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Creating Terrorists, Why do we continue to do it?

Catawba said:
Remind me again where I said Iraqis attacked us on 9/11. Of the 45 countries with terrorists, Iraq was one where there were none.
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you said our actions breed terrorism
you said we have killed 100,000 Iraqi's.
conclusion easily drawn

where are the Japanese terrorists after WW II?
where are the German terrorists after WW II?
where are the American indian terrorists? if any deserve to be driven to terrorism, surely it is them.

Face it muslim extremists are animals
Muslim leaders oppress their people, making them live dire and hopeless lives of ignorance and despair
that results is terrorism. we are just a convenient target
they should be killing their own leadership
 
ScummyD said:
You don't even understand the most basic aspects of our enemies, as you have done well to prove in this thread, so saying "exactly" is kind of comical.

We are seeing just how idiotic your law enforcement approach is in handing the Christmas day bomber a lawyer and common civilian rights. He promptly stopped speaking and we gained no intelligence.
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Intelligence, ha! Like info to lead you to their home base? :rofl

That's just it, there is no home base. That is the difference between this and past wars that is not getting though to many. There is no home base! The terrorist are spread out around the world in at least 45 countries including our own. Remember the marine that wiped out a bunch of folks on the military base. It is why a relatively small grassroots bunch of thugs have been able to make the people of the most powerful nation on the planet as skeered as little girls! They do it all with no force of planes or ships, and use homemade bombs.

This is a grassroots organization that has an easy time of recruitment due to the foreign policy of invasion and occupation with the killing of innocent civilians. The fact they have been able to increase their numbers during our 8 years of war on terror is a testament to that.
 
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You know what? Even if all this is true, it doesn't necessarily follow that we shouldn't have done the things which lead to terrorist recruitment.

If you'd like to have our foreign policy dictated by what pleases murderous Medieval fanatics, then that's your problem.
 
Harshaw said:
You know what? Even if all this is true, it doesn't necessarily follow that we shouldn't have done the things which lead to terrorist recruitment.

If you'd like to have our foreign policy dictated by what pleases murderous Medieval fanatics, then that's your problem.
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That's one reason why I didn't vote for the man. You can't sit around fretting over how people think of you, because if you do, they'll view you as a tool, a useful idiot.

We need to do what we need to do, not whatever makes everyone else happy.
 
ScummyD said:
We all know I absolutely thrashed you in this debate and destroyed your one dimensional understanding of this issue, but you don't have to resort to making stuff up and hurling false accusations which are contrary to what I said in this very thread.

In your mind possibly. They have stated in their declaration of war that their greatest reason was our occupation of their holy lands.

You have provided far less authoritative evidence than that.

They object to our presence in the holy lands because we are infidels despoiling their holy lands with our foul and dirty presence.
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But bombing their lands and their people they have no problem with......
Right! :rofl :rofl
 
DeeJayH said:
you said our actions breed terrorism
you said we have killed 100,000 Iraqi's.
conclusion easily drawn

where are the Japanese terrorists after WW II?
where are the German terrorists after WW II?
where are the American indian terrorists? if any deserve to be driven to terrorism, surely it is them.


The difference being Japan and Germany invaded other countries, our invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq were not based on their invasion of other countries. The American Indians we decimated to the point where they could no longer be a threat. But if you remember, they did not go quietly into the night either.

You saw America's reaction to just having 3,000 people. Imagine having a foreign force kill 100,000 and they have them occupy your holy lands.

Face it muslim extremists are animals

Of course, just as American extremists are animals.

Muslim leaders oppress their people, making them live dire and hopeless lives of ignorance and despairthat results is terrorism. we are just a convenient target
they should be killing their own leadership
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All but one of the terrorists on 9/11 were Saudi. Are you trying to tell me they were forced to "live dire and hopeless lives of ignorance and despair?"
 
Harshaw said:
You know what? Even if all this is true, it doesn't necessarily follow that we shouldn't have done the things which lead to terrorist recruitment.

If you'd like to have our foreign policy dictated by what pleases murderous Medieval fanatics, then that's your problem.
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You are missing my point. I don't give a crap about the terrorists. My problem is that our foreign policy has cost us 5,000 lives and 3 trillion dollars of taxpayer debt, and it has been counter productive for the last 8 years.

Our foreign policy has made us both poorer and less secure while the terrorists have grown. We are playing right into Bin Laden's plan.
 
Catawba said:
You are missing my point. I don't give a crap about the terrorists. My problem is that our foreign policy has cost us 5,000 lives and 3 trillion dollars of taxpayer debt, and it has been counter productive for the last 8 years.

