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To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to [W:207]

Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Yup. One of the things I love most about my faith is that our starting position is "Okay, so, we are going to screw this up."

And all this time I thought that was what punk rock was about....
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

They were just stating the obvious - listening to punk rock is hell.

Thank god there is music
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

He was a preacher, and a pretty conservative one. I probably wouldn't have liked him. And he probably wouldn't like any Christians, being a fundamentalist Jew and all. Given all the death and destruction that Jews have suffered in his name, he might even consider himself a failure. Given the substantial prevalence of less orthodox branches of Judaism, his messages to his own people didn't work out very well either.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

The man could turn water into wine.

So, yeah, that puts Him near the top in my book.

So what, I can turn sunlight into wine if you give me enough time and a grape vine.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

This is based on international church rolls and missionary reports.....not personal interviews.





And now, predictably, you begin with the generalizations and stereotypical accusations. This is where I respectfully decline to respond further. Not all Christians behave this way. You know this and you should be ashamed. Not all Christians belong to some great "collective" mindset as you seem to imply. Would it be fair for me to judge all non-believers based on how a few militant, mouth-foaming atheists behaved here on this discussion board? Or perhaps I should judge all non-believers based on how emperor Nero placed Christians in tar jackets, hung them from posts, and set them ablaze to light the streets of Rome? See how this works?
Well I didnt say that all Christian's behave a certain way, that was all you. BTW so those rolls and missionary reports are accurate? Are you saying that everyone that goes to church believe that jesus was a great man? You dont think that some of those people are just filling in pews because of social reasons?
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

How many struggle with their faith?

Who are these Christians who "never seem to stop there" and "seem compelled" to judge on a "daily basis"? Who are they?

I mean, I go to work and shop at stores and meet new people but never seem to run into these people. So who are they, where are they, and how many of them are there? What's the percentage?
I guess that you live in a bubble separated from reality? How do you feel about same sex marriage? How about women that have abortions?


You want me to link you some meaningless numbers to prove what, that you have your head in a hole?

Christian Testimonials Of Believers Struggling In Their Faith, And How God Brought Victory!

Prayer when Struggling with Faith

I have been to many sermons where struggling with ones faith was the main topic. If you did not know about this then you are either lying or extremely sheltered.
People try to live a life lick what they think jesus taught but everyone falls short since they are not perfect. Im just pointing out one of many mistakes in the bible. On one hand Christian's say that jesus was a man while on Earth, but us humans are not perfect. Yet ole FLuffy up there just told me that jesus never sinned. Which means then that jesus was not a man because man sins according to the bible.

So are you asserting that Christian's dont sin? Are you telling me that Christian's dont judge homosexuality as a sin? According to the teaching of christ you should love everyone just the same as you love jesus. Yet I am not feeling any love here right now from any Christian's. Yep indeed you dont stop there you are compelled to go further and caste judgement. Go ahead and throw that stone..
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

And all this time I thought that was what punk rock was about....

:shrug: I couldn't tell you, I'm a classic rock sort of fella, but can't really name any names.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

I have been to many sermons where struggling with ones faith was the main topic. If you did not know about this then you are either lying or extremely sheltered.

People try to live a life lick what they think jesus taught but everyone falls short since they are not perfect. Im just pointing out one of many mistakes in the bible. On one hand Christian's say that jesus was a man while on Earth, but us humans are not perfect. Yet ole FLuffy up there just told me that jesus never sinned. Which means then that jesus was not a man because man sins according to the bible.

Ignoring the unnecessary, your error here appears to be one of lack of knowledge. According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ was the one sinless man - the one perfect, full man.

So are you asserting that Christian's dont sin? Are you telling me that Christian's dont judge homosexuality as a sin? According to the teaching of christ you should love everyone just the same as you love jesus.

Actually we are called to love them as we love ourselves.

Yet I am not feeling any love here right now from any Christian's.

That is most likely because it seems you are concentrating on exporting sarcasm.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Ignoring the unnecessary, your error here appears to be one of lack of knowledge. According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ was the one sinless man - the one perfect, full man.
Um that is what I just said, are you not paying attention? Jesus is portrayed as sinless yet real mean can make mistakes and only gods do not make mistakes. According then to the bible jesus was never a man but a god.



