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[W:914,1223] Robert Mueller's report is out

Absolutely agreed.

I said that same thing earlier in the thread.

No matter what the outcome of the FBI investigation into Clinton, she was absolutely guilty to many Independents, or at the very least, they had reservations about her. And that was absolutely fair under the circumstances. Trump Fan Nation seems to not be astute enough to recognize that, or don't remember it. I've been reading this report (and unlike Barr, I won't pretend I can read it, digest it, analyze it, and make sense of it in a few hours. What I see so far is actually quite damning. Like Hillary, he wasn't charged with any crime. Like Hillary, he will distress the Independents. This is actually not a good day at all for Trump. Not getting indicted by Mueller at this point is the least of his worries. Impeachment and possible criminal investigations by other law enforcement, coupled with the bad image this report is conveying, isn't going to go well for him.
 
From John Marshall:

Seems worth noting. Red underline is part Barr quoted, blue underline the part he omitted.

D4cxy1XXsAE0nz_.jpg

So Russia interfered with the election to promote Trump's bid, but the investigation couldn't state that the Trump Campaign itself conspired in that interference.

It's clear Barr took things out of context to shine the best light he could on Trump, I don't think anyone was surprised by that. And of course the Trumpeteers will spin that same narrative. Why understand the whole truth, when only part of the truth is what you need?
 
Never Trumper, Chris Wallace, said Trump is off the hook legally, and will never be impeached... but I think the Trump resisters should keep on with their nonsense. It all but guarantees no one can beat him 2020
IF they were smart, (and they're not), they would drop this hot potato, support this president, be happy for our country that the Mueller report findings and conclusions as giving by the DofJ were positive, and get onto doing what the people elected them to do; legislate.
This is exactly what Wallace said:

Here's the video of Chris Wallace on Fox: "The Attorney General seemed almost to be acting as the counselor for the defense, for the counselor for the president, rather than the Attorney General ... I suspect that Democrats' heads on Capitol Hill were exploding."
 
Wow. Let's play another round of "Glue a bunch of meaningless facts together"

If someone says the cost of the Mueller investigation would pay for a wall to the moon and back, why not call that bull**** out?

I mean, I know you don't have anything of substance to remark about the actual content of the report, so why don't you go get someone else's words and pictures to do it for you and come back and make a couple posts about what other people have to say?
 
Honestly, I don't care about arguing minutia or keeping this alive.

It's a done deal. Trump is off the hook. Time for some to learn to live with life on life's terms.

I don't think he's off the hook at all.

You may see it as minutia. It isn't. I know you want to bury it, but you can't. This report is actually pretty damning to Trump and shows some serious corruption. The court of public opinion is the judge on polling day. Hillary Clinton can tell you that too.
 
This is exactly what Wallace said:

Here's the video of Chris Wallace on Fox: "The Attorney General seemed almost to be acting as the counselor for the defense, for the counselor for the president, rather than the Attorney General ... I suspect that Democrats' heads on Capitol Hill were exploding."


Wow, it looks like he was pulling an Eric Holder.
 
I think Trump was referring not to Obama himself, but to the Obama administration.
And yes, they did wire members of his campaign. It's my hopes that we will learn much more about this when the IG report is released.

Obama White House Wiretapped Trump, Then Lied About It: CNN | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD
..
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!

157K
7:02 AM - Mar 4, 2017

Trump, Offering No Evidence, Says Obama Tapped His Phones - The New York Times
...
 
From the bits & pieces I'm catching, I'm getting kinda' blown away that Trump managed to skip-out on all this.

I am about 2/3rd of the way though this now as a few things are becoming clear.

Mueller was very careful on dealing with the account of Collusion and Conspiracy. He did go so far as to say that "(they) did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired" with Russia to influence the outcome of the 2016 Campaign, it left open a lack of conclusion on the idea of collusion in terms of trying to cover up other crimes. The one thing that Trump lawyers did well was keep him away from Mueller in a direct interview, that the written answers were "inadequate."