Our foreign policy has made us both poorer and less secure while the terrorists have grown. We are playing right into Bin Laden's plan.
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Nope. Based on this response, I got your number squarely.
 
Catawba said:
Instead of just guessing what the Rand report stated, you know you might try actually reading it. They did look at al Qaeda, and found that our 8 year war has not diminished their capabilities. That's what is meant by "counter productive" term I used, and the reason the Rand Corp. concluded our war on terror has been a failure.
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Congrats on ignoring 95% of my post. I'm not "guessing" what the RAND report stated, I'm pointing out an obvious logical flaw. Looking at what worked in the past is only useful for planning the future if those past incidents resemble the present situation.

By all means, feel free to ignore this and simply respond with more "Oh but the Conservative RAND institute says the war is a failure!" as if your faith in this study isn't simply based on the fact that it says what you want it to say.
 
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RightinNYC said:
Congrats on ignoring 95% of my post. I'm not "guessing" what the RAND report stated, I'm pointing out an obvious logical flaw. Looking at what worked in the past is only useful for planning the future if those past incidents resemble the present situation.
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2006 al Qaeda does not resemble the 2010 al Qaeda huh. What do you see as the unique differences?

What study of terrorist groups do you look to for guidance that is more recent and thorough then the 2008 Rand Report to the Pentagon?
 
Baseless Accusations and Falsehoods

Catawba said:
You ignore their statement of war because it doesn't fit with your world view of our occupation of other countries that never attacked us. You still buy that they just hate freedom!

According to you, they only attacked us because of our western civilization.
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As I said, you are making things up and spouting falsehoods.

Now let me dismantle and destroy the strawman you attempt to prop up here and prove that you either 1.) Never read my previous comments in this thread or 2.) Read them and so are willfully ignoring them and lying about what I have said and my position on this issue.

Either way it's disgraceful on your part. Please don't do it again.

Catawba said:
That, together with our setting up military bases in holy their lands and our military support of Israel.

They've told us that is why they attacked us. They've made no secret of the reasons for their attack.
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ScummyD said:
They have also told us that they attack us because of our democratic culture.
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Catawba said:
"The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places.
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ScummyD said:
I originally stated that radical Islamists also attack us because of our democratic culture. You asked for evidence. I provided evidence including bin Laden's own words as cited in the source you provided yet didn't seem to fully understand and none of which you refuted.
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ScummyD said:
You are ignoring the extensive writings of bin Laden and his man al-Zawahiri wherein they give multiple justifications for their violence against us including the nature of our democratic culture and NOT just our actions in Muslim lands.

I never denied that radical Islamists attack us because of our actions in Muslim lands, but simply noted the FACT that they also justify their attacks against us based on a vehement opposition to our democratic culture,
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What about ALSO and MULTIPLE do you not understand???

So, as the class can clearly see what you say about me in the first quote to start this post is utter rubbish!

In case you are not familiar with these words:
al⋅so
 
–adverb
1. in addition; too; besides; as well: He was thin, and he was also tall.
2. likewise; in the same manner: Since you're having another cup of coffee, I'll have one also.

mul⋅ti⋅ple
 
–adjective
1. consisting of, having, or involving several or many individuals, parts, elements, relations, etc.; manifold.

American Heritage Dictionary​
In the future please take the time to actually read my comments or don't bother responding. Do not make things up and falsely attribute them to me.
 
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Catawba said:
2006 al Qaeda does not resemble the 2010 al Qaeda huh. What do you see as the unique differences?

What study of terrorist groups do you look to for guidance that is more recent and thorough then the 2008 Rand Report to the Pentagon?
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Reread my post. The point is that neither 2006 nor 2010 AQ resembles the 650-odd terrorist groups that they analyzed. RAND itself explicitly acknowledges this, noting that the most common result (political incorporation) is not on the table with AQ.

edit: To prevent any further misinterpretations, here's an analogy.

Imagine that you're facing the 2007 credit crisis. You want to get some ideas for how to go forward, so you commission a study looking at several hundred businesses that faced credit difficulties oover the past 40 years. That group is largely populated with small companies facing individual problems. The current crisis is systemic, involving all aspects of the economy.

How useful is that study in determining what to do about the 07 credit crisis? Not very.
 
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Catawba said:
ScummyD said:
You don't even understand the most basic aspects of our enemies, as you have done well to prove in this thread, so saying "exactly" is kind of comical.

We are seeing just how idiotic your law enforcement approach is in handing the Christmas day bomber a lawyer and common civilian rights. He promptly stopped speaking and we gained no intelligence.
Click to expand...
Intelligence, ha! Like info to lead you to their home base? :rofl

That's just it, there is no home base. That is the difference between this and past wars that is not getting though to many. There is no home base!
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Once more you are making things up.

