you are incapable of thinking beyond your own biases and opinions formed based upon incomplete data. I am not going to waste any more time with you on this issue as you really are too biased to even try to get the facts about Trump. Suggest you read The United States of Trump and get back to me afterwards. Explains a lot about a very complicated man but still a very patriotic and successful man as the current results show.

Do you have an alternative? You think the radical left is as principled as you? Do you really want to see one of those clowns running on the Democratic ticket to take the oval office?? I feel sorry for people like you so principled and yet so naïve, gullible and poorly informed

cpwill said:

Mostly with laughter. I'm torn between wondering if Dobbs has really gone that senile and stupid, or if he just thinks his audience has.

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More like after a decade and a half crying about brown people giving competition to self-entitled white blue collar workers, Lou finally found an audience for grumpy white populists and started to sing:

DiAnna said:

Because Trump got caught, and congress convened an investigation the day before Trump released the damned aid. You're really not paying much attention to the details of this case, are you?

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Sure, believe whatever you want. :lamo

Conservative said:

incomplete data.

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Conservative said:

This really is a waste of time with you as you are incapable of thinking beyond your own biases and opinions formed based upon incomplete data. I am not going to waste any more time with you on this issue as you really are too biased to even try to get the facts about Trump. Suggest you read The United States of Trump and get back to me afterwards. Explains a lot about a very complicated man but still a very patriotic and successful man as the current results show.

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I like how you claim that I've changed, and claim you respect me, so I go to the trouble of listing out and linking all the positions where I haven't changed, but the GOP has, and your response is....

to accuse me of bias and claim that you aren't going to waste any more time on it because Gosh I'm Just So Biased as to be able to identify fault with my own tribe by sticking to an independent measure of truth. :roll:


And, the sweet, sweet irony that you finish up with:

Do you have an alternative? You think the radical left is as principled as you? Do you really want to see one of those clowns running on the Democratic ticket to take the oval office?? I feel sorry for people like you so principled and yet so naïve,

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False Dilemma Logical Fallacy.


But, please. Please keep being upset with me for actually having and sticking to principles. Of all the critiques I can muster, that is probably far and away the best.

gullible and poorly informed

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Sure. I'm the one who's lived half these stories and is able to cite you chapter and verse for issue after issue, while all you can respond with is But Bill O'Reilly Says... and, I'm the one who's gullible and poorly informed. Okedoke. :thumbs:

maxparrish said:

Thank you for the non-response to my request. Until such time as you can provide the lawyer quote that does not exist I won't bother your self-amused ranting.

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Are you so much in denial that you are denying that everything is going to come out too? Parnas proved that Trump is not invincible at shutting up his employees. Bolton is far smarter than Parnas. The funny thing is that the stuff about Trump and Ukraine is not going to be the worst of what Bolton tells us. At least that F'n Neocon is still a patriot and I am very interested in what he says about Erdogon, Putin and Kim..:lol:

cpwill said:

I like how you claim that I've changed, and claim you respect me, so I go to the trouble of listing out and linking all the positions where I haven't changed, but the GOP has, and your response is....

to accuse me of bias and claim that you aren't going to waste any more time on it because gosh I'm Just So Biased. :roll:


But, the sweet, sweet irony that you finish up with:



False Dilemma Logical Fallacy.


But, please. Please keep being upset with me for actually having and sticking to principles. Of all the critiques I can muster, that is probably far and away the best.




Sure. I'm the one who's lived half these stories and is able to cite you chapter and verse for issue after issue, while all you can respond with is But Bill O'Reilly Says... and, I'm the one who's gullible and poorly informed. Okedoke. :thumbs:

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I asked you a question and you ignored it, who is the alternative to Trump? Why is it you don't think that the alternative is a Democratic socialist candidate then what, more whining and complaining? Don't give a **** what you think of O'Reilly and how partisan you think he is, read the damn book and then tell me he is biased and partisan giving Trump a break. I have a completely different opinion now of Trump after reading half of the book. You really have no idea what you are talking about

Your so called principles are going to give us a Democrat in the WH, if that is what you want then change your lean. There is no logic and common sense in your principles.

iguanaman said:

Are you so much in denial that you are denying that everything is going to come out too? Parnas proved that Trump is not invinctible at shutting up his employees. Bolton is far smarter than Parnas. The funny thing is that the stuff about Trump and Ukraine is not going to be the worst of what Bolton tells us. At least that F'n Neocon is still a patriot and I am very interested in what he says about Erdogon, Putin and Kim..:lol:

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You continue with your vendetta against Trump, why?? It isn't about Ukraine, it is about pure hatred over your perception of Trump and apparently are willing to take the risk on reversing the strong economic growth, job creation we are experiencing all because of your desire for more social engineering and central gov't growth. I feel so sorry for people like you

Bullseye said:

Sure, believe whatever you want. :lamo

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That's what happened, and there are reams of evidence to prove it.

Conservative said:

I asked you a question and you ignored it

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Because it has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the GOP has changed their positions in the time of Trump, or cpwill has, which was your charge

Red Herring Fallacy



But sure. I'm the one who's biased and logically untrustworthy.

