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Nothing made everything....

Goalpost shift. The standard set in this thread by the self-proclaimed philosophy experts was ONE null hypothesis test.

My views have stayed consistent... It only takes surviving one null hypothesis test for a theory to become a theory of science... Yet, in order to remain a theory of science, that theory must continue to survive null hypothesis testing. If at any point it fails to survive one null hypothesis test, then the theory is utterly destroyed and is no longer a theory of science.
 
To rephrase devildavid's question: what if the universe has always existed?

In my view it's the only concept that is logical. However, the exact nature of "always existed" might be quite different than what we assume it is.
 
No, you can have either or, or both. But if the universe always existed, a creator god is not required.

Either the universe has always existed or you have God who created the universe has always existed

Either way you have still wind up with a mystery that has always existed so in my view the argument is a Fool's errand
 
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To rephrase devildavid's question: what if the universe has always existed?

In my view it's the only concept that is logical. However, the exact nature of "always existed" might be quite different than what we assume it is.

I wouldn't say that it's the only logical concept. It is just as logical of a concept as thinking that the universe is of a finite age. There is no accessible way for us to test the null hypothesis of these theories, so this is outside the realm of science. This is religious discussion. One can only make use of supporting evidence, which doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
 
No, you can have either or, or both. But if the universe always existed, a creator god is not required.

Either the universe has always existed or you have God who created the universe has always existed

Either way you have still wind up with a mystery that has always existed so in my view the argument is a Fool's errand

DD is correct here. Oscar is correct in that, no matter what, we wind up with a mystery (since religion can't be proven/disproven). I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a fool's errand though.
 
DD is correct here. Oscar is correct in that, no matter what, we wind up with a mystery (since religion can't be proven/disproven). I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a fool's errand though.


In my view, what I mean is that It's a fools errand to debate the existence of God or how the universe came into existence. It's not a fools errand to pursue higher awareness, be it rational mind, spiritual awareness, whatever.
 
I wouldn't say that it's the only logical concept. It is just as logical of a concept as thinking that the universe is of a finite age. There is no accessible way for us to test the null hypothesis of these theories, so this is outside the realm of science. This is religious discussion. One can only make use of supporting evidence, which doesn't prove anything one way or the other.



Which is what I meant by

the exact nature of "always existed" might be quite different than what we assume it is.


Where "finite" is the other side of the same coin as ( the above quote )
 
In my view, what I mean is that It's a fools errand to debate the existence of God or how the universe came into existence. It's not a fools errand to pursue higher awareness, be it rational mind, spiritual awareness, whatever.

Thanks for the clarification. I can better agree with that.
 
My views have stayed consistent... It only takes surviving one null hypothesis test for a theory to become a theory of science... Yet, in order to remain a theory of science, that theory must continue to survive null hypothesis testing. If at any point it fails to survive one null hypothesis test, then the theory is utterly destroyed and is no longer a theory of science.

Yes. Your view.

The scientific community doesn't share it. They don't use the word theory that way. You have your own definition nobody cares about.
 
Yes. Your view.
Which is how philosophy defines these terms...

The scientific community doesn't share it.
Appeal to Authority Fallacy. Also, the bolded is being used as a meaningless buzzword. Who consists of "the scientific community"? How many people are in it? Who elected these people into power? Why do these people have such power over science? --- Science is NOT a consensus, nor is it people. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. It's truly that simplistic... You're making it WAY more difficult than it needs to be, and are completely confusing yourself in the process...

They don't use the word theory that way.
And that leads them towards many mistakes...

You have your own definition nobody cares about.
It's not my definition... The definition comes from philosophy, which defines what science is and the reasoning behind that definition.
 
Which is how philosophy defines these terms...


Appeal to Authority Fallacy. Also, the bolded is being used as a meaningless buzzword. Who consists of "the scientific community"? How many people are in it? Who elected these people into power? Why do these people have such power over science? --- Science is NOT a consensus, nor is it people. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. It's truly that simplistic... You're making it WAY more difficult than it needs to be, and are completely confusing yourself in the process...


And that leads them towards many mistakes...


It's not my definition... The definition comes from philosophy, which defines what science is and the reasoning behind that definition.

Please, show where trhe definition 'comes from philosophy' Show your source, and show that you are not making thigns up as you go along. You have trouble showing you speak the truth.
 
Which is how philosophy defines these terms...


Appeal to Authority Fallacy. Also, the bolded is being used as a meaningless buzzword. Who consists of "the scientific community"? How many people are in it? Who elected these people into power? Why do these people have such power over science? --- Science is NOT a consensus, nor is it people. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. It's truly that simplistic... You're making it WAY more difficult than it needs to be, and are completely confusing yourself in the process...
Science is not a consensus but language is. You're looking for some central, innate authority. You're declaring "philosophy" is that authority. Doesn't work that way. Language doesn't work that way. Words are defined by how they are used.
 
