Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum[w47

[clownboy]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

If they rule the way you believe they will, we wouldn't know until the next case comes up regarding same sex couples and access to marriage whether the SCOTUS would choose to review it again. The thing is, I know they can choose to do so. I have proof in history that the SCOTUS has reviewed cases they had already ruled upon in the past and overturned those past rulings.

No, if they rule as I expect they will, we won't have to wait. There will be an immediate impact. The laws that are in question will be fully in force and other states will, within the year, pass similar law. You won't have a chance to get to another ruling, it'll be all done but for the weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It's the same with first cousin marriage. Thought the "science" that was behind the bans from the 1880s until the 1920s has been largely debunked, none of those states have since changed their law. The early laws against first cousin marriage are still in force and have not changed (where enacted). Nor will the court hear the issue.

How could someone not understand that I was talking about other than allowing same sex couples to marry? It shouldn't have been that hard to figure out. I was talking about how it was wrong to use a voter referendum to overturn or put into place laws that restrict some group and could easily be seen as unconstitutional.

So, let's try this again. Tell me when any laws restricting marriage, besides in the case of same sex couples, were "put up to the people" and not their representatives.

Well, maybe because I answered precisely what you asked? The moving of the goal posts came later when you didn't like the answer. You won't like the answer to your altered question either - because voter referendums are a recent thing in political history and are not allowed nationwide.

Civil unions are not the same as marriage and very few states even proposed them. In fact, civil unions have never been proposed at a federal level to get any benefits, let alone full benefits, of marriage. And there are states that have banned same sex couples from being recognized in any form that is similar to marriage. It is just plain bull to even suggest that civil unions have been suggested in a way where they are "everything but marriage" in a way that matters across the US. This has only happened in a few states and most of those don't even really give all the benefits of marriage. And they still are not recognized by the federal government.

Legal civil unions for same sex couples is "separate but equal" even if it were completely "equal", and a waste of time and money to do. It would also set back the fight to get same sex marriage recognition, particularly when put into place in only a few states, as it is now. Opposite sex couples do not own the word "marriage", nor do the religious. It is a word that has had its meaning changed many times, sometimes subtly, other times overtly, and it will likely change more. One of those changes should be and eventually will be including same sex couples throughout our nation.

So, you don't really care about the "benefits", and even if that were offerred/provided through civil union, you'd still be dissatisfied? You have to have the title, right? That attitude is what will lose the argument for you every time in the public arena. When you make, and stick to, the argument about equal rights, you have some traction. But arguing about the title, that's where you lose folks.

But again, we'll see soon enough who has the best crystal ball kung-fu.

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

Most Circuit rulings are overturned NP. And that has been true for a long time.

The 9th is almost always below at least one, if not more, circuits overturned percentage. Funny how you don't put this out.

Should the Ninth Circuit be Judged by Reversal Rates?

And the "Stat Pack" referenced:

Stat Pack : SCOTUSblog

So, in 2010, the 5th and 6th Circuit courts were overturned at a higher percent than the 9th. Who is covered under those two Appeals Courts? The 5th has Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi. Not exactly liberal states. The 6th has Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio, and Tennessee.

And if you're going to play the numbers game, then maybe you should also realize that the 9th Court includes the most states of any other Appeals Court, including Alaska, Arizona, California, Nevada, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, and Washington.

U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals: U.S. Supreme Court again rejects most 9th Circuit decisions - Los Angeles Times


U.S. Supreme Court again rejects most decisions by the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

It was another bruising year for the liberal judges of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals as the Supreme Court overturned the majority of their decisions, at times sharply criticizing their legal reasoning.

Appeals from the nine Western states of the circuit dominated the high court's docket, as usual, supplying more than 30% of the 84 cases taken up by the justices during the term that ended last month.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

Since you have 9 justices they are never going to be perfectly balanced...FDR tried to stuff them with Liberals.......actually right now they are about as balanced as you can get 4-4 and one swing vote in Kennedy......You don't like that court because it usually does not rule for the far left decisions of the 9th circuit which are so radical they are usually overturned......that includes the rediciculous decision on the California ref.

FDR was a tyrant and his little monkeying around with the court is what set off this whole chain of politicizing our court system. We honestly need to stop that. It's not good for the Republic given the power of the courts. They must remain impartial

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals: U.S. Supreme Court again rejects most 9th Circuit decisions - Los Angeles Times


U.S. Supreme Court again rejects most decisions by the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

It was another bruising year for the liberal judges of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals as the Supreme Court overturned the majority of their decisions, at times sharply criticizing their legal reasoning.

Appeals from the nine Western states of the circuit dominated the high court's docket, as usual, supplying more than 30% of the 84 cases taken up by the justices during the term that ended last month.

They send the most cases to the Court, but they still do not have the highest overturn rate most years. They should send the most cases to the Court, since they have the most people under their jurisdiction.

 

[clownboy]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

They send the most cases to the Court, but they still do not have the highest overturn rate most years. They should send the most cases to the Court, since they have the most people under their jurisdiction.

