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POLL: Majority of Trump voters would support him even if he colluded with Russia

Conservative said:
You see here is the problem, the Census bureau posts data that you disagree with or ignore thus obviously you are more informed than they are. Suggest you call and let them know that your opinions trump their data
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I don't think I've disagreed with any of the Census Bureau's data. What, exactly do you mean?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Three observations:

1 I wonder why growers around here don't use this system? Seems like it would work.
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It does work. The growers who intentionally hire illegal workers are just looking for cheap labor. The ones who go the legal way pay a decent wage.


2 There seems to be nothing to keep the workers from disappearing into the general population and staying in the USA.
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It's a difference in motivations. The workers in these programs do not necessarily want to move to the USA. They simply want to take advantage of decent wages during seasonal needs for the growers. the ones that sneak over the border are not just out for work, they want to take advantage of the USA's entitlement system.

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obama-pushes-food-stamps-in-mexico/


3 Why do you have to be so damn snarky?
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Because my patience was wearing thin. I was getting the impression that you still doubted that such migrant worker programs actually existed. I have known that they existed in my area for years.
 
ObamacareFail said:
It does work. The growers who intentionally hire illegal workers are just looking for cheap labor. The ones who go the legal way pay a decent wage.




It's a difference in motivations. The workers in these programs do not necessarily want to move to the USA. They simply want to take advantage of decent wages during seasonal needs for the growers. the ones that sneak over the border are not just out for work, they want to take advantage of the USA's entitlement system.

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obama-pushes-food-stamps-in-mexico/




Because my patience was wearing thin. I was getting the impression that you still doubted that such migrant worker programs actually existed. I have known that they existed in my area for years.
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Cost must be the factor against the local growers bringing in legal workers from Mexico, or maybe it's that there is a big pool of labor here already.

As the illegals continue to go back to Mexico, it may become necessary to import workers as you suggest. If they do, then Trump's wall isn't going to be too effective, is it?
 
Dittohead not! said:
I don't think I've disagreed with any of the Census Bureau's data. What, exactly do you mean?
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If the census bureau provides data that says you lead the nation in poverty, homeless, rank last in quality of life and have among the highest cost of living in the country and you disagree, then you are very poorly informed and my point stands
 
Conservative said:
If the census bureau provides data that says you lead the nation in poverty, homeless, rank last in quality of life and have among the highest cost of living in the country and you disagree, then you are very poorly informed and my point stands
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I don't know about that. I showed you already how the cost of living varies from place to place within the state. Yes, the cost of living along the coast is very high. I think I've said that before. The cost of living in Fresno, California is lower than it is in Houston, Texas, therefore, that cost of living must have more to do with supply and demand than it does with state laws and taxes. I've acknowledged that there is a lot of poverty and homelessness in California. I'm still not sure why a conservative would be more concerned with the poor and homeless than with economic success. If you think the quality of life in Santa Barbara, where it never gets cold, seldom gets hot, almost never rains, and absolutely never snows and where there are beaches galore is higher than it is in New England or Texas then I wonder about the rational for the quality of life. That, like cost of living is quite variable.
 
Conservative said:
You see here is the problem, the Census bureau posts data that you disagree with or ignore thus obviously you are more informed than they are. Suggest you call and let them know that your opinions trump their data
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No; the problem is that you make arguments you can't back up, and then accuse everyone else of being informed.

You can't possibly be a conservative if you refuse to accept personal responsibility even for your own arguments.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I don't know about that. I showed you already how the cost of living varies from place to place within the state. Yes, the cost of living along the coast is very high. I think I've said that before. The cost of living in Fresno, California is lower than it is in Houston, Texas, therefore, that cost of living must have more to do with supply and demand than it does with state laws and taxes. I've acknowledged that there is a lot of poverty and homelessness in California. I'm still not sure why a conservative would be more concerned with the poor and homeless than with economic success. If you think the quality of life in Santa Barbara, where it never gets cold, seldom gets hot, almost never rains, and absolutely never snows and where there are beaches galore is higher than it is in New England or Texas then I wonder about the rational for the quality of life. That, like cost of living is quite variable.
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Do you understand averages? Doesn't matter if one city is lower than another, the total is sets the number for the state and your state is the worst in the nation in so many categories including poverty, homeless, illegals, cost of living, quality of life but what the hell your GDP is 5th in the world so your solution is to force those evil rich people to pay higher taxes as you drive lower tax payers out of the state
 
DifferentDrummr said:
No; the problem is that you make arguments you can't back up, and then accuse everyone else of being informed.