At the same time the report does nullify something Trump supporters have been adamant about for years, Russia actively tried to influence the 2016 campaign with false narrative social media campaigns even if they were not successful in actually changing a vote via hacking.

Worse it confirms Trump expected to benefit from the information received, and Russia expected to be better off with Trump in office over Hillary (business dealings included.)

What is damning is Trump expected his efforts to obtain information on Hillary during 2016 as meaningful to his efforts, and the report definitely suggests Trump Jr. is a moron. "Willfully violated the law" regarding Trump Jr, meaning aligned with previous Attorney General dealings with intention and expectation (think Hillary and the email server fiasco.) The report suggests Trump Jr. might not have realized what he was doing or intended to do (ref to emails and texts gathered.)

Collusion then was left up to that nebulous explanation that suggests not enough intent but not a total lack of either.

"Unable to conclude no criminal conduct occurred" in terms of Obstruction of Justice was also the bit about "while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." This is more entertaining, Mueller concluded that because members of Trump's Administration did not do what he wanted he was not quite guilty of that crime. Basically that Trump tried to get them to go along with not participating thus intent was there. But Trump was not so successful, those around him "refused" his instructions. So Mueller left open a qualifier about Congress, in that the House "has the ability" (legal means) to find that the President did obstruct justice (meaning start impeachment in the House and let it play out in the Senate.)

A significant explanation in the report suggested that Mueller and team spent a reasonable time considering what they call the "obstructive act" standard. The report does say that Trump "repeatedly" and "intentionally" reached out the Intelligence Agencies looking for anything about the Investigation, and further repeatedly asked to have the "investigation stopped" (presumably on his authority alone directing either Coats or Comey do make it happen.) The report also shows, rather conclusively, that Trump thought the Investigation would "damage him personally" and make worse the question of the "legitimacy" of his Presidency. It even goes so far as to illustrate that Trump was concerned about Obstruction of Justice all along. And his calls to McGhan were very ill advised.

The point being "intent" was found far more than not when it came to what Trump was trying to do about this investigation.

There really was a spider web of questionable activity and shady dealings throughout the campaign season, well into Trump's Presidency, into late 2017. It does conclude that Trump could be found of doing just enough to have articles of Impeachment drawn up in the House on the point of Obstruction of Justice.

The report tells me the question of legality and next steps is on Congress, it was never on Mueller to definitively say prosecute or not. But regardless of the outcome in Congress, "total exoneration" is epic garbage and Trump really is the piece of **** we assumed him to be.

The report itself is far more than the "nothing burger" the right is pimping.

*BUT,* there is another huge problem. By these standards and applicability of the very laws referenced, Hillary should be facing some other legal outcome herself for the nonsense she pulled.
 
Wow, it looks like he was pulling an Eric Holder.

For the amount of time y'all spent bitching about how bad Clinton and Obama where, y'all sure like to compare Trump and his Administration to them.


Guess the Swamp won.
 
One more time. waiting for an honest answer.

So they had links, had multiple talks, had offers of assistance, trump people went after the russians to get information, many meetings happened, but no indictment.

Conclusion : no collusion. What?
 
For the amount of time y'all spent bitching about how bad Clinton and Obama where, y'all sure like to compare Trump and his Administration to them.


Guess the Swamp won.



Eh, can't argue with that.
 
How can anyone read this and say he's clean? So basically the POTUS tried to obstruct justice multiple times and just because someone stopped him impeachment is out of the question? what happened to criminal intent?

Actually, much of that affirms intent and would be strong evidence of mindset should they ever impeach.

My guess is that start an impeachment investigation (Resolution to authorize an investigation regarding impeachable conduct) to explore other the avenues of this, including broadening the view of Trump as compromised by / influenced by or manipulated by the Russians. The impeachment investigations would allow the Democrats to fundamentally surf on the waves of Trump rampant corruption right up until the next election without actually having to debate or vote on Articles of Impeachment.

