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Why is abortion acceptable?

Re: If your Snark be a Boojum!

Raelia said:
Everyone is made up of cells, calling something a clump of cells does not make it not human. You have to, therefor, either argue that it's not living or that it's not human. If it's not human, it must necessarily be another species, making it self-evident that it is, indeed, human. As for the argument that it's not living, it fulfills all the criteria for being a living thing, as it takes in energy to SURVIVE, it is an organized construct, it exhibits cellular growth. Scientifically, it is, in fact, a living human, therefor arguing that one can murder it is special pleading.
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We have plenty of ways to determine humanity and the brain dead are terminated because they are also not human anymore. To profess that having human cells automatically makes you human is degrading to humanity.
 
Lursa said:
Only if you believe in God.

OTOH, those of us that do know that God does not like but understands the justifiable taking of life. War, self-defense, abortion, assisted suicide, etc.
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lol...
 
Lursa said:
Good point. My usage of mother was no more accurate than the use of 'baby' or 'child' to describe the unborn.

Thank you.
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You are welcome. Now that we know you were wrong about one it stands to reason you are wrong about the other. BTW Princton University and numerous medical publications also say you are wrong. Human life begins at conception sp technically it is an unborn baby.
 
Lursa said:
So you wont admit that you are so arrogantly trying to usurp Our Lord's prerogative giving us free will by trying to make laws that would FORCE women to comply, even as He has chosen not to do so? Tsk tsk tsk...He'll remember that someday, if you reach Heaven.
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lol...
 
Re: Can we get a more detailed explanation?

Raelia said:
Ethics from first principals is objective, not opinion. You're only referring to it as opinion because you lack the argument to refute my point.
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And if that were true, you could source it. And you dont. So since there is only your claim, it's no more than personal opinion on your part that the unborn are entitled to rights.

I can write 'the moon is made of green cheese,' that doesnt make it true.


No, there should not be restrictions on abortions, "laws" and the enforcement thereof are initiations of force by an illegitimate entity. Murdering the child, however, would be an initiation of force, therefor retaliation would be justified. I already explained this to you at length, but I see your memory is as foggy as your grasp of ethics.
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Works for me!

We have no reason for further discussion. Your lack of hypocrisy is refreshing here in this sub-forum.
 
Raelia said:
The bold is not a refutation of my claim, it's a refutation of an argument that I never made. I used biological facts to prove that the "fetus" is a living human, I then used ethics from first principles to prove that depriving one individual of rights that every other human has inherently is unethical. I also pointed out that your entire argument is special pleading. In other words, you can claim you refuted my argument all you want, your argument was proven fallacious.
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You proved nothing, refuted nothing, because you offered zero beyond your personal opinion.

But I no longer care if you do. You've written it enough now...and been unable to support it...so that it's very clear.

People can read it and make up their own minds.
 
gfm7175 said:
Precisely correct.


Yup... People have free will to do whatever they want to do.


Irrelevant tangent...


Yup, but it is a grossly immoral option, which deprives many children from living lives like you and I enjoy today... I find that to be morally reprehensible...
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What is immoral is taking away a women's right to control their own body because you think a clump of cells has a soul. A fetus is not a human being, it is a clump of cells that may or may not become a living breathing human. 3/4's of fertilized eggs do not survive. Do you tihink we should morn them all?
 
Raelia said:
1.)I already proved it was unethical.
2.) Claiming that an unborn child does not have the same rights as other humans on the basis of being unborn is no different from claiming that blacks didn't have rights, and slavery is therefor ethical.
3.) Both positions are fallacious, as they require special pleading.
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1.) you did no such thing, no matter how many times you repeat that lie it will never be true LMAO
2.) actually its completely different since blacks/slaves were not inside another human . . . that isnt even close to analogous
3.) i agree both false claims you made up are fallacious and you cant support them with one single fact that makes them true . . not one :)

so here we are in the same place, you making factual wrong statements you cant cant back up

you have claimed:
abortion is murder
abortion is unethical
abortion unjustified killing of an innocent individual
ethics are objective

yet you cant provide one fact that makes any of that true . . .not one . . those are just your feelings and some of them are factually wrong

heck i directly challenge you or ANYBODY to present one fact that makes any of those feelings of yours facts. . .please do so in your next post, thanks!
 
Raelia said:
I already proved it was unethical. Claiming that an unborn child does not have the same rights as other humans on the basis of being unborn is no different from claiming that blacks didn't have rights, and slavery is therefor ethical. Both positions are fallacious, as they require special pleading.
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Once again, you proved nothing.

"The moon is made of green cheese."

Does this statement ^^ prove that the moon is made of green cheese? No? Then how does your statement prove anything?
 
Old Sarge said:
You are welcome. Now that we know you were wrong about one it stands to reason you are wrong about the other. BTW Princton University and numerous medical publications also say you are wrong. Human life begins at conception sp technically it is an unborn baby.
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Of course I'm not wrong about the stages of human development.

The unborn are not yet babies or children...and they may never achieve those stages, depending on miscarriage, deformity, abortion, etc. So you can see why it's improper to refer to them that way.

When you qualify it it with 'unborn', then it's accurate.
 
Re: If your Snark be a Boojum!

iguanaman said:
We have plenty of ways to determine humanity and the brain dead are terminated because they are also not human anymore. To profess that having human cells automatically makes you human is degrading to humanity.
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Comparing a developing human to a brain-dead individual, then claiming that what I explained is somehow degrading is hilariously dishonest.

A brain-dead individual is still human, so long as the cells which make up that human are also alive. Much like the psychopathic and horribly dishonest comparison to a tumor cell, the differences between a brain-dead individual and a developing unborn human are legion. The brain-dead individual, as of now, cannot recover, while violence is required to murder the unborn human.