I never said they have a homebase. You brought that up as a strawman. You are the master of the strawman when you get thrashed in a debate.

By handing the terrorist a lawyer and allowing him the right to remain silent we are unable to gain valuable intelligence about who exactly trained him, who exactly funded his operation, who exactly crafted his bomb, names of fellow terrorists, . . .etc. I never said anything about a homebase and that was not my point.

Stop making pathetic attempts to prop up strawmen arguments which are easily destroyed and shown for the sham that they are with the very posts in this thread.

This is getting comical!:lol:
 
Re: Baseless Accusations and Falsehoods

ScummyD said:
They have also told us that they attack us because of our democratic culture.
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I have not seen the words Democratic culture in Bin Laden's Fatwa. It is not the concept of Democratic culture they dislike, it is the results of our Democratic culture they dislike..... the occupying of their holy lands.

They list it as their greatest reason in their declaration of war which I have quoted and linked.

Let me see your quote and link where they say they attacked us due to our "Democratic culture."
 
Re: Baseless Accusations and Falsehoods

Catawba said:
I have not seen the words Democratic culture in Bin Laden's Fatwa. It is not the concept of Democratic culture they dislike, it is the results of our Democratic culture they dislike..... the occupying of their holy lands.

They list it as their greatest reason in their declaration of war which I have quoted and linked.

Let me see your quote and link where they say they attacked us due to our "Democratic culture."
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All this has already been refuted and explained in detail. Your are spinning circles and grasping at straws.

I find a comment by a member in another thread appropriate here in describing your behavior:
obvious Child said:
This much is true. You aren't here for debate. You are here to soapbox and ignore everyone who refutes you.
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RightinNYC said:
Reread my post. The point is that neither 2006 nor 2010 AQ resembles the 650-odd terrorist groups that they analyzed. RAND itself explicitly acknowledges this, noting that the most common result (political incorporation) is not on the table with AQ.

Al Qaeda is one of the terrorist groups they studied through 2006.

edit: To prevent any further misinterpretations, here's an analogy.

Imagine that you're facing the 2007 credit crisis. You want to get some ideas for how to go forward, so you commission a study looking at several hundred businesses that faced credit difficulties oover the past 40 years. That group is largely populated with small companies facing individual problems. The current crisis is systemic, involving all aspects of the economy.

How useful is that study in determining what to do about the 07 credit crisis? Not very.
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Your analogy is incorrect. The Rand study included the same group that we are dealing with today.

"These findings suggest that the U.S. approach to countering al Qa'ida has focused far too much on the use of military force. Instead, policing and intelligence should be the backbone of U.S. efforts."
RAND Research Brief | How Terrorist Groups End: Implications for Countering al Qa'ida
 
Re: Baseless Accusations and Falsehoods

ScummyD said:
All this has already been refuted and explained in detail. Your are spinning circles and grasping at straws.
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I am not spinning. You have not provided evidence for your claim. It is easy enough for you disprove if you are correct.

Provide the linked quote from Bin Laden or al Qaeda where they specifically state that "democratic culture" is the reason they attack us.
 
Catawba said:
Intelligence, ha! Like info to lead you to their home base? :rofl

That's just it, there is no home base. That is the difference between this and past wars that is not getting though to many. There is no home base! The terrorist are spread out around the world in at least 45 countries including our own. Remember the marine that wiped out a bunch of folks on the military base. It is why a relatively small grassroots bunch of thugs have been able to make the people of the most powerful nation on the planet as skeered as little girls! They do it all with no force of planes or ships, and use homemade bombs.

This is a grassroots organization that has an easy time of recruitment due to the foreign policy of invasion and occupation with the killing of innocent civilians. The fact they have been able to increase their numbers during our 8 years of war on terror is a testament to that.
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your wording betrays, you. I would have to assume you are the cowardly fearful, as I have yet to meet anybody who is afraid
project all you want. You are the weak link in america
Catawba said:
The difference being Japan and Germany invaded other countries, our invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq were not based on their invasion of other countries. The American Indians we decimated to the point where they could no longer be a threat. But if you remember, they did not go quietly into the night either.
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More than 100,000 of each were Killed, we occupied their lands
where are the terrorist activities. There are none because you draw an irrelevant factually incorrect answer to suit your agenda

as to the indians, lets go back up to the first quote, you know where you say

It is why a relatively small grassroots bunch of thugshave been able to make the people of the most powerful nation on the planet as skeered as little girls!
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seems you have failed with your own words
there were plenty of Germans, there were plenty of Japanese, both killed and survived and OCCUPIED

YET NO TERRORIST ACTS
time to wake up to reality. History does not support you IN THE LEAST

does anyone want a binky cause they is skeered?
 