Actually we are called to love them as we love ourselves.
Yes you are called on to love them yet most Christian's do not. Or are you trying to claim that most Christian's actually do love homosexuals?
Turn to https://net.bible.org/#!bible/1+Corinthians+5 And do what the lord jesus asks of you. You must destroy those that are sexually immoral and give them to satan. Dont you know that a little yeast affects the entire batch of dough?
And how can a Christian love homosexuals when god himself hates them? https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Romans+1 So god made non believers into homosexuals? That really makes no sense to punish a sin with a sin.

That is most likely because it seems you are concentrating on exporting sarcasm.
Honest Christian's admit that they do not live up to the Christian standard. Which cannot be avoided since man lives in a world of sin right? Temptation is around every corner the deceiver is always at work right? Or are you trying to tell me that Christian's are without sin? Face it you cannot throw that rock right?
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Yep, pretty sure, at least according to most reputable modern scholars of antiquity.

In other words, we are not even sure such a man ever existed.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Um that is what I just said, are you not paying attention? Jesus is portrayed as sinless yet real mean can make mistakes and only gods do not make mistakes. According then to the bible jesus was never a man but a god.

Real men can make mistakes. Jesus, too, had the opportunity, and the temptation to sin. He just chose not to. According to the New Testament, Jesus is both God and Man.

Yes you are called on to love them yet most Christian's do not.

In fact, all Christians fail to do this perfectly.

Or are you trying to claim that most Christian's actually do love homosexuals?

I certainly would - as much as we are able. For example, I love homosexuals, including people I have served with, friends, and family members, whom I love dearly.

Turn to https://net.bible.org/#!bible/1+Corinthians+5 And do what the lord Jesus asks of you. You must destroy those that are sexually immoral and give them to satan.

I Cor 5:
Dealing With a Case of Incest
...It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are....


You are incorrect again. Christians are not called upon to kill homosexuals (nor are they called upon to murder those in incestual relationships, which is what this passage is discussing). They are instead called upon to ensure that those who refuse to repent of sin are not able to wrap themselves in the mantle of the church and serve as witnesses by not allowing those people to be part of their community. This concept is drawn from the teachings of Jesus:

Matthew 18:

...15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector...


Dont you know that a little yeast affects the entire batch of dough?

and, again, that was a reference in the verse you cited to the sin of Pride.

And how can a Christian love homosexuals when god himself hates them? https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Romans+1 So god made non believers into homosexuals? That really makes no sense to punish a sin with a sin.

Again, you appear not to have really read the verse you are citing.

Romans 1:

...18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them...

God did not cause anyone to sin - for those who reject Him, their punishment is that they are allowed to sin. These people are leaving and God is letting them go. Nor does God hate them for doing so, but was willing to come and suffer and die for a chance to win back their hearts.

2 Peter 3:

...9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance...

:) Homosexuals no less than adulterers, thieves, and murderers, us all.

Honest Christian's admit that they do not live up to the Christian standard.

right.

Which cannot be avoided since man lives in a world of sin right?

wrong. we make our own choices and are responsible for our sins.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Yep, pretty sure, at least according to most reputable modern scholars of antiquity.

Yeah, the burden of proof that would have to be raised in order to cast serious doubt on the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth is so high that it would pretty much toss out most of what we know of the ancient world.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

This is based on international church rolls and missionary reports.....not personal interviews.





And now, predictably, you begin with the generalizations and stereotypical accusations. This is where I respectfully decline to respond further. Not all Christians behave this way. You know this and you should be ashamed. Not all Christians belong to some great "collective" mindset as you seem to imply. Would it be fair for me to judge all non-believers based on how a few militant, mouth-foaming atheists behaved here on this discussion board? Or perhaps I should judge all non-believers based on how emperor Nero placed Christians in tar jackets, hung them from posts, and set them ablaze to light the streets of Rome? See how this works?

But, he didn't judge all Christians. He judged Christianity... A perfectly reasonable thing to do in a thread discussing the effect of the Jesus notion on the World. Talk about predictable! Typical that a believer would try to shame into silence criticism within the totality of the effect of the Jesus notion.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

But, he didn't judge all Christians. He judged Christianity... A perfectly reasonable thing to do in a thread discussing the effect of the Jesus notion on the World. Talk about predictable! Typical that a believer would try to shame into silence criticism within the totality of the effect of the Jesus notion.

