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[W:183]Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

RaleBulgarian said:
The intent/meaning of your words have not been altered. My response stands as is.
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If deception is your goal, then you are free to be proud that you have achieved your goal.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Scrabaholic said:
There is nothing in there about so called "post birth abortion". Why are you lying?
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When the abortion laws are recommended to extend to the ending of the life of a child that is new born, being made comfortable and is the subject of the consideration to extend or end their life, that sounds like "post birth abortion".

The child is already born and therefore it is "post birth". The topic is "abortion". Therefore: "post birth abortion". Are you really incapable of grasping this? Why? How?

You, I assume, are also in a condition that is "post birth". Let that sink in.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

code1211 said:
Did you read the pull quote?

That is EXACTLY what Governor Black Face was endorsing.
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I’ve read the entire transcript of the interview, several times, and nowhere in it does Northam propose or support murdering a baby that survives an attempted abortion.

“When we talk about third trimester abortions … it’s done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that is non-viable,” Northam said. “If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”

Again, STOP LYING.

code1211 said:
If deception is your goal, then you are free to be proud that you have achieved your goal.
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Please explain how I have misrepresented your comments.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Blue Donkey said:
Please explain to Vegas where you get the lies about Virginia's abortion law from.
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I believe I was talking about what Governor Black Face said in the radio interview defending the proposal before the Virginia legislature.

Governor Northam is talking specifically about a baby that has already been delivered. in the definitions in the US Constitution, that means "born".

Northam on Abortion Bill: Infant Could Be Delivered and Then 'Physicians and the Mother' Could Decide If It Lives

[h=1]Northam on Abortion Bill: Infant Could Be Delivered and Then ‘Physicians and the Mother’ Could Decide If It Lives[/h]<snip>
Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam (D.) commented Wednesday about a controversial 40-week abortion bill and in so doing said the law allows an abortion to take place after the infant's birth.
"If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother," Northam said, alluding to the physician and mother discussing whether the born infant should live or die.
<snip>
"I wasn't there, Julie. And I certainly can't speak for delegate Tran. But I would tell you one, the first think I would say, this is why decisions such as this should be made by providers, physicians, and the mothers and fathers that are involved," Northam said. "When we talk about third trimester abortions, these are done with the consent of obviously the mother, with the consent of the physicians, more than one physician by the way. And it is done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that is non-viable."
<snip>
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

code1211 said:
I believe I was talking about what Governor Black Face said in the radio interview defending the proposal before the Virginia legislature.

Governor Northam is talking specifically about a baby that has already been delivered. in the definitions in the US Constitution, that means "born".

Northam on Abortion Bill: Infant Could Be Delivered and Then 'Physicians and the Mother' Could Decide If It Lives

[h=1]Northam on Abortion Bill: Infant Could Be Delivered and Then ‘Physicians and the Mother’ Could Decide If It Lives[/h]<snip>
Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam (D.) commented Wednesday about a controversial 40-week abortion bill and in so doing said the law allows an abortion to take place after the infant's birth.
"If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother," Northam said, alluding to the physician and mother discussing whether the born infant should live or die.
<snip>
"I wasn't there, Julie. And I certainly can't speak for delegate Tran. But I would tell you one, the first think I would say, this is why decisions such as this should be made by providers, physicians, and the mothers and fathers that are involved," Northam said. "When we talk about third trimester abortions, these are done with the consent of obviously the mother, with the consent of the physicians, more than one physician by the way. And it is done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that is non-viable."
<snip>
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Yep nothing wrong with that
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Don't see how anyone could read what Governor Northam said and think it mean anything but "killing a baby" with the consent of the mother and her doctor.

In other words, flat out murder.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Dayton3 said:
Don't see how anyone could read what Governor Northam said and think it mean anything but "killing a baby" with the consent of the mother and her doctor.

In other words, flat out murder.
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God I hope they get to kill.the baby if it is facing those horrible circumstances.


Only a monster would be against this
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Dayton3 said:
Don't see how anyone could read what Governor Northam said and think it mean anything but "killing a baby" with the consent of the mother and her doctor.

In other words, flat out murder.
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So, in your opinion, when the next of kin to a patient who was involved in a terrible car crash that has left them completely paralyzed, severely brain damaged, and in a persistent coma, allows the medical team to withdraw life support measures is a murderer?
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

RaleBulgarian said:
So, in your opinion, when the next of kin to a patient who was involved in a terrible car crash that has left them completely paralyzed, severely brain damaged, and in a persistent coma, allows the medical team to withdraw life support measures is a murderer?
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Depends on the circumstances. I'll say this, the last people I would want making life or death decisions on my behalf would be the ones that would feel obligated to care for me the rest of my life. Better some lousy politician than that (of course I'm not one of those that loathes politicians).
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Dayton3 said:
Depends on the circumstances. I'll say this, the last people I would want making life or death decisions on my behalf would be the ones that would feel obligated to care for me the rest of my life. Better some lousy politician than that (of course I'm not one of those that loathes politicians).
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How alone.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Dayton3 said:
Depends on the circumstances. I'll say this, the last people I would want making life or death decisions on my behalf would be the ones that would feel obligated to care for me the rest of my life. Better some lousy politician than that (of course I'm not one of those that loathes politicians).
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Really, if it was your parent, spouse, or one of your children you’d want a politician to decide?

I cannot fathom the logic of wanting a politician to choose life or death for anyone I care about.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

RaleBulgarian said:
Really, if it was your parent, spouse, or one of your children you’d want a politician to decide?