And no, if all you have is "But Bill O'Reilly Says He's A Great Guy", then no, I don't GAF what the now-disgraced author of Killing Patton says about Trump as he tries to sell books to Trump's fan base and make himself relevant again.

Feel free to post or link his arguments here and make them stick yourself, and let me know if any of his arguments provide compelling evidence or reason supporting your claim that cpwill is the one who changed his positions rather than the GOP and many of those who claimed to be conservatives, since that, after all, was your charge.

cpwill said:

Because it has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the GOP has changed their positions in the time of Trump, or cpwill has, which was your charge

Red Herring Fallacy

Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.​

But sure. I'm the one who's biased and logically untrustworthy.

And no, if all you have is "But Bill O'Reilly Says He's A Great Guy", then no, I don't GAF what the now-disgraced author of Killing Patton says about Trump as he tries to sell books to Trump's fan base and make himself relevant again.

Feel free to post or link his arguments here and make them stick yourself, and let me know if any of his arguments provide compelling evidence or reason supporting your claim that cpwill is the one who changed his positions rather than the GOP and many of those who claimed to be conservatives, since that, after all, was your charge.

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This thread is about Trump's Impeachment issues but you seem to want to make this an indictment of Trump's record and personality. That is nothing but a biased, partisan point of view that has nothing to do with the thread topic. I have no reason to post links to items in the book I am reading as that has nothing to do with the thread topic.

You obviously have your mind made up about Trump but refuse to acknowledge consequences of removing him from office as your principles trump what is in the best interest of the country which I assure you isn't one of the Democrats

Conservative said:

This thread is about Trump's Impeachment issues but you seem to want to make this an indictment of Trump's record and personality.

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YOU are the one who claimed that I had changed in order to oppose Trump. I listed off policy after policy, item after item, where I hadn't changed, the GOP did, in order to follow Trump.


YOU are the one who chose that sub-topic. YOU are the one who brought that up. YOU are the one who made the accusation. I gave you a chance to reconsider before I responded by pointing out precisely what I then proceeded (hours later) to point out, and YOU instead chose to double-down.


So, for you to come up complaining now that this became a topic within this thread is laughable. Almost as laughable as you complaining about sticking to topic in the exact same post wherein you then try to shift topics to the Democrats.

DiAnna said:

That's what happened, and there are reams of evidence to prove it.

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Yeah, I've heard that "reams of evidence" trope before.

humbolt said:

The bolded above is simply Schiff attempting to circumvent the courts again, and one SC Justice doesn't reflect the view of the entire court. It's a rotten idea, but as such certainly worthy of Schiff.

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Where in the Constitution does it say the SC decides what is and isn't legal in an impeachment? The Senate has sole power of im0eacment trials, not the SC

Conservative said:

You continue with your vendetta against Trump, why?? It isn't about Ukraine, it is about pure hatred over your perception of Trump and apparently are willing to take the risk on reversing the strong economic growth, job creation we are experiencing all because of your desire for more social engineering and central gov't growth. I feel so sorry for people like you

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It is about Ukraine and Trumps continued assault on our free elections. Plus the fact that we cannot let a corrupt President or any President ignore the equality of the the 3 branches and declare himself King. The fact that you don't even understand why that is shows how far you are from being an American. I'm sorry to inform you but you are now a man without a country. Except for massive deficit spending and tax cuts, a President has little control over the economy. any President who wanted to run trilion $ deficits in a supposedly booming economy can get under 2.3% growth. You do know that is the CBO estimate for GDP growth in 2020 is UNDER 2.3%. This is the booming economy that Trump is running on?

In CBO’s projections, federal budget deficits remain large by historical standards, and federal debt grows to equal 95 percent of GDP by 2029. Economic growth is expected to slow from 2.3 percent in 2019 to a rate that is below its long-run historical average.

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An Update to the Budget and Economic Outlook: 2019 to 2029 | Congressional Budget Office

Conservative said:

You continue with your vendetta against Trump, why?? It isn't about Ukraine, it is about pure hatred over your perception of Trump and apparently are willing to take the risk on reversing the strong economic growth, job creation we are experiencing all because of your desire for more social engineering and central gov't growth. I feel so sorry for people like you

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What a pile of horse manure. I don't know about you, but I can walk and chew gum at the sane t8me. Moreover, there's no dichotomy here. I can hate Trump and still see wrongdoing with regard to Ukraine. Or, I can hate Trump because of Ukraine.

The question is why do you adore such a corrupt buffoon.

cpwill said:

YOU are the one who claimed that I had changed in order to oppose Trump. I listed off policy after policy, item after item, where I hadn't changed, the GOP did, in order to follow Trump.


YOU are the one who chose that sub-topic. YOU are the one who brought that up. YOU are the one who made the accusation. I gave you a chance to reconsider before I responded by pointing out precisely what I then proceeded (hours later) to point out, and YOU instead chose to double-down.