Have you ever stopped to consider that advocating that unborn humans can be murdered is "degrading to society"?
 
Re: If your Snark be a Boojum!

Raelia said:
Have you ever stopped to consider that advocating that unborn humans can be murdered is "degrading to society"?
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who here is factually advocating that? quote them doing so, thanks!
:popcorn2:
 
Re: If your Snark be a Boojum!

Raelia said:
Comparing a developing human to a brain-dead individual, then claiming that what I explained is somehow degrading is hilariously dishonest.

A brain-dead individual is still human, so long as the cells which make up that human are also alive. Much like the psychopathic and horribly dishonest comparison to a tumor cell, the differences between a brain-dead individual and a developing unborn human are legion. The brain-dead individual, as of now, cannot recover, while violence is required to murder the unborn human.
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Hmmm, sounds exactly like "special pleading."

It's special pleading because your argument is that some people should be treated differently by others.
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Re: Can we get a more detailed explanation?

Lursa said:
And if that were true, you could source it. And you dont. So since there is only your claim, it's no more than personal opinion on your part that the unborn are entitled to rights.
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It's an entire philosophy. You could start by attempting to understand the Non-Aggression Principal, then you could research First Principles. That's the order I started in, anyway. Of course, I don't doubt that your mind isn't open enough to research dissenting ideas.
Lursa said:
I can write 'the moon is made of green cheese,' that doesnt make it true.

Works for me!

We have no reason for further discussion. Your lack of hypocrisy is refreshing here in this sub-forum.
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False parallel, there's no explanatory or demonstrable power behind that claim, while I've explained Ethics at length.
 
Lursa said:
You proved nothing, refuted nothing, because you offered zero beyond your personal opinion.

But I no longer care if you do. You've written it enough now...and been unable to support it...so that it's very clear.

People can read it and make up their own minds.
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Your stating this after I've practically written three essays on the subject directly to you only shows that you've never bothered to read or consider the ideas presented, only that you're here to talk AT people instead of TO them.
 
Lursa said:
Who give a ****? Do you want to live in another country? Which other countries have the same freedoms as we do here in the US? WHy would you compare us to something less in an attempt to win an argument? That's an automatic fail.
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Notice more far leaning left countries have more restrictive views on abortion. Chew on that.
 
Re: Can we get a more detailed explanation?

Raelia said:
It's an entire philosophy. You could start by attempting to understand the Non-Aggression Principal, then you could research First Principles. That's the order I started in, anyway. Of course, I don't doubt that your mind isn't open enough to research dissenting ideas.

False parallel, there's no explanatory or demonstrable power behind that claim, while I've explained Ethics at length.
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I have taken philosophy and studied ethics.

What's interesting is that you seem to believe that just because you accept a particular philosophy regarding ethics, that everyone should accept it. You are so blindingly accepting of it that you have reduced it to the same influence as religion: which can be very strong but also very wrong.

I can explain all day long why I believe the moon is made of green cheese. However when it comes to demonstrable...you have done no such thing for explaining why the unborn are entitled to rights. Biology is not a reason...science confers no ethics.
 
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Bucky said:
Notice more far leaning left countries have more restrictive views on abortion. Chew on that.
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Why would I care? If they're wrong, they're wrong. I dont blindly follow anyone or anything.
 
Raelia said:
Your stating this after I've practically written three essays on the subject directly to you only shows that you've never bothered to read or consider the ideas presented, only that you're here to talk AT people instead of TO them.
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Of course I have (in many previous venues, like college for instance). Just because I refuse to validate them doesnt mean I'm unaware of them.

And unsourced essays mean nothing more than if I wrote an essay on the moon being made of green cheese.

If I posted an essay on that 3 different times here...would it make it more valid?

If your ethical view was so intrinsic in humanity, so globally recognized, elective abortion would not be legal in most countries to some extent. This is fact, this is demonstrable proof that your opinion is not correct.
 
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Raelia said:
Your stating this after I've practically written three essays on the subject directly to you only shows that you've never bothered to read or consider the ideas presented, only that you're here to talk AT people instead of TO them.
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No it shows your posts are failing at every turn and multiple posters have easily destroyed them with facts :shrug:

When you can support any of your claims with more than your feelings let us know, thanks!
 
Lursa said:
Once again, you proved nothing.

"The moon is made of green cheese."

Does this statement ^^ prove that the moon is made of green cheese? No? Then how does your statement prove anything?
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That claim holds no explanatory or demonstrable power. I've explained my position and the ethics involved at length. Your inability or unwillingness to understand does not mean nothing was proven, it only means you didn't want to see anything proven.
 
Bucky said:
Notice more far leaning left countries have more restrictive views on abortion. Chew on that.
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if true why would that bother anybody??? LMAO

in fact is shows how monumentally stupid the people are when they try to paint this as a right/left issue :lamo
 
Re: If your Snark be a Boojum!

Lursa said:
Hmmm, sounds exactly like "special pleading."
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Sounds more like you have no idea what special pleading is. I literally said that they're still human, and didn't advocate that their rights would be any different.

I maintain my stance that you're not here for discussion.
 
Raelia said:
That claim holds no explanatory or demonstrable power..
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exactly neither did yours . . .some of your statements are factually wrong and the rest are based on your feelings/opinions that you cant support LOL
 
Re: If your Snark be a Boojum!

Raelia said:
Sounds more like you have no idea what special pleading is. I literally said that they're still human, and didn't advocate that their rights would be any different.

I maintain my stance that you're not here for discussion.
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and it will be just another "stance" you cant support with any facts or sound logic . . . :)
 
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