How far the House goes with this is entirely dependent upon the reaction of the political middle... that 10% of the population that may have voted for Trump in the past, but might be regretting that decision.
 
OMG ... if the left doesn't stop coming across as desperate as this, we are going to end up with 4 more years. This is just too painful to watch.

And if we do end up with four more years of Trump, they'll be right there to lather, rinse and repeat. :roll:

TBH though, Bernie or Biden was never going to beat him anyway, especially after the report clears the president.

IMO, the only way the Dems. might win and beat him in 2020, is to get honest, admit they were wrong about Trump, his family members, his campaign members or any other American and conclude by saying, today is a great day for our country. They need to argue issues, and stop with their resisting the POTUS. I actually don't mind, because nobody the left is running, IMO, offers more than what Trump has done for our country economically. And with me, it's about a strong economy and keeping people employed. The latter won't happen if the left takes power... The first thing they will do is burden business by upping their taxes and burdening them with over-regulation. jmho
 
For the last two years we, supporters of the president, waited patiently for the Mueller investigation to be over. Today, we have the truth.
The truth, we all, as Americans should be celebrating; NO AMERICAN GUILTY OF A CRIME.
Instead, those who preached to us how necessary it was to have total faith in Mueller have turned it around purposely to make it look like Barr is colluding with Trump.

Give me a ****ing break.... shame on these thin skinned anti-American bastards, some pretending to be real journalists from the MSM, and the likes of these partisan hacks like Jerry Nadler, Schiff, and Swalwell. Oh, I almost thought to mention their brainless bootlickers, water carriers...

As you said, the DP Trump haters and Mueller report deniers would be better off ranting to the mirror!

There are some unflattering things about the president that he could have invoked presidential privilege and have them redacted from the report but he chose not to. Mueller was not hindered in completing his investigation. The WH provided all documents requested and all persons were made available for questioning.

For over two friggin years the drums have beaten that this president was treasonous, colluding with Russia from the Democrats and their friends in the media. And just days before his inauguration these bastards in the media published that piece of **** known as the Dossier paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC that had not been verified and was done just to embarrass him and make him look illegitimate . I heard it described today what Trump has gone through compared to a 2 yr proctology exam.

Just yesterday there were Democrats like Shifty Schiff out there still claiming there was collusion and it will come out. Well that arse needs to put up or shut the heck up because Mueller with all his tools at his fingertips and an army of investigators didn't find any. If these yahoos want to start impeachment hearings have at it. In the meantime, Horowitz is finishing up his report of wrongdoing by the Obama DOJ and FBI and Barr has started his investigation on the spying of Trump's campaign that turned into the collusion narrative. There was wrongdoing and people will be indicted and some already have but the indictments are sealed. Now that the Mueller report has been released, I look to see those indictments become unsealed in the coming weeks as it is being reported that Horowitz will have more recommendations of referral of prosecution of others.
 
Page 220 - Mueller explicitly states that it is not up to him to decide on obstruction of justice, but it is up to Congress. Also, the report shows Trump retweeting social media propaganda created by the Russian GRU. This was not intentional, but does show that Trump was definitely what Russian intelligence agencies describe as a useful idiot.
 
Are you saying that Barr changed Muller's conclusions? Or just pouting that you didn't get shorty?

Sent from my SM-T587P using Tapatalk

The odds on the Russians actually colluding/conspiring with either Mr. Trump or "Team Trump" increase the closer that the average IQ of the people running the Russian government approaches 50 and decreases the closer it approaches 75 (at which point it vanishes entirely).

Draw your own conclusions on "collusion/conspiracy".

If Mr. Barr's summary had INCORRECTLY stated that Mr. Mueller's investigation had "not found sufficient evidence to establish a case that had a reasonable prospect of success with respect to 'obstruction of justice'" then I suspect that Mr. Mueller would have spoken out.

Not yet having read the report, I'll leave it at that and NOT speculate on what, if any, evidence that indicated a potential "obstruction of justice" Mr. Mueller's report did reveal.
 