So, for you to come up complaining now that this became a topic within this thread is laughable. Almost as laughable as you complaining about sticking to topic in the exact same post wherein you then try to shift topics to the Democrats.

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Then I have you confused with another poster because all I see from you are biased comments that don't tell the real story of Donald Trump, the actual results do and it is actual results not your perception or principles that matter. There is absolutely no justification for Trump being removed from office, you know it, I know it, and the general public knows it.

Since day one that Trump took office, Democrats have been trying to overturn the election results and have set a dangerous precedence for future Presidents. The Articles of Impeachment are a joke.

Now you can stick to your principles but in November we will have a choice, Trump or one of the Democratic Candidates. As I did in 2016 I will make the right choice for me, my family, and the country, TRUMP!!

The rest of your post is nothing more than you pontificating but as for my shifting the topic, there are more people on this thread than just you thus my responses were accordingly.

iguanaman said:

It is about Ukraine and Trumps continued assault on our free elections. Plus the fact that we cannot let a corrupt President or any President ignore the equality of the the 3 branches and declare himself King. The fact that you don't even understand why that is shows how far you are from being an American. I'm sorry to inform you but you are now a man without a country. Except for massive deficit spending and tax cuts, a President has little control over the economy. any President who wanted to run trilion $ deficits in a supposedly booming economy can get under 2.3% growth. You do know that is the CBO estimate for GDP growth in 2020 is UNDER 2.3%. This is the booming economy that Trump is running on?


An Update to the Budget and Economic Outlook: 2019 to 2029 | Congressional Budget Office

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You keep talking about free elections and keep brining up Trump's assault but the reality is neither Russia or Ukraine changed my vote or yours so all I see here is someone who has so little faith in the American people and wants a country run like the state of California which is a fiscal and social disaster.

You keep focusing on achieving that liberal utopia which is the major cause of the debt but you have been indoctrinated well by the left who loves people like you trying to sell us liberal bs. You continue to focus on percentage change and I will continue to focus on dollars, over a trillion dollar GDP Growth per year is incredible growth and that is what Trump is doing. The Trump results blow Obama and your ideology away. If you want what you are seeking I hear Venezuela is the place for you but quite frankly I don't want a return to the Obama style economic model of creating dependency, the politics of personal destruction, and massive social engineering by the federal bureaucrats

DP and Dollar change
2013 16974.9
2014 17527.7 552,8
2015 18224.8 697.1
2016 18715.0 490.2
2017 19519.4 804.4
2018 20580.2 1006.1 Notice the drop from 697 billion growth to 490 billion growth then the surge. Trump inherited the 18.7 economy that is now approaching 22 trillion

Ukraine wouldn't be an issue today were it not for Trump and your desire to remove him from office because you have lost the issues debate. The chaos that would be created I am sure will make you and Russia happy. when was the last time you believed a word Bolton spoke?

Michael Cole said:

What a pile of horse manure. I don't know about you, but I can walk and chew gum at the sane t8me. Moreover, there's no dichotomy here. I can hate Trump and still see wrongdoing with regard to Ukraine. Or, I can hate Trump because of Ukraine.

The question is why do you adore such a corrupt buffoon.

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Why? Because the alternative is much worse!!! I chose wisely in 2016 and am getting the results I voted for. I will do the same in 2020. There is no valid reason to remove Trump and elect a Democrat

Conservative said:

Then I have you confused with another poster because all I see from you are biased comments that don't tell the real story of Donald Trump, the actual results do and it is actual results not your perception or principles that matter. There is absolutely no justification for Trump being removed from office, you know it, I know it, and the general public knows it.

Since day one that Trump took office, Democrats have been trying to overturn the election results and have set a dangerous precedence for future Presidents. The Articles of Impeachment are a joke.

Now you can stick to your principles but in November we will have a choice, Trump or one of the Democratic Candidates. As I did in 2016 I will make the right choice for me, my family, and the country, TRUMP!!

The rest of your post is nothing more than you pontificating but as for my shifting the topic, there are more people on this thread than just you thus my responses were accordingly.

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I know your standard talking point: since day one that Trump took office, Democrats have been trying to overturn the 2916 election. It isn't true. Democrats first tried to work with him but he was only interested in bulldozing over them. Then, voters outraged at his healthcare plan that would have taken away all kinds of coverages and be unaffordable, gave the House in 2018 to the Democrats in a landslide. It wasn't until Trump committed impeachable offenses that impeachment, which was resisted by Pelosi, was finally issued.

But even if Democrats wanted to get rid of Trump from the beginning, that doesn't mean he didn't deserve impeachment for what he later did. The general public has a pretty clear understanding that Trump did what he is accused of doing. Nobody is running to his defense saying, 'Trump would never try to use undo influence to get a personal advantage. That's not the type of man he is.' Most are admitted, that's exactly the man he is.

Conservative said:

Why? Because the alternative is much worse!!! I chose wisely in 2016 and am getting the results I voted for. I will do the same in 2020. There is no valid reason to remove Trump and elect a Democrat

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Why? Because I love America. Why do you hate America?