Science is not a consensus but language is. You're looking for some central, innate authority. You're declaring "philosophy" is that authority. Doesn't work that way. Language doesn't work that way. Words are defined by how they are used.
Void Argument. You are basing your argument on a buzzword ("the scientific community"). This term is meaningless. What is "the scientific community"?
 
Void Argument. You are basing your argument on a buzzword ("the scientific community"). This term is meaningless. What is "the scientific community"?

It's self-evident. A community of people working in the fields of science. The prevailing use of the word "theory" is exactly what I described.
 
Please, show where trhe definition 'comes from philosophy' Show your source, and show that you are not making thigns up as you go along. You have trouble showing you speak the truth.
RAMOSS, I can't just open up a book and "show you philosophy".

Philosophy doesn't make use of outside sources. Philosophy only makes use of the reasoning of an argument itself. This is because philosophy is all about how and why we reason.
 
RAMOSS, I can't just open up a book and "show you philosophy".

Philosophy doesn't make use of outside sources. Philosophy only makes use of the reasoning of an argument itself. This is because philosophy is all about how and why we reason.

Why, yes yes you can. When it comes to showing what the definition is, and how it comes from philosophy, you can. For example, the Standford encyclopedia of philosophy is online, and is a resource one can rely on. You do not seem to have the ability to back up your claims, even when there are resources online that can be used to cite your references. It's quite possible to support philosophical claims, yet you are unwilling to.
 
It's self-evident. A community of people working in the fields of science.
There is no such thing as "fields of science". Science does not consist of "fields". It consists of falsifiable theories. Anyone can come up with a falsifiable theory. Anyone can be a "scientist". Thus, anyone can be part of "the scientific community", even myself. So no, "the scientific community" does NOT define the word 'theory' differently because, well, "science"... The word theory was already defined by philosophy. It is a word that is used in all facets of reasoning, thus it is ultimately philosophy that defines the word. The word is used in the same way in all of these facets of reasoning... Science doesn't change what a 'theory' is...

The prevailing use of the word "theory" is exactly what I described.
False. The prevailing use of the word 'theory' is exactly how philosophy has defined it... as "an explanatory argument".
 
There is no such thing as "fields of science". Science does not consist of "fields". It consists of falsifiable theories. Anyone can come up with a falsifiable theory. Anyone can be a "scientist". Thus, anyone can be part of "the scientific community", even myself. So no, "the scientific community" does NOT define the word 'theory' differently because, well, "science"... The word theory was already defined by philosophy. It is a word that is used in all facets of reasoning, thus it is ultimately philosophy that defines the word. The word is used in the same way in all of these facets of reasoning... Science doesn't change what a 'theory' is...
So, you are suggesting "astrophysics" and "evolutionary biology" are not "fields" of science. Ok then. Whatever dude. You speak a different language than I do.

False. The prevailing use of the word 'theory' is exactly how philosophy has defined it... as "an explanatory argument".
False.
 
There is no such thing as "fields of science". Science does not consist of "fields". It consists of falsifiable theories.

Ok. This is 100% wrong. This is so outrageously wrong that shows a total misunderstanding of both science and philosophy.

A field of science is a discipline about a specific subject. For example, one field of science is the study of life. This is known as 'biology'. Another field of science is the study of matter and energy, and how they interact. This is known as 'physics'... it is further subdivided in to disciples as classical mechanics, relativity, , quantum mechanics, and other fields. I would give a link , but I suggest you look it up yourself. I wouldn't want it to be dismissed as a 'holy link'.
 
Ok. This is 100% wrong. This is so outrageously wrong that shows a total misunderstanding of both science and philosophy.

A field of science is a discipline about a specific subject. For example, one field of science is the study of life. This is known as 'biology'. Another field of science is the study of matter and energy, and how they interact. This is known as 'physics'... it is further subdivided in to disciples as classical mechanics, relativity, , quantum mechanics, and other fields. I would give a link , but I suggest you look it up yourself. I wouldn't want it to be dismissed as a 'holy link'.
That definition I can work with... That's what I think of as "branches" of a particular overarching study... Chemistry would be one "branch" of science. Biology, as you say, would be another "branch" stemming from science.

And yes, I would have likely dismissed your link as a holy link. But here you offered up a definition of "field" (discipline) all on your own, and it is a definition that I can work with and agree with. Good job! :)
 
That definition I can work with... That's what I think of as "branches" of a particular overarching study... Chemistry would be one "branch" of science. Biology, as you say, would be another "branch" stemming from science.

And yes, I would have likely dismissed your link as a holy link. But here you offered up a definition of "field" (discipline) all on your own, and it is a definition that I can work with and agree with. Good job! :)

Uh... No, it's not all my own. It's how it is generally used. Do you know the difference about making words up , and using words as other people use them? Both philosophy and science are disciplines that use words in a specific manner. The definitions of those words are agreed upon.. and they attempt to use it consistently. That way communication and understanding of what the other person is saying is facilitated. Using words by making it up on your own , and using non-standardard definitions disrupts communication.