You can't possibly be a conservative if you refuse to accept personal responsibility even for your own arguments.
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Got it, Census provides data that you disagree with and that makes you more informed than they are? LOL, no wonder you people are headed to the trash heap of history
 
Conservative said:
Do you understand averages? Doesn't matter if one city is lower than another, the total is sets the number for the state and your state is the worst in the nation in so many categories including poverty, homeless, illegals, cost of living, quality of life but what the hell your GDP is 5th in the world so your solution is to force those evil rich people to pay higher taxes as you drive lower tax payers out of the state
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Not at all.

My solution to your arguments is to point out that California has a booming economy despite, or perhaps because of, it's liberal politics.

Also despite, or maybe partly because of the illegals.



Despite droughts and the dot com bubble bursting.

California as an independent nation would be one of the richest in the world.

"force those evil rich people to pay higher taxes as you drive lower tax payers out of the state" how does that make any sense at all? The "evil" rich who are being so unfairly taxed actually would leave the state were your statements about happiness and the quality of life anywhere close to accurate. Rich people tend to be able to live wherever they want.
 
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Conservative said:
Got it, Census provides data that you disagree with and that makes you more informed than they are? LOL, no wonder you people are headed to the trash heap of history
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You got it just like this fellow got it:

aubrey-huff-watches-home-run-fly-over-his-head-15349629.jpg
 
Dittohead not! said:
Not at all.

My solution to your arguments is to point out that California has a booming economy despite, or perhaps because of, it's liberal politics.

Also despite, or maybe partly because of the illegals.



Despite droughts and the dot com bubble bursting.

California as an independent nation would be one of the richest in the world.

"force those evil rich people to pay higher taxes as you drive lower tax payers out of the state" how does that make any sense at all? The "evil" rich who are being so unfairly taxed actually would leave the state were your statements about happiness and the quality of life anywhere close to accurate. Rich people tend to be able to live wherever they want.
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Sorry but you have no idea what makes an economy, in spite of the California government, innovative people with great minds created the economy you have, had nothing whatsoever to do with liberalism or your liberal govt, but rather a lot to do with individualism that you now seem to want to destroy. there is no way the rich can pay for the liberal spending appetite and you are going to find out when you start paying for your debt.
 
Conservative said:
Sorry but you have no idea what makes an economy, in spite of the California government, innovative people with great minds created the economy you have, had nothing whatsoever to do with liberalism or your liberal govt, but rather a lot to do with individualism that you now seem to want to destroy. there is no way the rich can pay for the liberal spending appetite and you are going to find out when you start paying for your debt.
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Ah, predictions of doom and gloom! Now, that's convincing. Sure, California has a better economy than the rest of the nation now, but just you wait! That dirty old liberalism, whatever that means, will bring it down, just wait and see.
OK. Let's wait and see.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Ah, predictions of doom and gloom! Now, that's convincing. Sure, California has a better economy than the rest of the nation now, but just you wait! That dirty old liberalism, whatever that means, will bring it down, just wait and see.
OK. Let's wait and see.
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If it didn't happen in 2013, when Conservatives said it would because of tax hikes, or in 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, why would it suddenly happen now, or a year from now, or two years from now?
 
The Derp said:
If it didn't happen in 2013, when Conservatives said it would because of tax hikes, or in 2014, or 2015, or 2016, or 2017, why would it suddenly happen now, or a year from now, or two years from now?
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Maybe it's just an acorn after all, and not the sky falling.
 