You're arguing semantics (with incomplete data - maybe, maybe I just missed the rest). The 9th sends the most cases to the SCOTUS, so they can lose far more before having, percentage wise, the highest overturn rate. However, they do have the highest number of overturns, and that is what is being said here.

As for the data, any chance you have the years in a table for comparison, maybe going back before 2004 as well?

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

No, if they rule as I expect they will, we won't have to wait. There will be an immediate impact. The laws that are in question will be fully in force and other states will, within the year, pass similar law. You won't have a chance to get to another ruling, it'll be all done but for the weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The laws in question are already in full force. In those states with same sex marriage bans, including California, same sex couples cannot currently get legally married.

That does not change the fact that the SCOTUS could still take a case involving same sex couples being banned from entering into marriage by a state in the future should they not overturn all the bans or even Prop 8.

It's the same with first cousin marriage. Thought the "science" that was behind the bans from the 1880s until the 1920s has been largely debunked, none of those states have since changed their law. The early laws against first cousin marriage are still in force and have not changed (where enacted). Nor will the court hear the issue.

Show me a SCOTUS case or even one they turned down involving first cousins getting married in the last 30 years. If the law isn't challenged, the SCOTUS cannot rule on it. And all SCOTUS are taken only so far. Past rulings can be considered and even referred to in SCOTUS rulings, but those rulings cannot strike down laws that have nothing to do with the actual case, such as first cousins getting married.

Just so you know, about half the states in this country allow first cousins to legally marry. And the federal government recognizes every single one of those marriages.

Well, maybe because I answered precisely what you asked? The moving of the goal posts came later when you didn't like the answer. You won't like the answer to your altered question either - because voter referendums are a recent thing in political history and are not allowed nationwide.

Ever wonder why they aren't allowed nationwide? Perhaps because we weren't meant to be a direct democracy. It leads to mob rule or tyranny of the majority.

People are stupid. Politicians are corrupt but people are stupid. Politicians at least can see the tide turning. People set in their ways tend to miss it. This is the case with same sex marriage.

So, you don't really care about the "benefits", and even if that were offerred/provided through civil union, you'd still be dissatisfied? You have to have the title, right? That attitude is what will lose the argument for you every time in the public arena. When you make, and stick to, the argument about equal rights, you have some traction. But arguing about the title, that's where you lose folks.

But again, we'll see soon enough who has the best crystal ball kung-fu.

I'm old enough to realize that instant gratification that only gives me part of what I am owed is not enough to justify a longer fight for what is owed or worse, not getting what I deserve.

Of course, I'm not homosexual and already legally married. I would never fault anyone for taking what they can get. I am still going to fight for equal rights. In this case, that is full legal marriage to same sex couples across the country.

Oh, and since no civil unions give full legal marriage rights and benefits, it is not the same and we might as well fight for the legal marriage. The middle step isn't necessary and is a waste of government time and taxpayer money unnecessarily. There is about as much chance of getting civil unions that are everything but named marriage in many of the states as there is access to marriage for same sex couples. So might as well go for legal marriage access.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

You're arguing semantics (with incomplete data - maybe, maybe I just missed the rest). The 9th sends the most cases to the SCOTUS, so they can lose far more before having, percentage wise, the highest overturn rate. However, they do have the highest number of overturns, and that is what is being said here.

As for the data, any chance you have the years in a table for comparison, maybe going back before 2004 as well?

I posted the data for the SCOTUS for the years they have on their site. If you want that info, you find it.

This isn't semantics. It is about the fact that the 9th is no more out of touch with the country than any other Appeals Court. They are not activist judges just because some don't like their rulings.

Let me ask you something. Does the 9th have a high amount of cases where the SCOTUS unanimously overturns their decisions? Are they the only ones who have their decisions unanimously overturned? What about when they affirm their decisions? Is there much disagreement for most of those affirmed?

We could just let the SCOTUS decide if the 9th sends them too many damn cases before we automatically call them "activist judges" or "they're the most overturned Appeals Court". It would be even better if people would actually just check their facts and reasons why they have the highest number of cases overturned, yet still not the highest percent.

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

They send the most cases to the Court, but they still do not have the highest overturn rate most years. They should send the most cases to the Court, since they have the most people under their jurisdiction.

Try this one OK...I don't know how to make it any clearer.

The issue: Rulings of 9th Circuit Court - USATODAY.com


However, the Federal Circuit had only 18 cases reversed during that period, meaning the number of reversals of the 9th Circuit Court was much higher.

 

[Redress]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

Try this one OK...I don't know how to make it any clearer.

The issue: Rulings of 9th Circuit Court - USATODAY.com


However, the Federal Circuit had only 18 cases reversed during that period, meaning the number of reversals of the 9th Circuit Court was much higher.