DeeJayH said:
your wording betrays, you. I would have to assume you are the cowardly fearful, as I have yet to meet anybody who is afraid project all you want.
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LOL! Afraid of what? We are the most powerful nation on the planet. The terrorists have no army, no navy, and no air force.

What are people so skeered of? Just like in Vietnam when people were wringing their hands over the domino theory. How'd that turn out? If I am not mistaken we have been trading partners with the evil communist empire of Vietnam for decades!

:rofl
 
Catawba said:
LOL! Afraid of what? We are the most powerful nation on the planet. The terrorists have no army, no navy, and no air force.
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The fact that Al Qaeda is stateless is what makes them so potent. They have no borders. They have no uniforms. Their attacks have no immediate return address. Foes like Iran and North Korea are more predictable because their regimes that are trying to stay in power, not radical organizations bent on achieving extremist objectives. If Al Qaeda seeks power, it is to apply Sharia law and challenge Secular governments; if they seek money, it is to use to buy weapons to continue the fight against the West; these are not people that can be bartered with. And people like you are only helping them achieve their goals.


Catawba said:
What are people so skeered of? Just like in Vietnam when people were wringing their hands over the domino theory. How'd that turn out? If I am not mistaken we have been trading partners with the evil communist empire of Vietnam for decades!
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The Domino Theory was real to an extent. If we had not intervened in Korea and had dithered in Vietnam then we would have showed the Second World that the West's resolve was weak and our commitment little. Instead, we showed how much we would put at stake even to preserve a little backward country like South Vietnam, where defeat seemed very much an inevitability.

The poor handling and psychologically impairing details of the war have been well documented so there is really no need to discuss that here. In strategic terms, America's commitment in South-East Asia and the Korean Peninsula showed the immense cost it would take the Reds to glean minor victories in areas that were geographically and economically susceptible to Communism. Vietnam was hardly a victory since they feuded with their Cambodian neighbor which eventually spiraled into the Third IndoChina War. My overarching point is that our commitment in Vietnam was not fruitless nor was the Domino Theory somehow debunked or proved false by our defeat there.
 
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Tubub said:
The fact that Al Qaeda is stateless is what makes them so potent. They have no borders. They have no uniforms. Their attacks have no immediate return address. Foes like Iran and North Korea are more predictable because their regimes that are trying to stay in power, not radical organizations bent on achieving extremist objectives. If Al Qaeda seeks power, it is to apply Sharia law and challenge Secular governments; if they seek money, it is to use to buy weapons to continue the fight against the West; these are not people that can be bartered with. And people like you are only helping them achieve their goals.

That is why they can not be defeated in the normal war fashion. Our "war on terror" is a ridiculous notion. That is why we have been counter productive for the last 8 years. As the Rand Report indicated, a smaller military footprint and more police and intelligence agency approach is what is needed.

Our big military footprint, due to our irrational fears only led to the killing of innocent civilians which led to easier recruitment of new terrorists.

Its amazing to me that also due to our little school girl fears, that we bought into the fear mongering of Bush when there were 45 countries where al Qaeda were, we attacked Iraq, the one country where there weren't any.




The Domino Theory was real to an extent.

We lost the war and the world was not taken over by communism. And we lost it for the same exact reason we are losing the war on terrorism. The people we are supposedly "protecting" were having more deaths and property damage by us than the supposed enemy, so we do not get their support and even have some betray us. It is why we have to militarily dominate the countries where we set up our puppet governments to protect them from their own people.

The poor handling and psychologically impairing details of the war have been well documented so there is really no need to discuss that here. In strategic terms, America's commitment in South-East Asia and the Korean Peninsula showed the immense cost it would take the Reds to glean minor victories in areas that were geographically and economically susceptible to Communism. Vietnam was hardly a victory since they feuded with their Cambodian neighbor which eventually spiraled into the Third IndoChina War. My overarching point is that our commitment in Vietnam was not fruitless nor was the Domino Theory somehow debunked or proved false by our defeat there.
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I've heard the excuses before. The bottom line is that 50,000 lives were lost due to our irrational fears. And we have done business with the evil communist empire for decades since we lost the war.
 
I think the terrorists and their supporters should be thinking more about their actions, not ours. They should realize that if they hijack several of our civilian aircraft full of innocent families and crash the planes into buildings with more innocent people, then we will go to enormous efforts to destroy them and take over a few countries that are supporting them. Otherwise we mind our own business (as far as attacking and invading countries go).
 
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