I cannot fathom the logic of wanting a politician to choose life or death for anyone I care about.
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Well I don 't want to be the one making a decision like that.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Dayton3 said:
Well I don 't want to be the one making a decision like that.
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Believe me, I understand. I’ve been in the situation and it’s an absolutely soul crushing choice to have to make. Still, I’m glad that I was there to carry out her wish.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Blue Donkey said:
With all of that said, let's begin. The United States Constitution is very clear that zygotes, blastocysts, embryos, and fetuses have no rights
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Where exactly is that stated in the Constitution? NOWHERE.



They got around that by claiming the woman's right to personal privacy - which isn't in the Constitution, either!



Justice Harry Blackmun wrote the majority opinion in Roe, and even he admitted “the Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy.”

How do you go about finding rights that the Constitution makes no mention of? I’m gonna let Justice Blackmun explain that himself.

In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as Union Pacific R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251 (1891), the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution.
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“Abortion rights” are in the Constitution? Show me where.






and all girls and women have the rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and lifestyle choices. This can't be denied. Also undeniable are the definitions of murder and homicide, which have always been limited to killing born humans for malicious reasons in both English dictionaries and books about law. So the abortion debate is not about if the right to have abortions does exist, but everything else - sociology, biology, maternity, crimes, and personal finance.
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I think, the real issue is really whether Roe vs Wade (the right to privacy), can be overturned.
 
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Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

tosca1 said:
Where exactly is that stated in the Constitution?






I think, the real issue is really whether Roe vs Wade can be overturned.
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Anything can be overturned. I think it is highly unlikely though
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

vegas giants said:
Anything can be overturned. I think it is highly unlikely though
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I don't know about the un-likelihood of that. It depends on judges' interpretation of the Constitution - particularly, the Supreme Court!

What is obvious though, is the Dem's rabid fear of that likelihood - thus, at seeming all cost - they don't want a second term for Trump.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

tosca1 said:
I don't know about the un-likelihood of that. It depends on judges' interpretation of the Constitution - particularly, the Supreme Court!

What is obvious though, is the Dem's rabid fear of that likelihood - thus, at seeming all cost - they don't want a second term for Trump.
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It is something to fear. That would be awful. But conservatives have a majority on the court now and wont even bring a case. I'm not overly concerned
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

tosca1 said:
Where exactly is that stated in the Constitution? NOWHERE.



They got around that by claiming the woman's right to personal privacy - which isn't in the Constitution, either!




“Abortion rights” are in the Constitution? Show me where.








I think, the real issue is really whether Roe vs Wade (the right to privacy), can be overturned.
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The idea of a woman having control over her reproduction abilities is tied to liberty of the individual.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Blue Donkey said:
The emotions come out when so-called pro-lifers (who I think are really anti-choicers) call abortion "murdering infants" despite the obvious fact no English dictionary calls it that. If they would stop playing those stupid word games, only facts would determine what is moral*because pro-choicers based their claims on factual information. It is a FACT that legally, embryos and fetuses are not people. It is a FACT that only born humans have any legal rights in the U.S. Constitution. It is a FACT that only born humans under a year old can be victims of infanticide. On the pro-choice side, emotions come into play when the argument is about why elective abortions must be legal, not just those that are medically necessary.
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I like that you accuse the people who disagree with you of using emotionally charged language, after opening up by describing them with emotionally charged language :).
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

cpwill said:
I like that you accuse the people who disagree with you of using emotionally charged language, after opening up by describing them with emotionally charged language :).
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I never shy away from emotionally charged language. If someone wants to call it murdering a little baby that's fine with me.


Just keep it legal
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Blue Donkey said:
Synmpathy is the dominant emotion for pro-choicers. A woman's right to have an abortion is based on facts, but the reason she wants or needs one is emotional. As a pro-choicer, I always use the poor single woman example. Lursa, weaver, minnie, amd vegas have a lot to say about what would have happened to the kids if they were not aborted, but I usually stick with the woman's health care.
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Wrong. Not for me. I think you should reconsider making blanket statements for either side.

Women's equal rights has nothing to do with sympathy.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

tosca1 said:
Where exactly is that stated in the Constitution? NOWHERE.
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It is explicit in the 14th Amendment.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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Unless you have no idea what the word "born" means, it could not be more obvious.

They got around that by claiming the woman's right to personal privacy - which isn't in the Constitution, either!
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They did not have to get around anything. In addition to 14A Section 1, he 9th Amendment was also used.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
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Did you learn what this means in high school American government class?

I think, the real issue is really whether Roe vs. Wade (the right to privacy), can be overturned.
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If the right to privacy was not in our Constitution, we would have no rights to privacy at all, because without that, all privacy laws would be unconstitutional.
 
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Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

code1211 said:
An example of what? Abortion? Tooth extraction?

The example that I provided previously in this thread was of Gov. Northam, presumably not wearing black face during the statement, saying that post birth abortion was exactly the procedure he was recommending.

He endorsed that procedure as described in the bill which was at the time pending before the Virginia Legislature.

Out of curiosity, are you asserting that if a defined act was never performed legally, then that defined act must be in line with the moral standards embraced by any society?
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Why are you lying? Northam did not say that at all.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

code1211 said:
When the abortion laws are recommended to extend to the ending of the life of a child that is new born, being made comfortable and is the subject of the consideration to extend or end their life, that sounds like "post birth abortion".

The child is already born and therefore it is "post birth". The topic is "abortion". Therefore: "post birth abortion". Are you really incapable of grasping this? Why? How?

You, I assume, are also in a condition that is "post birth". Let that sink in.
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Abortion is termination of pregnancy. Once the child is born, there is no pregnancy to terminate.

And nothing was said about ending the life of the child. Stop lying.
 
Re: Let's have a real discussion about abortion

Dayton3 said:
Don't see how anyone could read what Governor Northam said and think it mean anything but "killing a baby" with the consent of the mother and her doctor.

In other words, flat out murder.
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There is nothing in there saying that. Stop lying.
 
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