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[W:69] Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
Infantacide. The party of democrats. Taxes, open borders, infantacide.
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That's a lot of hate and intolerance, Crystal.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I'm sorry murder is a legal issue and it's black and white.

I'm not really interested in discussions about what is right and what is wrong that is a moralistic argument and morality is subjective.
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When we cannot view the picture outside of the frame we get narrow decisions that often hurt people and make no sense. For example, if a transgender woman committed murder, would you argue to throw her in prison in an all-male prison? That would be ridiculous. That transgender woman would get gang raped in prison.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
Killing viable live infants is infantacide. Saying it isn’t won’t make it so.
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Define viable. Does healthy ever enter into it? Does life expectation? What I mean by that is that late term abortions, which are RARE by the way, are not performed for reasons other than the discovery, during that last trimester, that the fetus has a severe birth defect, often one that would make its life short and painful with zero hope of recovery.

You seem to have the very mistaken impression that women are having late term abortions out of convenience, because they were too stupid or mean or lazy to make that decision in the first trimester. Trust me, NO woman makes one of those rare late term decisions lightly, or just because she changed her mind at the last minute. It's about her survival, or the survival of the fetus.

To me, the bottom line is this: what another woman decides is HER business, and no one else's. Perhaps you should look to your own self, and stop judging the decisions of others.
 
CLAX1911 said:
some would argue viability begins at conception because that's where all living human beings began. even children is the oldest five or six depend on their parents. So you could see if 5 or 6 year old isn't viable because you're using your body working in providing food and shelter and clothing for that child.

I think this is the strongest argument that you can make for the pro-choice position. I can't figure out how to argue against it.
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A born child is not dependent on its bio mom.

Before viability an unborn is dependent of its bio mom.
If the pregnant woman dies and her bodily functions stop , the unborn would not survive even if quickly removed and given the best medical help and equipment.

If the pregnant dies after the unborn is viable,it will most likely survive if quickly removed and given medical help if needed.

A nurse, the father, a foster parent, an adoptive parent, or another caretaker can fed an take care of infant.
 
Obscurity said:
I disagree. We don't rule by democratic standards. The constitution exists to protect the rights of the few against the desires of the many. This standard has played out across many spectrums of our legal system from the economy to social issues.
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of course but the argument was that this was something that belongs to the early 20th century and clearly that's not true. If people are discussing it now and courts are making decisions about it now it belongs to this current time period.

The majority of people want to tax the rich excessively and they have been insulated from it, for example.


Since you're clearly pro birth, perhaps you can answer where Crystal has failed:
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the fetus is not in prison it is in the womb. The mother is incarcerated. I believe in the department of corrections There Are places set up for expecting mothers and new mothers to bond with their baby before proper arrangements can be made or can be fulfilled for the baby's guardianship. as far as Church goes if a mother can drag her two-year-old to church against their will or drag them to the doctor against their will or make them go to bed against their will then she can carry herping born child into church the swimming pools anywhere she wants.



The heartbeat law is unconstitutional because it unreasonably restricts access to abortion. It unreasonably places a burden on women to essentially abort when they don't know they're pregnant.
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this is a fantastic are you against the heartbeat bill. Because a fetus's heartbeat is detectable as early as 5 weeks. If we say that abortion is not murder and therefore a woman has the right to have one, you can't place this restriction on it.

I suspect it is an effort to essentially make abortion illegal because 5 weeks is pushing it on whether or not the woman would know she's pregnant.

Nice ink giorgia should abandon this and if they want to place restrictions on abortion they should go at it directly


This is a direct assault on Roe V Wade and the final target is, of course, Griswold V. Connecticut. Now that the conservative SCOTUS has proven itself to be full of **** with regard to respecting stare decisis, I see no reason to believe these other laws will not be struck down or rendered toothless.
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I agree with you with regard to it being an attempt to circumvent roe v Wade. I don't think the Supreme Court will uphold this. Unless you are correct and we aren't really a constitutional republic but the subjects of judicial activism, I did not regard upholding roe v Wade would be just as biased and just as partisan as circumventing it.

You either believe in the traditional system and what it does or you think it's a farce even when the justices sitting on it agree with you.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Idiometer said:
Define viable. Does healthy ever enter into it? Does life expectation? What I mean by that is that late term abortions, which are RARE by the way, are not performed for reasons other than the discovery, during that last trimester, that the fetus has a severe birth defect, often one that would make its life short and painful with zero hope of recovery.