One more time. waiting for an honest answer.

So they had links, had multiple talks, had offers of assistance, trump people went after the russians to get information, many meetings happened, but no indictment.

Conclusion : no collusion. What?


Take it up with Mueller.


You know, they guy your side hailed as a hero when appointed to head the investigation.
 
No need to fret. We'll have a weenie liberal in office sooner or later to get us back on tract of pandering to illegals and letting hairy 40 year old men into the women's bathroom.

Transgender men aren't hairy and they can be of any age. Best you stick to something you have an understanding of, which apparently is nothing.
 
Should be a breezy read. Now to learn why Barr felt like he needed to put his own spin on it.

And by the way, this is Barr’s redacted version of the report.

As the Scholarly Ken Starr said earlier in the week it is the " Wise and prudent thing to do by
explaining the Mueller Report as it comes out ". Because there are 4 divisions { color coded } by
degree of redaction }. In other words it is The Grown-up thing to do.
We had 2 years of basically Juvenile Reporting about what is now a HOAX.
Both the Washington Post and New York Times shared a Pultizer for Not reporting
but commenting on a HOAX.Articles featuring many Anonymous sources.Some leaked on
purpose in order to develop steam.
 
Reading it, digesting it, etc is a very good thing. Analyzing it is a very good thing. Using it WELL is a great thing.

That's not really what's being done by most posting here and OP ED pieces and such so far. Most are looking for tidbits to quote and trying to retry it or scream impeachment. So far, about 90% of what has actually been quoted does nothing to credibly dispute the summary of findings.

It's very important how this is played. It could be turned into a win done right or it can stink of desperation. It's barely been released and the latter is already starting to mount up.


Looking through this thread I see a whole lot of people quoting big sections of various pages - bear in mind "Fair Use" limits what can be posted - and describing the various bits of corrupt behavior they describe.

But then I see a whole lot of other people running dishonest victory laps, making sure to avoid the quoted sections at all cost, generally just trolling anyone who is trying to discuss it, and if they do a little of that it's to proclaim Trump's complete innocence on all fronts (not the report says or supports). I don't think those are the kind of people worth worrying about. The only way one could reach the desperation conclusion is if one is starting from the position that Trump is completely innocent and therefore there is nothing in the report to discuss, full stop. So, I suspect someone who the Dems need in 2020 and whose support is worth aiming for is not going to look at this ****storm and conclude the people who discussed the report are being desperate. Those that do are almost certainly in the second category.

As for impeachment, I think you'll find most people are nothing that Trump was never going to be convicted on articles of impeachment, but if this was the 90s he would at least have to answer such charges. Thus far, it sounds like Trump did a whole lot more than Clinton did to cover up the BJ and interfere in the civil suits. There were a few here insisting on impeachment even before the report. I recall one person announcing that Mueller was a "traitor". But those are a small minority.




Bear in mind, each candidate in the main 2020 election was the most unfavored of their party for several decades before, and even then Hillary got the popular vote. Her loss was ultimately down mainly to strategic incompetence (failure to campaign in a few key states or even coordinate with a ground operation), despite the huge contribution of her unlikability. They do have to play their cards right. But.....but not in minimizing the report.
 
*BUT,* there is another huge problem. By these standards and applicability of the very laws referenced, Hillary should be facing some other legal outcome herself for the nonsense she pulled.
I followed all of your previous post, but this sentence doesn't make sense to me.

I don't want to go off topic, though, so I'll leave it be.
 
Take it up with Mueller.


You know, they guy your side hailed as a hero when appointed to head the investigation.

No indictment is fine. That's not the point. Collusion is not the name of a crime, you know that right? The actual crime would be conspiracy to commit treason against the US.
Collusion - secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others

There WAS secret cooperation, as Mueller said. Links, meetings, offers. Not enough evidence to convict, but it exists. We all accept that there were no indictments. I find it funny that republicans don't care for the reason WHY, but fine. it's a fact.
 
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