And, how are the standardized meaning of terms communicated?? They are communicated through text books, encyclopedias and dictionaries.
 
That is not a non-sequitur. Fallacy fallacy.

Sure it is. It does not automatically follow, therefore it is a non sequitur. If you wanted to say, "We exist, and I believe it's because we were created by a higher power, that would be a statement of faith, not "fact", and therefore not a non sequitur.

The Theory of Creation is but one of two theories that life itself is supporting evidence. The other is the Theory of Abiogenesis. Both theories are nonscientific theories. They remain circular arguments, when in and of themselves is not a fallacy. Both theories have arguments extending from those initial circular arguments. Both theories are therefore religions.

Nope. Not even close. A religion is based on acceptance based solely on faith. Those who accept abiogenesis as the more likely cause of life do so because they reject the whole "let there be" story, and when there are only two choices, there you are.

Both theories

Again, one's a theory and the other is blind acceptance. Big difference.

have people trying to prove them. Both theories have fundamentalists in those religions. A fundamentalist makes the circular argument fallacy (the failure to recognize a circular argument).

The Theory of Creation doesn't even require a god or gods. It simply refers to the actions of a intelligence. It does not try to define what that intelligence is. We could be the result of some lab experiment gone horribly wrong on some alien world and they dumped it here to get rid of it. That is still the Theory of Creation.

Nope. Creationism covers the creation of life. Where did those aliens come from?

Christians place the role of 'intelligence' to be a god. That changes nothing about either theory.

Atheism is also a religion.

Nope. Rejecting completely unsupported claims is not religion.

It is not possible to prove a god or gods exist, but it is also not possible to prove a god or gods do not exist. Atheism itself is based on the initial circular argument that no god or gods exist and extend arguments from that.

A non-sequitur fallacy is the use of an unrelated predicate to a conclusion. An example of a non-sequitur argument is, "the last card I drew was a three of clubs, therefore my dog is hungry.". No card or cards drawn have anything to do with dogs or their state of hunger.

That is a super obvious example of a non sequitur. A more subtle example is to make a conclusion about the existence of a higher power just because there is a universe. It's more subtle because it's a direct attempt at providing an explanation for something. It's a non sequitur because it states a conclusion that does not necessarily follow.

If you want to claim a fallacy here, it must be directed to a specific individual making the fallacy.

Ok, pick a believer, any believer, who says we exist because there is a god who created us, and I will direct my statement at him/her/zim/ze/zer/zit.

To someone trying to prove Christianity, for example,that fallacy would be the circular argument fallacy (fundamentalism). Directing a fallacy to a group of individuals is a compositional error, a fallacy in it's own right. That fallacy occurs when one tries to extend the property of an element of a class across the entire class or to the class itself. You should cautious about this particular fallacy. If the class is people, this fallacy is also called 'bigotry'. That's what 'bigotry' is. If the property being extended is a genetic trait, that fallacy is known as 'racism' also. Those who have a habit of making compositional errors usually make the mistake of applying it to people as the class at some point.

Well, that was just too far afield for me to comment on, but I did want you to know that I bothered to read it all since you took the trouble to respond in detail.
 
A religion is based on acceptance based solely on faith.
Yes, it begins with an initial circular argument, and makes other arguments which stem from that initial circular argument.

Those who accept abiogenesis as the more likely cause of life do so because they reject the whole "let there be" story, and when there are only two choices, there you are.
Those who accept creationism as the more likely cause of life do so because they reject the whole "life resulted from a series of random unspecified events" story, and when there are only two choices, there you are.

Do you see how poor your reasoning is here?

Again, one's a theory and the other is blind acceptance. Big difference.
WRONG. They are both non-scientific theories. -- What null hypothesis testing has been conducted on the Theory of Abiogenesis? If none, then wouldn't that also be 'blind acceptance' (as you mean it)?

Nope. Creationism covers the creation of life. Where did those aliens come from?
Maybe they were the "gods" that created life?

Nope. Rejecting completely unsupported claims is not religion.
As you use the term "unsupported claims" (meaning unproven assertions) , Atheism ITSELF is an unsupported claim.

Unless you're agnostic, you are a practitioner of religion...

Ok, pick a believer, any believer, who says we exist because there is a god who created us, and I will direct my statement at him/her/zim/ze/zer/zit.
I believe that we exist because there is a God (the Christian God) who created us. Now direct whatever statement you have at me...

Also, there is no such thing as a zim, ze, zer, or zit. There is only him or her. Man or woman. Those are the only two options...

Well, that was just too far afield for me to comment on, but I did want you to know that I bothered to read it all since you took the trouble to respond in detail.
Argument of the Stone fallacy.
 
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Those who accept creationism as the more likely cause of life do so because they reject the whole "life resulted from a series of random unspecified events" story, and when there are only two choices, there you are.

Do you see how poor your reasoning is here?

How is that poor reasoning? I clearly stated that when there are only 2 choices, the rejection of one leaves you with the other. I know it works both ways and never suggested otherwise. I merely stated which of the two I accept.
 
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