You seem to have the very mistaken impression that women are having late term abortions out of convenience, because they were too stupid or mean or lazy to make that decision in the first trimester. Trust me, NO woman makes one of those rare late term decisions lightly, or just because she changed her mind at the last minute. It's about her survival, or the survival of the fetus.

To me, the bottom line is this: what another woman decides is HER business, and no one else's. Perhaps you should look to your own self, and stop judging the decisions of others.
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Sonograms! Early!
 
minnie616 said:
A born child is not dependent on its bio mom.
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is that would really depend on whether or not the biological mother is the child's caregiver than yes it is dependent upon her.

Before viability an unborn is dependent of its bio mom.
If the pregnant woman dies and her bodily functions stop , the unborn would not survive even if quickly removed and given the best medical help and equipment.

If the pregnant dies after the unborn is viable,it will most likely survive if quickly removed and given medical help if needed.
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this seems like a circular argument. Viability by its very definition negates non-viability and vice versa.



A nurse, the father, a foster parent, an adoptive parent, or another caretaker can fed an take care of infant.
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true adoptive parents can take over or assume responsibility, but they are still using their bodies through work and caregiving in order to make sure this child is healthy. So the argument becomes if I have the autonomy to save that I don't have to use my body my strength my labor my time my effort to sustain another human being why should someone have to do that to sustain a child after it's born?
 
Bucky said:
When we cannot view the picture outside of the frame we get narrow decisions that often hurt people and make no sense.
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I'm sorry murder is very clear-cut. That's how we were able to prosecute people for it.

The question here is not whether or not murder is clear-cut but whether or not abortion or in the case presented by the previous poster mercy killing is murder.

Personally I'm not convinced either way on both of those points. But we'll stick to just abortion so as not to get too far off into the weeds.

Pro-life advocates make good point. You have as well.

I must thank you for your matter-of-fact presentation of your argument. I very much admire that.

For example, if a transgender woman committed murder, would you argue to throw her in prison in an all-male prison? That would be ridiculous. That transgender woman would get gang raped in prison.
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well men getting raped in prison. But as far as the transgendered person goes I would base it on anatomy. If she has a functional penis absolutely not allowed in the female population in prison. There are several reasons for why I would say that but yeah and I don't want to get too far off in the weeds I'm enjoying our discussion.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
I am not lying.


Tell me. If an abortion is attempted and the baby survives it and is alive should he or she receive medical treatment? Warming, feeding etc?
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Can you link to even one instance where that has happened? One in which the fetus was viable, healthy, and able to survive outside the womb?
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Idiometer said:
Can you link to even one instance where that has happened? One in which the fetus was viable, healthy, and able to survive outside the womb?
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That's a bit of an unreasonable request. As far as I know the only organization that performs Abortions is planned Parenthood and they have a vested interest in keeping that sort of occurrence under wraps. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a fetus can survive an abortion procedure. I doubt it's common at all, but all we can go by is testimonials from former workers they seem to indicate that it did occur. Often times they are treated as political actors.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
When Obama was a state senator he voted against “comfort care.”
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I sure wish you knew what you were talking about regarding your so-called "comfort care."

Here is a story about a late term abortion decision. The only difference between this woman and the others who have had to make such an agonizing choice is that this woman was a medical student studying neonatality.

Abortion as end-of-life care: Why I chose a peaceful life and death for my son.

Read the whole thing, please. This woman, had she lived in today's state of Georgia, would be in PRISON.

Please stop judging what you don't understand, or shame on you.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Cougarbear said:
Cougarbear: I know. Killing human beings should never be punishable. I mean, if you kill a bald eagle, you get 3 years in jail and a huge fine. But, kill a baby, just because it's still in your womb, jail and fining is just plain wrong! Those little babies are not worth the value of a bald eagle! We should hang murderers of bald eagles. I mean, really!!!
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Dear Cougarbear:

You are judging something that you do not, and cannot, understand. When YOU can get pregnant, then perhaps your opinion will have some merit, but for you to sit in judgment of what women decide for their own bodies is downright arrogant.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
I posted what I posted. It’s right there.
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The video you posted does not show anyone saying what you are claiming.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

nota bene said:
Moderator's Warning:
Enough of the "You're lying"/"No, you are" stuff and accusations of trolling.
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Thank you. That's the first time I've ever seen a warning from the mods. I was wanting to tell them to get a room!
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Bucky said:
In many situations however we need to take away that choice from the mother. Her judgment is often clouded and inaccurate. If a pregnant woman is essentially a ward of the state, how much rights does she really have?
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Please do not tell me you are peddling the crap about a woman being mentally unstable because of pregnancy hormones...therefore cannot make coherent decisions.....
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
You are a typical pro abortionist. You fool yourself by trying to say pro choice but it’s really all about the abortion. At any stage.
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So now you're judging forum participants?