From your source(hint: reading is gud):

While the court has a history of being the most overturned, University of Pittsburgh law professor Arthur Hellman said that is to be expected.
The 9th Circuit Court is the largest, with a jurisdiction of about 20 percent of the nation's population, Hellman said. Its jurisdiction includes Arizona, California, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Montana, Alaska and Hawaii.
There are 13 judicial circuits in the United States.
As the largest circuit court, it may be expected that the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals would be overturned the most because the Supreme Court takes on more of its cases than those of any other circuit court.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

Try this one OK...I don't know how to make it any clearer.

The issue: Rulings of 9th Circuit Court - USATODAY.com


However, the Federal Circuit had only 18 cases reversed during that period, meaning the number of reversals of the 9th Circuit Court was much higher.

OMG. Look, the 9th covers more states and more people than any other Appeals Court. Plus, they have more cases, by far, accepted by the SCOTUS than any other Circuit. They still have a lower percent overturned and it isn't like they are getting all of those overturned by a unanimous SCOTUS decision every time or affirmed by less than a unanimous SCOTUS decision every single time.

Like I said before, maybe we should just let the SCOTUS decide if the 9th sends them too many damn cases and stop making crap up to fit agendas. It has absolutely nothing to do with this case.

Oh, and just so we are aware, many of the decisions from the 9th, at least last year, that were reversed had to do with rights of the accused or police action and I believe one had to do with some credit card rule. Not exactly high profile cases to begin with, particularly those that were unanimously reversed.

 

[clownboy]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

I posted the data for the SCOTUS for the years they have on their site. If you want that info, you find it.

I saw that, that's why I asked you for further data, or maybe data that we didn't have to sort through session by session. You could have just said you didn't have it.

This isn't semantics. It is about the fact that the 9th is no more out of touch with the country than any other Appeals Court. They are not activist judges just because some don't like their rulings.

You're moving the goal posts again. My semantics comment applied to your reframing of the issue. Highest percentage of overturns is not the same as highest number of overturns. You're attempts to substitute one for the other was done through - semantics.

Now, go back and read what I've posted. Where did I say they were "activist judges" on the Ninth? I also haven't posted that they are "out of touch with the country", but I do believe they are out of touch with the Western states.

Let me ask you something. Does the 9th have a high amount of cases where the SCOTUS unanimously overturns their decisions? Are they the only ones who have their decisions unanimously overturned? What about when they affirm their decisions? Is there much disagreement for most of those affirmed?

Got me, you're the one to claim the true knowledge of their case rates. Go ahead tell us, we can discuss what that data might mean once you present it.

We could just let the SCOTUS decide if the 9th sends them too many damn cases before we automatically call them "activist judges" or "they're the most overturned Appeals Court". It would be even better if people would actually just check their facts and reasons why they have the highest number of cases overturned, yet still not the highest percent.

Again, you're talking to the wrong fellow on the activist judges thing. But as to the most overturned Appeals court - they are (they have the most decisions overturned - hint: that's not a percentage thing).

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

From your source(hint: reading is gud):

I think the point is why are so many of the decisions reversed why can't thet ever get it right? why do they always make decisions like Ref 8 that favor liberals.....Maybe its because the court is full of liberal judges.......

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

I saw that, that's why I asked you for further data, or maybe data that we didn't have to sort through session by session. You could have just said you didn't have it.

You're moving the goal posts again. My semantics comment applied to your reframing of the issue. Highest percentage of overturns is not the same as highest number of overturns. You're attempts to substitute one for the other was done through - semantics.

Now, go back and read what I've posted. Where did I say they were "activist judges" on the Ninth? I also haven't posted that they are "out of touch with the country", but I do believe they are out of touch with the Western states.

Got me, you're the one to claim the true knowledge of their case rates. Go ahead tell us, we can discuss what that data might mean once you present it.

Again, you're talking to the wrong fellow on the activist judges thing. But as to the most overturned Appeals court - they are (they have the most decisions overturned - hint: that's not a percentage thing).

Then you tell me. What does their having the highest number of decisions reversed have to do with same sex couples being banned from legal marriage in Washington, or any of the western states for that matter?

Oh, and they aren't supposed to be in touch with the western states. They are supposed to rule on the basis of law, particularly within the confines of the US Constitution. If that isn't what the majority of western state citizens want, that's just too bad. If they aren't enough of a majority to make it a federal Constitutional Amendment, then it better not violate any of the other ones or it is the Court's duty to point it out and strike down the laws.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Washington Gay Marriage Law Blocked As Opponents Submit Signatures For Referendum

I think the point is why are so many of the decisions reversed why can't thet ever get it right? why do they always make decisions like Ref 8 that favor liberals.....Maybe its because the court is full of liberal judges.......

They get affirmed quite often actually. In fact, they likely have the most affirmed by the SCOTUS too. Let's look at 2010. 5 affirmed decisions and that is the highest number for all the circuits.

Of course that same year the SCOTUS reversed all of the state court cases they heard. Notice no one ever comments on the states getting it wrong so much.