No, what he said was:
Then why do Christians judge homosexuals so readily? Or in many cases judge Atheist's to be evil? Or pretend to know who is going to hell and who is not?

Im ok with Christians spreading their message, that is their prerogative. But they never seem to stop there and seem compelled to judge their neighbors and friends on a daily basis.

What is predictable (and quite funny) is the militant, mouth-foaming atheists here who never fail to circle the wagons and come to the aid of their pals........even when their pals are so obviously wrong in their accusations. :lol:
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

In other words, we are not even sure such a man ever existed.

As certain as we are of the existence of any other number of notable persons of historic antiquity. :shrug:

Are we 100% certain that Buddha existed or Genghis Khan? All that we have to go on is the historic record......and what we have uncovered, most reputable historians agree, points with great likelihood that there was indeed a "Jesus of Nazereth" who lived and taught at the times and in the vary same places that we've read in the New Testament. This has been verified through extra-biblical accounts such as the writings of Roman scholars Tacitus and Josephus, as well as from other historic documents such as the ancient Mishnah.
 
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Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

He's right up there next to Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha). The only reason I think Buddha is greater is that he didn't spark thousands of years of violence with his philosophies.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

SO what would qualify this legend called jesus as being a great man? What exactly did he himself actually do? What makes him so much different than anyone who teaches people stuff?

The only reason that Christian's think that jesus was a great guy is because they think that he was a god and could get them into heaven. It is a selfish want to satisfy the fear of death.

Not only that the basic motivation of christianity and christians to act in a moral way is to get into heaven and avoid hell, at their core selfish motives. All this talk about love and compassion and morals is merely the vehicle by which they reach their ultimate objective and GODDAMMITT if they have to observe these silly things to get there they sure as hell are going to do i!
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

He's right up there next to Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha). The only reason I think Buddha is greater is that he didn't spark thousands of years of violence with his philosophies.

and neither did Jesus.

Whatever violence committed in the name of Christianity was the result of people not following his philosophy rather than following it.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

and neither did Jesus.

Whatever violence committed in the name of Christianity was the result of people not following his philosophy rather than following it.

Look, Jesus and Buddha both had great philosophies and good intentions... All I'm saying is millions weren't killed in the name of Buddhism, and that's the reason, I think Buddha was a greater man, regardless of how good Jesus's intentions were.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Look, Jesus and Buddha both had great philosophies and good intentions... All I'm saying is millions weren't killed in the name of Buddhism, and that's the reason, I think Buddha was a greater man, regardless of how good Jesus's intentions were.

It is your attribution of the violence to the teachings of Jesus that is the issue here.

Since Jesus never set out to form a religion, if you wish to lay any blame on the religion, itself, it would be more accurate to lay such blame on Paul.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

It is your attribution of the violence to the teachings of Jesus that is the issue here.

Since Jesus never set out to form a religion, if you wish to lay any blame on the religion, itself, it would be more accurate to lay such blame on Paul.

ah, I see what you're saying...

My logic isn't really relevant in that way, I guess.

Well, I guess I like Siddhartha's principles better then :)
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

It is your attribution of the violence to the teachings of Jesus that is the issue here.

Since Jesus never set out to form a religion, if you wish to lay any blame on the religion, itself, it would be more accurate to lay such blame on Paul.

So Christians are actually Paulists? Or is that only the "bad" Christians?
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

As certain as we are of the existence of any other number of notable persons of historic antiquity. :shrug:

Are we 100% certain that Buddha existed or Genghis Khan? All that we have to go on is the historic record......and what we have uncovered, most reputable historians agree, points with great likelihood that there was indeed a "Jesus of Nazereth" who lived and taught at the times and in the vary same places that we've read in the New Testament. This has been verified through extra-biblical accounts such as the writings of Roman scholars Tacitus and Josephus, as well as from other historic documents such as the ancient Mishnah.

Huh. I believe there are pretty solid evidences for the existence of Julius Caesar, for instance.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

So Christians are actually Paulists? Or is that only the "bad" Christians?


There are all sorts of influences within Christianity, and Paul put his own stamp on the religion as much as anybody. If it were actually about Jesus' teachings, the Bible would be a tiny thing limited to such teachings. Since The Christian Bible is a massive thing, and since Christian doctrine includes the Old Testament, then it only stands to reason that there are myriad influences besides Jesus.
 
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