Conservative said:
Got it, Census provides data that you disagree with and that makes you more informed than they are? LOL, no wonder you people are headed to the trash heap of history
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Everyone is headed to the trash heap of history eventually. You'll just get there much faster if you keep up this nonsense.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Cost must be the factor against the local growers bringing in legal workers from Mexico, or maybe it's that there is a big pool of labor here already.

As the illegals continue to go back to Mexico, it may become necessary to import workers as you suggest. If they do, then Trump's wall isn't going to be too effective, is it?
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The wall will still be quite effective to help staunch the flow of illegals who just want to take advantage of our entitlement system, not to mention it will help against the MS-13 gangs and drug cartels.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Not at all.

My solution to your arguments is to point out that California has a booming economy despite, or perhaps because of, it's liberal politics.
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So the negative numbers including the poverty, homelessness, and middle to low income taxpayers fleeing the state means nothing to you?

Also despite, or maybe partly because of the illegals.
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Problem is that the state is heading towards a situation were half the population will work to support the other half. When it reaches that level, it will not remain a prosperous state for long. Probably better then half of that problem is related to illegals.


Despite droughts and the dot com bubble bursting.
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Perhaps on some point, California will grow a brain and start building more desalienation (spelling?) plants and become independent with their water resources and stop having to depend on seven other states for water.

California as an independent nation would be one of the richest in the world.
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If California became an independent nation, they would no long be able to feed off of Uncle Sam's teat. They would learn some important lessons in a hurry.

"force those evil rich people to pay higher taxes as you drive lower tax payers out of the state" how does that make any sense at all? The "evil" rich who are being so unfairly taxed actually would leave the state were your statements about happiness and the quality of life anywhere close to accurate. Rich people tend to be able to live wherever they want.
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It's not just the rich people who are being over taxed in your state. And taxes are not the only issue. The cost of living in the state is out of sight. Another issue is regulations.
 
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Dittohead not! said:
Ah, predictions of doom and gloom! Now, that's convincing. Sure, California has a better economy than the rest of the nation now, but just you wait! That dirty old liberalism, whatever that means, will bring it down, just wait and see.
OK. Let's wait and see.
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Misdirected sarcasm is a poor excuse for debate.
 
ObamacareFail said:
The wall will still be quite effective to help staunch the flow of illegals who just want to take advantage of our entitlement system, not to mention it will help against the MS-13 gangs and drug cartels.
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Well, keeping out the MS 13 would be a good thing. We have plenty of home grown members already, and don't need any more. I'm really not sure you can back up the assertion that illegals are coming here to take advantage of our "entitlement" system.
 
ObamacareFail said:
So the negative numbers including the poverty, homelessness, and middle to low income taxpayers fleeing the state means nothing to you?
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When it comes to population, a few "negative numbers" would be a good thing. I keep hearing about how everyone is leaving, yet the population keeps growing. I'd like to see fewer cars on the freeways.

ObamacareFail said:
Problem is that the state is heading towards a situation were half the population will work to support the other half. When it reaches that level, it will not remain a prosperous state for long. Probably better then half of that problem is related to illegals.
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I doubt you can support that, but it has nothing to do with illegals coming here to work anyway.


ObamacareFail said:
Perhaps on some point, California will grow a brain and start building more desalienation (spelling?) plants and become independent with their water resources and stop having to depend on seven other states for water.
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Well, we can hope. I think that is inevitable. This state is drying up.


ObamacareFail said:
If California became an independent nation, they would no long be able to feed off of Uncle Sam's teat. They would learn some important lessons in a hurry.
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California sends more dollars to Uncle Sam than it gets back. It would be even wealthier as an independent nation. Long live the Bear Flag Republic!

ObamacareFail said:
It's not just the rich people who are being over taxed in your state. And taxes are not the only issue. The cost of living in the state is out of sight. Another issue is regulations.
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Cost of living in parts of California are, indeed, out of sight. This is due to supply and demand, largely of housing. There are places where an ordinary suburban home costs upwards of a million dollars. Other places, the same house can be had for under 200 grand. Supply and demand.

Interestingly, it is the poor who are leaving, not the wealthy.
 
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