Why is it that only conservatives try to put words, thoughts, and feelings into the virtual mouths of others? I never see liberals doing that.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
Seems to me a moderator just asked us to stop with the accusations of lying. You just plan on ignoring him or her?
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Ok, I will make it easy for you. Here are his words.

His exact words.

“If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother,” Northam said in the interview.

Watch: Gov. Northam addresses late-term abortion bill after backlash | WTKR.com

Which ones indicate "killing a baby" to you and why?
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

CLAX1911 said:
That's a bit of an unreasonable request. As far as I know the only organization that performs Abortions is planned Parenthood and they have a vested interest in keeping that sort of occurrence under wraps. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a fetus can survive an abortion procedure. I doubt it's common at all, but all we can go by is testimonials from former workers they seem to indicate that it did occur. Often times they are treated as political actors.
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Private clinics, private doctors and hospitals also perform abortions.

When clinic abortions are performed in the late second trimester a D and E is performed which means it is dismembered and removed in pieces. Intact D and Es were banned at clinics when the partial birth ban went to effect.


Only hospitals allow early induced abortions or c-section abortions where there is a slight chance the infant might survive.

Yes, early induced labor of a non viable fetus is given or a C-section of a non viable fetus is performed, It is still an abortion and is included in the abortion stats.

From:

There is a false belief that induction of labor early for a lethal anomaly is not an abortion. It is.

The end.
...
Why can’t they just perform a C-section ?

First of all, a c-section for an early delivery of a non-viable fetus is still an abortion. #TheMoreYouKnow.

That people don’t grasp this is shocking. And why these discussions are best left to experts who don’t impose their own religion on patients.
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Read more:


Abortions at or after 24 weeks are sometimes needed medically. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. | Dr. Jen Gunter



If that ever happened than the Born Alive Infants Protection Act would take place and there would be 2 choices.

1 extraordinary care or
2. Palliative care.
 
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Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
Sure I do. I understood it too when your lot mandated me to buy health insurance and threatened to punish me if I didn’t. Remember that?
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What does the now-defunct personal mandate have to do with abortion? And BTW, that mandate was ignored by millions who chose to pay the much lower tax penalty, so there WAS a choice. (Don't misunderstand me, I never favored the ACA, but it is better than what the insurance industry was getting away with previously.)

Epic fail on that analogy.

:failpail:
 
Bucky said:
Question: Under any circumstances, do you support abortion?
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No one supports abortion. What most support is every woman's right to privacy and autonomy over her own body, which means SHE chooses, period, and everyone else should just butt out.
 
Bucky said:
And I doubt Clax supports the fetus rights over the mother's right if her life was in danger. Also, does he support fetus rights in case of rape and incest?
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To me, the key word there is "he." Who gives a rat's ass what HE thinks? HE can't get pregnant.

Pregnancy and abortion are a women's issue, IMO.

:twocents:
 
CLAX1911 said:
the fetus is not in prison it is in the womb. The mother is incarcerated. I believe in the department of corrections There Are places set up for expecting mothers and new mothers to bond with their baby before proper arrangements can be made or can be fulfilled for the baby's guardianship. as far as Church goes if a mother can drag her two-year-old to church against their will or drag them to the doctor against their will or make them go to bed against their will then she can carry herping born child into church the swimming pools anywhere she wants.
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The fetus is defacto in prison with the pregnant mother against its will. This alone displays the pro birth position is authoritarian and ignorant of law as well as constitutional rights.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
Sonograms! Early!
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I'd like an answer from you on my questions earlier.

It's alright for you to admit you don't have one.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Obscurity said:
I'd like an answer from you on my questions earlier.

It's alright for you to admit you don't have one.
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‘What was it?
 
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